What about a Juan Pierre for Linebrink swap?

[macsandz]

Because I don't change my opinion on players based on one partial season, a good 400 PA season doesn't erase the previous 4 bad ones. I'm not going to buy high on an incredibly expensive 32 year old with a well documented track record of mediocrity, that's how a lot these teams in financial trouble accumulate bad contracts.

 

With respect, 400 PA is not a partial season and a career .300 AVG is not a track record of mediocrity. He's expensive to the Dodgers. If the Sox acquired him, he wouldn't be under those terms any longer. In order for a deal to happen, the Sox would unload a heavy contract and would insist on LA eating some cash which they know they'd have to do. The key for LA is any player they inherit, it would have to be an expiring contract. Pierre still has another year on his after 2010. If the Sox can dump salary in a deal, which is what they are trying to do, and they can offer 2011 relief to LA for Pierre for around $6M a season, they might just do it. The Sox financial relief would not happen, but they improve the team at the plate on the paths and in the field.

 

[SoxAce]

Judging by this thread, and with Ozzie's forever fascination with the leadoff hitter, Carl Crawford (and his amazing D in LF) is looking ideal more and more by the day.

[Kalapse]

With respect, 400 PA is not a partial season and a career .300 AVG is not a track record of mediocrity. He's expensive to the Dodgers. If the Sox acquired him, he wouldn't be under those terms any longer. In order for a deal to happen, the Sox would unload a heavy contract and would insist on LA eating some cash which they know they'd have to do. The key for LA is any player they inherit, it would have to be an expiring contract. Pierre still has another year on his after 2010. If the Sox can dump salary in a deal, which is what they are trying to do, and they can offer 2011 relief to LA for Pierre for around $6M a season, they might just do it. The Sox financial relief would not happen, but they improve the team at the plate on the paths and in the field.

425 PA is a partial season. This is a guy who's used to 730+ PA years, 425 is 58% of that, basically the definition of partial.

 

Congrats to him on the .300 career batting average, baseball if full of early 30 year olds who are past their prime's and can no longer be relied on to match their career numbers, the Sox just signed one for $550K guaranteed, you know he of the .826 career OPS. The last time he hit .300? 2004. The last time he put up a good OBP? 2004. The last time he could be relied upon as an everyday player? 2004

 

So what expiring contract are you sending the Dodgers' way? The Sox have a grand total of 7 expiring deals and 5 of those guys make less than $2.5M and/or were signed within the past 2 weeks. The other 2: AJ Pierzynski ($6.25M) and Paul Konerko ($12M). Your 2 year deals are Buehrle ($28M), Linebrink ($10.5M).

 

What's your plan for buying high on Pierre?

[macsandz]

425 PA is a partial season. This is a guy who's used to 730+ PA years, 425 is 58% of that, basically the definition of partial.

 

Congrats to him on the .300 career batting average, baseball if full of early 30 year olds who are past their prime's and can no longer be relied on to match their career numbers, the Sox just signed one for $550K guaranteed, you know he of the .826 career OPS. The last time he hit .300? 2004. The last time he put up a good OBP? 2004. The last time he could be relied upon as an everyday player? 2004

 

So what expiring contract are you sending the Dodgers' way? The Sox have a grand total of 7 expiring deals and 5 of those guys make less than $2.5M and/or were signed within the past 2 weeks. The other 2: AJ Pierzynski ($6.25M) and Paul Konerko ($12M). Your 2 year deals are Buehrle ($28M), Linebrink ($10.5M).

 

What's your plan for buying high on Pierre?

 

Pierre averages 600 PAs a season for his career. That considered, 425 PA's is a not a partial season. He had an excellent year last year and would have had A LOT more PA's had he not been replaced by Manny Dreadlocks. Not many players would have benched a .308 hitter with a .365 OBP and 30 steals but a guy who many believe is among the best hitters of all time did just that. So his "partial" season was a result of that, not some kind of breakdown or fall-off. How is Pierre past his prime? He finished with a .720 OPS. That ranked 4th best out of his 10 year career and in the field, UZR/150 rated Pierre as excellent in LF with a +16.4. Not past his prime. The rumor is a three team deal with Linebrink involved. If that didn't work, I'd resign Jenks to a one-year contract out of arbitration at around $7.5M and ask for cash & Pierre in return. PK off the books in 2011, makes Pierre's final year compensation acceptable. Ozzie is confident that Thornton can close and I believe him. I'd still move to sign Mike Gonzalez as a back-up LHP or the straight up closer for 2010/2011.

Edited December 8, 2009 by bucket-of-suck

[nickofypres]

I'd rather sign Coco Crisp cheaper

[WHITESOXRANDY]

It all really comes down to, is there a team out there willing to pay Pods what he's looking for?

 

If not, and I don't suspect there is, then he'll be back where the White Sox want him.

[southsider2k5]

It all really comes down to, is there a team out there willing to pay Pods what he's looking for?

 

If not, and I don't suspect there is, then he'll be back where the White Sox want him.

 

If there was anyone who wanted to pay Pods anything, he would have been signed by now. I am guessing the only interest in Pods is fairly cheap, otherwise the Sox would have totally been priced out, and Kenny (well more accurately, Rick) wouldn't still wouldn't be talking to him.

[Kalapse]

Pierre averages 600 PAs a season for his career. That considered, 425 PA's is a not a partial season. He had an excellent year last year and would have had A LOT more PA's had he not been replaced by Manny Dreadlocks. Not many players would have benched a .308 hitter with a .365 OBP and 30 steals but a guy who many believe is among the best hitters of all time did just that. So his "partial" season was a result of that, not some kind of breakdown or fall-off. How is Pierre past his prime? He finished with a .720 OPS. That ranked 4th best out of his 10 year career and in the field, UZR/150 rated Pierre as excellent in LF with a +16.4. Not past his prime. The rumor is a three team deal with Linebrink involved. If that didn't work, I'd resign Jenks to a one-year contract out of arbitration at around $7.5M and ask for cash & Pierre in return. PK off the books in 2011, makes Pierre's final year compensation acceptable. Ozzie is confident that Thornton can close and I believe him. I'd still move to sign Mike Gonzalez as a back-up LHP or the straight up closer for 2010/2011.

He averages 600 PA because 1.) he hasn't always been a leadoff hitter and 2.) he's become a part time player, over the 5 seasons he spent as an everyday leadoff man he averaged 738 PA per season, a leadoff hitter that starts 155+ games will typically get ~700 PA, making a 425 PA season a partial year, I don't see how this is so hard to get.

 

The other thing that you're not getting is that I don't care what he did last season, I've said this more than a few times. Congrats on the incredibly mediocre .720 OPS in a partial season after averaging a .688 OPS over the previous 4. You're willing to buy high on older, expensive, flawed players, I'm not. You're willing to believe that a player has turned his career around after putting up good numbers in a 425 PA season after being bad for the previous 4 seasons, I'm not. There's your difference. There's a reason why the Dodgers are trying like crazy to dump him for an equally bad contract of a starting pitcher and not fielding offers from teams offering up anything of any real value.

 

You didn't really answer my request for a trade scenario either. What are the exact details? You're really willing to give up Bobby Jenks, one of the more reliable closers in the game for Juan Pierre? From the way you worded your response it seems as though you're willing to pay Juan Pierre a hefty sum in 2010? Is this correct, if so I do believe you're insane.

 

You can keep the 32 year old singles hitter that's only capable of playing left field, has the worst arm in the game, has been awful 4 out of the last 5 seasons and no matter how you slice it will come at an exorbitant price.

[GREEDY]

At this point I do not want the White Sox to sacrifice production in favor of a "prototypical leadoff hitter"; especially one that isn't a plus defender.

 

IMHO this lineup looks much more dangerous with 25+ HR pop in RF and Rios in CF, than it does with someone "speedy" at the top of the order.

[qwerty]

Tango wrote this up march 6th, 2009.

 

 

You guys may remember that at the start of last year, before the emergence (or should we say fulfillment) of Ethier and Kemp, we agreed via our fan poll that Pierre had 1500 PA left in his MLB career. In attempt to disparage him, we may have been pretty optimistic.

 

Now, with Manny in the mix, there is zero room for Pierre, and he knows it:

 

Pierre is entering the third year of a five-year, $44 million contract with $28.5 million in salary remaining. Pierre said he would defer payment if that would help facilitate a trade. “I realize the economic situation,” Pierre said of his contract. “I’ll defer if it makes it more attractive.

If Juan Pierre was a free agent, with absolutely no strings attached, what could he be worth? He’s at best an average-fielding CF, with an arm horribler than his baserunning is good. And a bat that is very bad. That works out to a 0.5 WAR player. He’s basically in a similar class to Garrett Anderson, and plenty of other backup outfielders on their last legs. Basically, he’d get 2MM, and at that, a one year contract. Let’s be nice, and say some team would give him 2.85MM. However, the Dodgers are on the hook for 28.5MM (spread over three years).

 

If we presume a 5% rate of return, Pierre’s new team could invest $2.45MM in a 50yr bond that will mature at a value of $28.1MM. And if they give him a league minimum salary this year, Pierre will get his $28.5MM.

 

So, if Pierre is serious about wanting to play this year, and away from the impossible competition he faces with the Dodgers, then he must defer his salary for 50 years, and sign at the league minimum. The signing team pays him what he is worth (0.4 + 2.45 = 2.85).

 

Juan Pierre is as untradeable as Dustin Pedroia, but for the opposite reasons. Pedroia signed a contract so far below his value, that in order for the Redsox to ever get a fair return for him, they’d have to get back $100MM in cash in return. Juan Pierre has the opposite problem, that he is signed at so much above his value, that the Dodgers have to write him off at ten cents on the dollar.

 

***

 

By the way, the value of the Redsox increased by 100MM when Pedroia signed that contract, just as the sale price of the Penguins went up, when they won the right to draft Sidney Crosby, and pay him at no more than the rookie cap. That value has to go somewhere… and it’s captured inside the value of the enterprise itself.

 

 

How far would juan pierre have to defer his contract?