Sox interested in Yanks' Brett Gardner

[macsandz]

SoxNet: Sox Reportedly Ask Yankees About Gardner

 

Supposedly, the Sox were asking the Yanks what it would take to acquire Gardner.

 

http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2009/12...news_sox_e.html

 

Well, if a deal was ever gonna happen, it isn't now. Thanks Cowley. I swear KW must wanna stab that dude.

[ThunderBolt]

What does that have to do with top rate speed leading to increased extra base hits?

It means he's not the the same player as Juan Pierre. If you want pertinent offensive stats look at their OBP's. Gardner has shown the ability to get on base, even though he's young, he has shown some very encouraging signs in that department. He more then makes up for his lacking power skills with his speed and defense.

[ThunderBolt]

I was thinking Carlos Gomez when I first saw that quote personally.

That's actually a decent comparison. I like Gardner, and i think he'll hit for a better average then Gomez, but there is a chance that he realll could be that guy who you live with on offense, because of his defense.

[southsider2k5]

Well, if a deal was ever gonna happen, it isn't now. Thanks Cowley. I swear KW must wanna stab that dude.

 

Someone needs to...

[2nd_city_saint787]

another thing i liked was after a year in the minors he was already rated #1 best strike zone discipline

[DBAHO]

Gardner makes sense in terms of filling the Sox's need as a leadoff hitter etc. although I personally don't think he's much better than say Jerry Owens.

 

And by acquiring him, you'd be moving Alex Rios to RF, and I don't want that scenario to happen, because you'd be vastly overpaying him in terms of what he'd bring to the table from that spot.

[macsandz]

jphat does make an excellent point about how Rios' contract is even more iffy if he's your RF and not playing CF. I bet anything that KW wishes he could take that move back.

 

Rios' defense in RF is sabermetrically among the best in MLB – +15.5 last season, +9 the two seasons prior to that. His contract is a better one with him there, not worse.

[macsandz]

Someone needs to...

 

LOL. -nice.

[2nd_city_saint787]

Gardner makes sense in terms of filling the Sox's need as a leadoff hitter etc. although I personally don't think he's much better than say Jerry Owens.

 

And by acquiring him, you'd be moving Alex Rios to RF, and I don't want that scenario to happen, because you'd be vastly overpaying him in terms of what he'd bring to the table from that spot.

 

 

 

WHAAAAA JERRY OWENS??? REALLLLLY???? this guy was the opening day starter for the yankees...and like i stated before he played some games in left for the yanks so i dont see why he couldnt play there for us.

[macsandz]

Gardner makes sense in terms of filling the Sox's need as a leadoff hitter etc. although I personally don't think he's much better than say Jerry Owens.

 

And by acquiring him, you'd be moving Alex Rios to RF, and I don't want that scenario to happen, because you'd be vastly overpaying him in terms of what he'd bring to the table from that spot.

 

This has become the thread about the misperception that Rios playing RF makes his contract a bad one.

Having him play RF justifies his deal more than anything else.

I'll write it again....RIOS IS AMONG THE BEST DEFENSIVE RF'S IN ALL OF BASEBALL -+60.5 UZR in RF over the last 6 seasons.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2009 by bucket-of-suck

[kwolf68]

 

Would love this if we could get him...a guy still young, with upside, can pick it in the field, can run, is already a solid player.

 

 

 

 

[Kalapse]

It means he's not the the same player as Juan Pierre. If you want pertinent offensive stats look at their OBP's. Gardner has shown the ability to get on base, even though he's young, he has shown some very encouraging signs in that department. He more then makes up for his lacking power skills with his speed and defense.

Talk about missing the f***ing point.

 

Despite the fact that it's often thrown out their early in the career of bantam speedsters elite speed doesn't really lead to increased extra base hits, you have to be able to hit the ball hard and over people's heads. Juan Pierre is about as fast as they come but he was only able to turn so many singles into doubles. I don't see where I was addressing any other facet of their games.

[Kalapse]

If Rios isn't in center field he has next to no value. Certainly not at 10 mil a year

This has become the thread about the misperception that Rios playing RF makes his contract a bad one.

Having him play RF justifies his deal more than anything else.

I'll write it again....RIOS IS AMONG THE BEST DEFENSIVE RF'S IN ALL OF BASEBALL -+60.5 UZR in RF over the last 6 seasons.

Apparently great defense and an elite arm from a corner outfielder is worthless.

[Real]

My friend on another forum had this to say about Brett Gardner (he is a Yankees fan), and I consider him rather knowledgeable:

 

Why does he want him? He's a 5th outfielder with speed and no power. He's not the greatest outfielder, he can chase balls down with his speed but he doesn't get good jumps and his arm is below average to bad. He's pretty much a .220 hitter (maybe) and is mostly a pinch runner for the Yankees. If any of those players are any good you're giving up too much. The Yanks would probably take any left handed arm or right handed hitter with power.

 

 

[ThunderBolt]

Apparently great defense and an elite arm from a corner outfielder is worthless.

I don't see any use in arguing your point, Kalapse, because i'm inclined to say i agree with you. Players like Gardner trouble me, because their main skill sets is there legs, and speed can kill a team when it's misused. I just think that as a fairly, cheap left-handed option, he might be able to find a decent place here. I'm not saying it's a done deal, hell, generally, i hate players with Gardners skillset, but even i can't deny that, that defense can have a huge impact on his team. Especially, coupled with his ability to get on base, at a decent rate.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Thunderbolt

[Kalapse]

I don't see any use in arguing your point, Kalapse, because i'm inclined to say i agree with you. Players like Gardner trouble me, because their main skill sets is there legs, and speed can kill a team when it's misused. I just think that as a fairly, cheap left-handed option, he might be able to find a decent place here. I'm not saying it's a done deal, hell, generally, i hate players with Gardners skillset, but even i can't deny that, that defense can have a huge impact on his team. Especially, coupled with his ability to get on base, at a decent rate.

You're misinterpreting everything I'm posting. This is what I had a problem with:

 

If Rios isn't in center field he has next to no value. Certainly not at 10 mil a year

That's some crazy hyperbole right there.

[DBAHO]

This has become the thread about the misperception that Rios playing RF makes his contract a bad one.

Having him play RF justifies his deal more than anything else.

I'll write it again....RIOS IS AMONG THE BEST DEFENSIVE RF'S IN ALL OF BASEBALL -+60.5 UZR in RF over the last 6 seasons.

Ok so say Rios puts up a .750 OPS for the next 5 seasons.

 

Would you rather pay a guy $12M a season to put up those kind of offensive numbers in CF or in RF?

 

Because if he does that in RF, he'll argubly be one of the most overpaid players in baseball relative to his position with his output. At least in CF, that kind of offense is a little more acceptable.

 

That's why if the Sox traded for Gardner and had him starting at CF, the Sox could have one of the worst offensive outfields in baseball I'd hate to say it for 2010.

[SoxAce]

This has become the thread about the misperception that Rios playing RF makes his contract a bad one.

Having him play RF justifies his deal more than anything else.

I'll write it again....RIOS IS AMONG THE BEST DEFENSIVE RF'S IN ALL OF BASEBALL -+60.5 UZR in RF over the last 6 seasons.

 

Most are well aware with his UZR rating in RF, but whose to say his +8.2 UZR rating in limited appearances in CF won't jump next season? Did you know that Rios had a +23.8 UZR in only 59 starts in CF for the Blue Jays last year (technically 08 last year) which I believe was his second highest total? Whose to say that Quentin won't go back to his stellar defensive RF ratings from the D-Backs/minors/Stanford? Rios was a natural CF before the Blue Jays eventually moved him to RF as he was blocked. Any way you slice it, Alex Rios is a superior defensive OF wherever you put him. I'd rather have my best defensive OF manning CF personally and take my chances on a guy who was ranked as one of the best defensive RF's in the minors (not to mention had + UZRs in RF with the D-Backs) in Quentin which is his natural position as well. Gardner is also good defensively supposedly, and has some LF experience. Didn't do too bad in 15 games he was out there in 08. I'm willing to give him that chance for more opportunities down there if we did get him.

Edited December 11, 2009 by SoxAce

[Real]

More from my Yanks friend:

 

He started the year there yes, but quickly lost the job and really only got it back when Melky was injured. His defense metrics put him as an average CF which, given his speed, shows that his arm is pretty bad. He can steal bases if he gets on base, but he's pretty much a slap hitter. I don't think I ever saw him hit a curveball. I mean, he had Jeter protecting him in the order and still couldn't get much going.

 

I don't think it'd take much to pry him away, though I do think Girardi would be higher on keeping him as a 4th outfielder over Melky because of his speed.

[macsandz]

I don't see any use in arguing your point, Kalapse, because i'm inclined to say i agree with you. Players like Gardner trouble me, because their main skill sets is there legs, and speed can kill a team when it's misused. I just think that as a fairly, cheap left-handed option, he might be able to find a decent place here. I'm not saying it's a done deal, hell, generally, i hate players with Gardners skillset, but even i can't deny that, that defense can have a huge impact on his team. Especially, coupled with his ability to get on base, at a decent rate.

 

Gardner's best asset may not be his excellent speed. He rates as having an exceptional plate discipline a well. I looks like he projects to be an above-average CF, and all things considered his value to the 2010 White Sox in particular would be very high. It would appear to be an excellent fit.

[witesoxfan]

The idea is actually growing on me. Gardner has displayed some ability to draw a walk, has some speed, and can actually use that speed on the bases. I haven't seen picked off numbers at all, but he seems like a very good buy low candidate. I want nothing to do with him as the opening day CFer, but I don't think it's impossible for him to put up .280/.360/.380 over a full season. My main problem, as was with the Erstad signing, is that Gardner would be thrust into the CF and leadoff (or #2) position immediately, rather than actually playing him to the role that he needs to be played (which would be the backup outfielder role).

[Kalapse]

Ok so say Rios puts up a .750 OPS for the next 5 seasons.

 

Would you rather pay a guy $12M a season to put up those kind of offensive numbers in CF or in RF?

 

Because if he does that in RF, he'll argubly be one of the most overpaid players in baseball relative to his position with his output. At least in CF, that kind of offense is a little more acceptable.

 

That's why if the Sox traded for Gardner and had him starting at CF, the Sox could have one of the worst offensive outfields in baseball I'd hate to say it for 2010.

Really?

 

In 2008 when he put up his modest .291/.337/.461/.798 stat line, .350 wOBA and super elite 27.5 UZR/150 that placed him 3rd among RF with a 54.7 RAR.

 

Drop that insane UZR to a more easily attainable mark and he's still around 44 in RAR which would be the 7th highest among all RF in 2009 and worth around ~$20M according to Fangraph's calculations.

 

If he hits like he did in '08 and fields like he did in '06 then he's an incredibly valuable RF.

[supernuke]

I would be on board for this if we also get a quality DH and bulpen arm. Gardner is a better option than Pods in my opinion.

[macsandz]

Most are well aware with his UZR rating in RF, but whose to say his +8.2 UZR rating in limited appearances in CF won't jump next season? Did you know that Rios had a +23.8 UZR in only 59 starts in CF for the Blue Jays last year (technically 08 last year) which I believe was his second highest total? Whose to say that Quentin won't go back to his stellar defensive RF ratings from the D-Backs/minors/Stanford? Rios was a natural CF before the Blue Jays eventually moved him to RF as he was blocked. Any way you slice it, Alex Rios is a superior defensive OF wherever you put him. I'd rather have my best defensive OF manning CF personally and take my chances on a guy who was ranked as one of the best defensive RF's in the minors (not to mention had + UZRs in RF with the D-Backs) in Quentin which is his natural position as well. Gardner is also good defensively supposedly, and has some LF experience. Didn't do too bad in 15 games he was out there in 08. I'm willing to give him that chance for more opportunities down there if we did get him.

 

Great post. I didn't know TCQ was so highly regarded for this defense. Wow.

 

My point with the Rios stuff was reading people post that Rios contract somehow worsened in RF was unreal.

 

An OF of Quentin/Garnder/Rios is imeasureably better than the stiffs they've run out there the past several years. The Sox have fielded some TERRIBLE outfields.

[Kalapse]

More from my Yanks friend:

His UZR/150 in CF in 628 INN was 15.4, he was a +9 in plus/minus and his arm rated as a +3, these are well above average numbers. Not sure what metrics he's looking at.