Mark Buehrle's Perfect American Chopper

[Kalapse]

So is he one of the top 10 pitchers ever? Context is very important when you want to throw out names of guys that played, like, 100 years ago. And I never brushed him off. I said from the start he was great for that time. Now if you're saying he's one of the best pitchers ever because he has the lowest ERA ever, well, I'll just stay out of it.

Just think of this: the year Ed Walsh won 40 games there were only 8 teams in the American League, the average team OPS was .598, there were 116 total HR hit that season and the league leader in homeruns was Sam Crawford with 7.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Just think of this: the year Ed Walsh won 40 games there were only 8 teams in the American League, the average team OPS was .598, there were 116 total HR hit that season and the league leader in homeruns was Sam Crawford with 7.

 

Exactly. And I consider myself a baseball historian. I love reading about or watching old clips of great players from previous eras. For my money, and I obviously never got to see him live, but from what I've read and what I have been able to see, Willie Mays is the best all-around player of all time. So I can't be accused of dismissing anybody I never saw play.

[WCSox]

Again, he was great for that time. And lol@you would like to see a pitcher today win 40 games or throw 400 innings. I'd like to see Ed Walsh in today's game attempting to keep his ERA below 10.

 

So, do you think that Frank would've had a career .300 average and 500 career HRs in Walsh's era? How are you so convinced that Frank was miles better than Shoeless Joe Jackson?

 

Still LOL at your dismissal of Walsh. Yeah, I'm sure that he'd suck in today's game, as evidenced by his performance among his peers in the early 1900s.

 

So is he one of the top 10 pitchers ever? Context is very important when you want to throw out names of guys that played, like, 100 years ago.

 

Is Frank one of the top 10 hitters ever? Better than Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle, Bonds, Mays, Musial, Williams, Wagner, Cobb, Gwynn, etc.? He's *probably* the best hitter in Sox history, but he very well may not sniff the Top 10 of all time.

 

I said from the start he was great for that time.

 

This appears to be your way of automatically dismissing players simply because they played a long time ago. I could throw that same qualifier on Frank, who had the luxury of playing in a live ball era, complete with small ballparks, lighter bats, lower pitching mounds, diluted pitching talent, and diets/workout regimens that maximized athletic ability.

 

I don't see much evidence that Frank was that much better than his peers than Walsh was among his.

Edited December 7, 2009 by WCSox

[MattZakrowski]

This thread took a weird turn, but Eddie Collins is pretty overlooked.

[Jordan4life_2007]

So, do you think that Frank would've had a career .300 average and 500 career HRs in Walsh's era? How are you so convinced that Frank was miles better than Shoeless Joe Jackson?

 

Still LOL at your dismissal of Walsh. Yeah, I'm sure that he'd suck in today's game, as evidenced by his performance among his peers in the early 1900s.

 

 

 

Is Frank one of the top 10 hitters ever? Better than Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle, Bonds, Mays, Musial, Williams, Wagner, Cobb, Gwynn, etc.? He's *probably* the best hitter in Sox history, but he very well may not sniff the Top 10 of all time.

 

 

 

This appears to be your way of automatically dismissing players simply because they played a long time ago. I could throw that same qualifier on Frank, who had the luxury of playing in a live ball era, complete with small ballparks, lighter bats, lower pitching mounds, diluted pitching talent, and diets/workout regimens that maximized athletic ability.

 

I don't see much evidence that Frank was that much better than his peers than Walsh was among his.

 

Whatever, dude. Frank is by far and away the best player in franchise history. I'm not about to get into some heated debate over a guy who had a microscopic era in a league in which the league leader in HR's hit a whopping 7.

Edited December 8, 2009 by Jordan4life

[WCSox]

Whatever, dude. Frank is by far and away the best player in franchise history. I'm not about to get into some heated debate over a guy who had a microscopic era in a league in which the league leader in HR's hit a whopping 7.

 

Yeah, who cares that he's a Hall of Famer and has the lowest all-time ERA in baseball. Frank's obviously much, much better because you say so.

 

[YASNY]

Yeah, who cares that he's a Hall of Famer and has the lowest all-time ERA in baseball. Frank's obviously much, much better because you say so.

 

Frank Thomas was great, and I mean GREAT hitter. But Frank was just a hitter. He wasn't much of a baseball player as far as an all around game. Defensively he went from bad to incapable. He couldn't run and he couldn't throw. But the man could certainly hit. I still feel cheated we never got what his final numbers would have been in a full '94 season.

[Middle Buffalo]

I thought the bike was cool, but I'm not a big fan of the scoreboard. I thought that was kind of lame. The wheels were sweet.

Totally agree. They should have painted the final scorboard somewhere on the bike. To ride around with an LED diplaying "perfect" would be pretty lame. Hopefully it can be removed without doing much damage to the rest of the bike.

 

It's similar to "Monster House" (or whatever that show Ty Pennington hosts is called). One of the people they're helping will mention that they like to sing, and then they'll design a bedroom with a stage and microphone, etc. Cool for a day, but who really wants a stage taking up 1/3 of their bedroom?

 

 

[WCSox]

Frank Thomas was great, and I mean GREAT hitter. But Frank was just a hitter. He wasn't much of a baseball player as far as an all around game. Defensively he went from bad to incapable. He couldn't run and he couldn't throw. But the man could certainly hit. I still feel cheated we never got what his final numbers would have been in a full '94 season.

 

I agree. Definitely one of the best bats of his generation, but nobody's going to confuse him with Barry Bonds or Ricky Henderson.

 

[witesoxfan]

So, do you think that Frank would've had a career .300 average and 500 career HRs in Walsh's era? How are you so convinced that Frank was miles better than Shoeless Joe Jackson?

 

to be completely fair, we don't know what Frank would have done in Ed Walsh's time because he wouldn't have been allowed to play

[Milkman delivers]

So is he one of the top 10 pitchers ever? Context is very important when you want to throw out names of guys that played, like, 100 years ago. And I never brushed him off. I said from the start he was great for that time. Now if you're saying he's one of the best pitchers ever because he has the lowest ERA ever, well, I'll just stay out of it.

 

Again, he was great for that time. And lol@you would like to see a pitcher today win 40 games or throw 400 innings. I'd like to see Ed Walsh in today's game attempting to keep his ERA below 10.

 

That sounds pretty much like you're brushing him off to me.

[Jordan4life_2007]

That sounds pretty much like you're brushing him off to me.

 

That was kinda of a knee-jerk response to WCsox's ridiculous 'I'd like to see a pitcher today win 40 games or pitch 400 innings' comment. But like I said, I'm not getting into some big debate over a dude from over a century ago. There isn't a human being walking the face of the earth that would put Ed Walsh over Frank Thomas among White Sox all-time greats (sad that a franchise that's been around as long as the Sox have don't really have that many to begin with). I've learned over time to pick and choose my message board 'battles.' WCsox is the kinda dude that will post about a specific topic until New Year's in order to get the last word in or to prove he's 'right'. I don't got time for that.

Edited December 8, 2009 by Jordan4life

[Milkman delivers]

That was kinda of a knee-jerk response to WCsox's ridiculous 'I'd like to see a pitcher today win 40 games or pitch 400 innings' comment. But like I said, I'm not getting into some big debate over a dude from over a century ago. There isn't a human being walking the face of the earth that would put Ed Walsh over Frank Thomas among White Sox all-time greats (sad that a franchise that's been around as long as the Sox have don't really have that many to begin with). I've learned over time to pick and choose my message board 'battles.' WCsox is the kinda dude that will post about a specific topic until New Year's in order to get the last word in or to prove he's 'right'. I don't got time for that.

 

Gotcha, if anyone knows about knee-jerk reactions it's me. That line just ground my gears.

[YASNY]

That was kinda of a knee-jerk response to WCsox's ridiculous 'I'd like to see a pitcher today win 40 games or pitch 400 innings' comment. But like I said, I'm not getting into some big debate over a dude from over a century ago. There isn't a human being walking the face of the earth that would put Ed Walsh over Frank Thomas among White Sox all-time greats (sad that a franchise that's been around as long as the Sox have don't really have that many to begin with). I've learned over time to pick and choose my message board 'battles.' WCsox is the kinda dude that will post about a specific topic until New Year's in order to get the last word in or to prove he's 'right'. I don't got time for that.

 

Leaving Frank's skin color out of the equation, could he have played in the dead ball era that Walsh played in? As a one -dimensional player like Frank was, I doubt it. To flip thimngs ... I believe Walsh could have played in this era. There is an art to keeping hitters from hitting a round ball, with a round bat, squarely. Walsh was, apparently, a master at his craft.

[SoxAce]

Leaving Frank's skin color out of the equation, could he have played in the dead ball era that Walsh played in? As a one -dimensional player like Frank was, I doubt it. To flip thimngs ... I believe Walsh could have played in this era. There is an art to keeping hitters from hitting a round ball, with a round bat, squarely. Walsh was, apparently, a master at his craft.

 

See thats where I disagree. Sure Frank won't have nearly as many home runs considering the feet from those days were probably 720 feet or something like that, but you bet your ass his average, doubles, possibly triples (earlier in his career) etc.. not to mention his walks (one of the best eyes at the plate in the game) and probably RBIs will have certainly gone up. As Mike pointed out, there was no (or many pitchers were not throwing many) curveballs, sliders, forkballs, etc. during those times. I believe Walsh would have been a good pitcher even in this time, but certainly not a ridiculously low ERA pitcher here whereas if you put Frank in that time, not counting skin color, he's probably still the best, just without the many home runs. There was no symmetrics/FLD also during those days. Hell for all we know, Honus Wagner could have been a true butcher out there.

 

In the records books and such though... WCSox and others do have a point of Ed Walsh regardless and honestly you can't really argue it. I would say Frank is one of, if not the best white sox hitter of all time.

[WCSox]

There isn't a human being walking the face of the earth that would put Ed Walsh over Frank Thomas among White Sox all-time greats

 

I never claimed that one was superior to the other, just that there isn't a massive chasm in proficiency between the two. Given their level of play in comparison to their peers, I find it difficult to rank one over the other. It would be helpful if you'd use something other than emotionally-based platitudes to support your statements in this thread.

 

Frank is certainly one of the greatest hitters of his generation, but nobody's going to put him in the same category as guys like Bonds, Maddux, Rivera, etc. He's a first-ballot HOFer, but clearly not the "best of the best" of his generation. Claiming that a player like that is far and away better than a HOF starting pitcher with a lower career ERA than Cy Young makes little sense. Was Walsh not one of the greatest pitchers of his generation? If he was, Frank doesn't stand head-and-shoulders above him. It's as simple as that.

 

For somebody who claims to be a baseball historian, your lack of perspective and outright dismissal of a "dude from over a century ago" is puzzling.

 

Edited December 8, 2009 by WCSox

[266344]

Mark Buehrle to manage the Cardinals.

 

Buehrle won an auction to manage a St. L. Cardinals spring training game. Hilarious.

 

LINK

[kapkomet]

Mark Buehrle to manage the Cardinals.

 

Buehrle won an auction to manage a St. L. Cardinals spring training game. Hilarious.

 

LINK

Ok, that's just awesome. KW's quote is great.