Roy Halladay in a White Sox uniform???

[witesoxfan]

First, I'm not going to suggest that I think this has a high probability (like I'd give it 5-10% chance) of getting done, but I think the observation that it might not take as much as one might think to get Halladay could be correct.

 

If he is truly serious about testing FA after this season then his value is obviously reduced in a trade, and he has to start looking around for where he wants to go showcase himself. This is where Kenny does the sell-job. Projecting out to him what they can do with a rotation like our XBox fantasy. Since the Jays won't want to trade him to NY or Bos, Chicago makes more sense for Halladay want to showcase himself than Tampa Bay.

 

Since Halladay has so much say over where he goes, it could create a situation where Toronto is virtually forced to take lesser value than they could get somewhere else. It isn't like we haven't seen this before.

 

All that said, again, I doubt we end up with him, and if we do I'd hope it would be a scenario like that where we don't give full value, where ours is the 2nd or 3rd best offer on the table and the Jays are all but forced to take it. Giving up Danks and Danks and Flowers and on and on for him would be a mistake, IMO.

 

 

 

But it sure is fun to think about when it is cold and gray outside.

 

The Jays have already said they'll deal Halladay to the team that offers the most, no matter what hat Halladay would put on in the Spring.

 

And beyond that, the White Sox would not acquire Halladay to have him pitch on the South Side, not when the offense needs help way more than anything else.

[kwolf68]

Probably the best ever.

 

 

Isn't that what was said about the 1984 Sox staff, when we added an aging but still talented Tom Seaver to the rotation of Hoyt, Dotson, Bannister?

[Buehrlesque]

First, I'm not going to suggest that I think this has a high probability (like I'd give it 5-10% chance) of getting done, but I think the observation that it might not take as much as one might think to get Halladay could be correct.

 

If he is truly serious about testing FA after this season then his value is obviously reduced in a trade, and he has to start looking around for where he wants to go showcase himself. This is where Kenny does the sell-job. Projecting out to him what they can do with a rotation like our XBox fantasy. Since the Jays won't want to trade him to NY or Bos, Chicago makes more sense for Halladay want to showcase himself than Tampa Bay.

 

Since Halladay has so much say over where he goes, it could create a situation where Toronto is virtually forced to take lesser value than they could get somewhere else. It isn't like we haven't seen this before.

 

All that said, again, I doubt we end up with him, and if we do I'd hope it would be a scenario like that where we don't give full value, where ours is the 2nd or 3rd best offer on the table and the Jays are all but forced to take it. Giving up Danks and Danks and Flowers and on and on for him would be a mistake, IMO.

 

 

 

But it sure is fun to think about when it is cold and gray outside.

To go along with this (whether or not it is realistic):

 

Purely. purely, purely hypothetical: if the Sox were able to get Halladay on "the cheap" (so to speak), but had to make room for him in the budget by non-tendering Bobby Jenks, would you do it?

 

Let's say the market for Jenks dries up too, due to the money he will make in arb. The Sox have this great deal on the table to acquire Halladay, but they need to move salary and no one is biting on Konerko or Linebrink's guaranteed money. Would you non-tender Jenks, freeing up ~7 million, if it meant getting Halladay?

 

Is the prospect of getting a starter like Halladay enough to justify that? Or would you keep Jenks to anchor the bullpen, even if it meant losing out on Halladay?

 

Just though that would be interesting discussion, with the non-tender date coming in a few days. Obviously, in no way do I think a trade like that is at all likely.

[Kalapse]

To go along with this (whether or not it is realistic):

 

Purely. purely, purely hypothetical: if the Sox were able to get Halladay on "the cheap" (so to speak), but had to make room for him in the budget by non-tendering Bobby Jenks, would you do it?

 

Let's say the market for Jenks dries up too, due to the money he will make in arb. The Sox have this great deal on the table to acquire Halladay, but they need to move salary and no one is biting on Konerko or Linebrink's guaranteed money. Would you non-tender Jenks, freeing up ~7 million, if it meant getting Halladay?

 

Is the prospect of getting a starter like Halladay enough to justify that? Or would you keep Jenks to anchor the bullpen, even if it meant losing out on Halladay?

 

Just though that would be interesting discussion, with the non-tender date coming in a few days. Obviously, in no way do I think a trade like that is at all likely.

There's about an $8M difference between Halladay's and Jenks' 2010 salaries.

[Shamrock4Life]

but i believe halladay's valve is $8M greater than Jenks's value.

[Pumpkin Escobar]

I think Halladay is an "all-in" piece.

 

We know we have a budget. And we all know we heard about how fans didn't turn out for support and yada yada (I think the Dodgers series was the example last season). Fact is, if we put a team out there people are excited about. They'll come, theyll spend money, they'll do the little things that putting together the squad we have isn't accomplishing.

 

I think Halladay is that "all-in" piece because you feel out what the Jays want. If they'll take an offer we are happy with, forget the payroll for a second and pull the trigger. Once you have him in place, you decide if you want to up the payroll an extra 20 mill for the year and go nab a couple hitters while trimming some fat from other places if need be (like Jenks). Or you just go with what our plan is an add pieces accordingly during the season as we find out our weakness and see who becomes available.

 

The point is, you go get Halladay if you can and it makes sense. Make the decision from there.

 

At worst, you'll sell out tickets in a heartbeat. You'll sell the merchandise and you'll get those extra people buzzing about the Sox. You put out a team who with that rotation should easily make the playoffs (minimal offense or not) and should be a threat for a title. As opposed to the limbo people sit in now when they think of this team.

 

If it fails, it fails. Cut loose some guys next season and don't replace them with high pay guys. Halladay would come off the books, Konerko is comin off the books, AJP, etc. Thats 30+ million right there. Don't replace it with much of anything in 2011 if we totally faceplant and do nothing in 2010.

 

If we do well, then obviously there will be money and you do what you can to fix up the team or keep this one. Regardless, he is a smart move for us.

[clyons]

Isn't that what was said about the 1984 Sox staff, when we added an aging but still talented Tom Seaver to the rotation of Hoyt, Dotson, Bannister?

 

You might be thinking about when an aging but still talented Greg Maddux was added to the rotation of Zambrano, Wood, Prior, and Clement. That rotation was unquestionably the "best ever." I know because I read it in the Tribune and heard it on WGN. From what I also remember hearing, that 2004 Chicago Cubs team won the World Series that year in February.

[Quin]

You might be thinking about when an aging but still talented Greg Maddux was added to the rotation of Zambrano, Wood, Prior, and Clement. That rotation was unquestionably the "best ever." I know because I read it in the Tribune and heard it on WGN. From what I also remember hearing, that 2004 Chicago Cubs team won the World Series that year in February.

 

Ba-zing!

 

The Sox rotation would have the chance at the best rotation ever, but probably wouldn't.

 

It'd be the Best Rotation Ever in 2010.

[BigSqwert]

At worst, you'll sell out tickets in a heartbeat.

I honestly don't think there's a player in baseball that we could acquire that would guarantee sellouts on a nightly basis.

[Pumpkin Escobar]

I honestly don't think there's a player in baseball that we could acquire that would guarantee sellouts on a nightly basis.

 

Absolutely not. If you look back at what I was saying or meant to say. I said you acquire him and go spend money on a couple of much needed hitters.

 

He physically won't sell us out on his own. His acquisition alone will sell tickets. Not because he is a fan favorite but because him being added onto this team will generate interest. We'll go from middle of the pack to a sure-fire contender which always helps sell extra tickets to those fans who aren't annual season ticket holders, or are unsure of wanting to make the investment.

 

Now adding him and adding a couple hitters(by hitters I mean a legit leadoff man and a big bat. Not Pods and Thome) will do that job of potentially selling us out. It's not really rocket science for these GM's. If you put a legit contender out there, Sox fans or other fans will come. We don't need to spend like the Yankees and we aren't going to have the social event like the Cubs. Our fans understand crap vs good and if you put a club out there sporting what we have now + Halladay and more. It'll get the casual fans interested and the serious fans who dislike our squad interested. And like I said, not pods or thome with Doc, I mean signing or acquiring a guy or two at any cost.

 

It'll deplete the farm, and that isn't something I am fond of, but my point was in the case of Halladay. He is all-in, so you go all-ain. Otherwise, he isn't really worth it unless you acquiring him at a cheap cost and figuring things out from there.

 

My point simply was he is an "all-in" piece for the Sox. If you decide to get him. Screw the payroll and kick it back up to 120-130 mil or whatever it was in 2008 and go for it.

[Quin]

Absolutely not. If you look back at what I was saying or meant to say. I said you acquire him and go spend money on a couple of much needed hitters.

 

He physically won't sell us out on his own. His acquisition alone will sell tickets. Not because he is a fan favorite but because him being added onto this team will generate interest. We'll go from middle of the pack to a sure-fire contender which always helps sell extra tickets to those fans who aren't annual season ticket holders, or are unsure of wanting to make the investment.

 

Now adding him and adding a couple hitters(by hitters I mean a legit leadoff man and a big bat. Not Pods and Thome) will do that job of potentially selling us out. It's not really rocket science for these GM's. If you put a legit contender out there, Sox fans or other fans will come. We don't need to spend like the Yankees and we aren't going to have the social event like the Cubs. Our fans understand crap vs good and if you put a club out there sporting what we have now + Halladay and more. It'll get the casual fans interested and the serious fans who dislike our squad interested. And like I said, not pods or thome with Doc, I mean signing or acquiring a guy or two at any cost.

 

It'll deplete the farm, and that isn't something I am fond of, but my point was in the case of Halladay. He is all-in, so you go all-ain. Otherwise, he isn't really worth it unless you acquiring him at a cheap cost and figuring things out from there.

 

My point simply was he is an "all-in" piece for the Sox. If you decide to get him. Screw the payroll and kick it back up to 120-130 mil or whatever it was in 2008 and go for it.

 

That reminded me of the Scott Merkin mailbag where someone said we'd get Upton (or was it Crawford?), Gonzalez, and Halladay this offesason.

 

[Pumpkin Escobar]

That reminded me of the Scott Merkin mailbag where someone said we'd get Upton (or was it Crawford?), Gonzalez, and Halladay this offesason.

 

Hah. I think that is a bit of a pipe dream on those guys.

 

Halladay I think can be acquired, even any of those guys mentioned, but only one of them. For the sake of this discussion, if we were to go for Halladay, he'd undoubtedly take away those pieces we'd need for a guy like Gonzalez or Upton. I think we could acquire a middle-tier hitter (still a big bat in comparison to Pods or Thome though). Those two won't generate excitement and hardly make this team a contender or fill the void we need.

 

I won't throw names out there for hitters but it'd be something off the radar because thats just how Kenny seems to operate, so the AGone, Upton or Crawfords of the world don't fit. So draw up conclusions on hitters via trade cuz we won't have the pieces for a elite hitter, but a big bat should be attainable via trade and free agency.

[Melissa1334]

Hah. I think that is a bit of a pipe dream on those guys.

 

Halladay I think can be acquired, even any of those guys mentioned, but only one of them. For the sake of this discussion, if we were to go for Halladay, he'd undoubtedly take away those pieces we'd need for a guy like Gonzalez or Upton. I think we could acquire a middle-tier hitter (still a big bat in comparison to Pods or Thome though). Those two won't generate excitement and hardly make this team a contender or fill the void we need.

 

I won't throw names out there for hitters but it'd be something off the radar because thats just how Kenny seems to operate, so the AGone, Upton or Crawfords of the world don't fit. So draw up conclusions on hitters via trade cuz we won't have the pieces for a elite hitter, but a big bat should be attainable via trade and free agency.

why does everyone want upton so bad? hes had one real good yr and thats it. ur going to trade ur farm for a player in hopes that he'll be what u think he can be?

[Fingish]

The Jays have already said they'll deal Halladay to the team that offers the most, no matter what hat Halladay would put on in the Spring.

 

And beyond that, the White Sox would not acquire Halladay to have him pitch on the South Side, not when the offense needs help way more than anything else.

 

I'll concede that the Jays might not care what hat he wears, my point was more about the fact that Halladay does have leverage in this situation. It is an unlikely scenario, but the Jays options won't be that everyone in the league will offer them the best package of players they can muster. If some of the other big market teams don't come through with serious offers, you could see the Jays having to ask Halladay to accept a trade to a team that he doesn't want to go to in order to get the team that is offering the most.

 

That is the general point, the team that is offering the most isn't guaranteed to get the player, because of the particulars of this situation. A five and ten guy that seems determined to go FA after next season has much more leverage than your run of the mill player.

 

And to the other poster who wondered what to do with Bobby. I think that in the unlikely event that this Halladay thing happened, as someone else said, this is an all-in situation. It is only for the one year that you take the hit with Halladay and you only do that if he falls to you without giving up the farm.

 

If the payroll hit is just too much, somewhere, someone is going to take Jenks off your hands, so you offer arbitration anyways. He might not have the value he once did, but I think there are a number of teams that would make offers if he was available. I know we don't have some unlimited budget so it is important to be realistic, but Jerry has shown a willingness to go for it before when he thinks it could have a big payoff. The city might not be as high on the White Sox as they were following '05, but it is nothing like it was before then (as a very long-time season ticket holder, I can say that that was the last year we had any trouble selling our excess games to our friends). There was a time when the bleachers were empty over at Wrigley, bring the city another World Series or even make it again and you could be building a generation of fans that will be as die-hard as those Cub fans seem today.

 

But, again, mostly fantasy, and I agree that the odds are low, but because of the particulars this may be a case where everyone is left scratching their heads wondering why Toronto didn't end up with more than it did. That may be part of the reason they are looking at multi-team deals, as it gives them the best chance of getting back a big haul, or at least having their pick of the prospects involved.

 

We probably would be better off being the 3rd team in the trade and getting the Jays to acquire the guy we want for us if we aren't able to get him ourselves. (Maybe the Jays value one of our people more than another team, etc....)

 

If there is one thing besides '05 that we can thank Kenny for, it is that we always have plenty to talk about in the off-season!

 

 

 

[Pumpkin Escobar]

why does everyone want upton so bad? hes had one real good yr and thats it. ur going to trade ur farm for a player in hopes that he'll be what u think he can be?

 

I'm sort of on the boat with you there. Upton isn't my favorite but no denying he has tons of talent/tools but hasn't put it together. It's just visions of his 08' end of season/playoffs where you see how much of a threat he could be if he puts it together. That and it doesn't help that his brother is gradually coming into his own.

 

He is one of those guys who will live off of his prospect days/hype until people finally give up on him. Which wont be for a while.

[Melissa1334]

I'm sort of on the boat with you there. Upton isn't my favorite but no denying he has tons of talent/tools but hasn't put it together. It's just visions of his 08' end of season/playoffs where you see how much of a threat he could be if he puts it together. That and it doesn't help that his brother is gradually coming into his own.

 

He is one of those guys who will live off of his prospect days/hype until people finally give up on him. Which wont be for a while.

exactly. sure i would take him but i dont like the idea of trading prospects(danks, viciedo, flowers, hudson,etc etc) for him as if he were some proven bat. yea he has the tools but who knows,he might never get it together, ill pass

[Dick Allen]

Ah. Interesting. That could be an incredible fit for the Sox. I wonder if that is why Kenny played coy when Roy's name came up?

I think they could have asked him about any player currently with another team and he would have responded the same way. I think people read way too much into his response.

[lostfan]

I think they could have asked him about any player currently with another team and he would have responded the same way. I think people read way too much into his response.

Yeah... really I would do the same thing if for no other reason than just to mess with people.

[Dick Allen]

Yeah... really I would do the same thing if for no other reason than just to mess with people.

It could be used as a smokescreen as was suggested earlier in the thread. If people think he's working on a Halladay deal, they may miss what he really working on. He does like the "under the radar" approach. Fewer Sox big deals get leaked before they actually happen than any other team IMO. I'm sure he's just ressponding exactly how he would like every other club that is asked potential deals with the White Sox to respond. Even though Putz is a FA, I bet KW isn't so happy Thornton let out his interest.

[bigruss]

It could be used as a smokescreen as was suggested earlier in the thread. If people think he's working on a Halladay deal, they may miss what he really working on. He does like the "under the radar" approach. Fewer Sox big deals get leaked before they actually happen than any other team IMO. I'm sure he's just ressponding exactly how he would like every other club that is asked potential deals with the White Sox to respond. Even though Putz is a FA, I bet KW isn't so happy Thornton let out his interest.

White Sox interest was already documented in the media. No big deal to me.

[kwolf68]

Do we have the pieces to even make this deal? In talks with LA, they want Billingsley (among others) and in talks with the Yankees it was Hughes/Joba and others.

 

Do we have ANYONE in this entire organization other than Peavy with the stuff that Chad Billingley has? And that's just PART of what the Jays want.

 

I see absolutely nothing here.

Edited December 9, 2009 by kwolf68

[bmags]

Do we have the pieces to even make this deal? In talks with LA, they want Billingsley (among others) and in talks with the Yankees it was Hughes/Joba and others.

 

Do we have ANYONE in this entire organization other than Peavy with the stuff that Chad Billingley has? And that's just PART of what the Jays want.

 

I see absolutely nothing here.

 

Yes, people want things. People often don't get the things they want. I believe there is a song about it.

[ThunderBolt]

exactly. sure i would take him but i dont like the idea of trading prospects(danks, viciedo, flowers, hudson,etc etc) for him as if he were some proven bat. yea he has the tools but who knows,he might never get it together, ill pass

Upton has proven he can do great things at the major league level. He's not some amatuer. He's just a guy with a world of talent, and a wooly work ethic coming off an injury.

[southsider2k5]

Do we have the pieces to even make this deal? In talks with LA, they want Billingsley (among others) and in talks with the Yankees it was Hughes/Joba and others.

 

Do we have ANYONE in this entire organization other than Peavy with the stuff that Chad Billingley has? And that's just PART of what the Jays want.

 

I see absolutely nothing here.

 

It also doesn't mean that Toronto can't come down in price.

[balfanman]

It also doesn't mean that Toronto can't come down in price.

 

I agree. Isn't this one of the reasons that Riccardi was fired up there? The new G. M. may be under pressure to get what he can for Halladay, before spring training.