Sox interested in Yanks' Brett Gardner

[SoxAce]

His UZR/150 in CF in 628 INN was 15.4 and he was a +9 in plus/minus and his arm rated as a +3, these are well above average numbers. Not sure what metrics he's looking at.

 

I guess he could be using the ol' "eyes" argument, though I won't make too much fun of that as your eyes don't lie with what you see at times.

[macsandz]

Really?

 

In 2008 when he put up his modest .291/.337/.461/.798 stat line, .350 wOBA and super elite 27.5 UZR/150 that placed him 3rd among RF with a 54.7 RAR.

 

Drop that insane UZR to a more easily attainable mark and he's still around 44 in RAR which would be the 7th highest among all RF in 2009 and worth around ~$20M according to Fangraph's calculations.

 

If he hits like he did in '08 and fields like he did in '06 then he's an incredibly valuable RF.

 

Nicely done, Kalapse.

[macsandz]

More from my Yanks friend:

 

I wonder what D-backs fans were saying about Quentin before he played a full season in the bigs...

[Kalapse]

I guess he could be using the ol' "eyes" argument, though I won't make too much fun of that as your eyes don't lie with what you see at times.

Except he mentioned defensive metrics.

 

His defense metrics put him as an average CF

 

His ratings in the Tango Fan Poll are pretty good as well.

[ThunderBolt]

You're misinterpreting everything I'm posting. This is what I had a problem with:

I'm not sure i see it. Yeah, our first exchange was a tad unclear, but the rest has been a pretty, logical back and forth. You said, that Gardner sounded a lot like Juan Pierre. I accepted the surface similarities, but instead chose to focus on Gardner's exceptional defense, and pretty modest ability to get on base for a man of his skill set. Obviously, yeah the issue is whether Gardner can hit to the gaps. because that's what the thought was on Pierre. In reality, nothing can be made of this till we try it, and honestly, i don't think it hurts us to try.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Thunderbolt

[3E8]

Really?

 

In 2008 when he put up his modest .291/.337/.461/.798 stat line, .350 wOBA and super elite 27.5 UZR/150 that placed him 3rd among RF with a 54.7 RAR.

 

Drop that insane UZR to a more easily attainable mark and he's still around 4.4 in RAR which would be the 7th highest among all RF in 2009 and worth around ~$20M according to Fangraph's calculations.

 

If he hits like he did in '08 and fields like he did in '06 then he's an incredibly valuable RF.

Well, his statement followed an assumption that he averaged a .750 OPS. If he did, his runs above replacement from offense are zero or negligable. He would not provide us surplus value playing RF full time (using Fangraph's method) given his current guaranteed salary over that timeframe. I doubt it would make him the MOST overpaid RF in baseball, but yeah we would be paying him more than he's worth

[Kalapse]

Well, his statement followed an assumption that he averaged a .750 OPS. If he did, his runs above replacement from offense are zero or negligable. He would not provide us surplus value playing RF full time (using Fangraph's method) given his current guaranteed salary over that timeframe. I doubt it would make him the MOST overpaid RF in baseball, but yeah we would be paying him more than he's worth

You're right, I skipped over the .750 part, my appologies to DBAH0. If he can't get back to at least his '08 offensive production (which is what I was assuming) then yeah, he's making too damn much. If we assume he's not going to revert back to any semblance of the hitter he was from '06-'08 then it doesn't matter what position he's playing.

[Kalapse]

I'm not sure i see it. Yeah, our first exchange was a tad unclear, but the rest has been a pretty, logical back and forth. You said, that Gardner sounded a lot like Juan Pierre. I accepted the surface similarities, but instead chose to focus on Gardner's exceptional defense, and pretty modest ability to get on base for a man of his skill set. Obviously, yeah the issue is whether Gardner can hit to the gaps. because that's what the thought was on Pierre. In reality, nothing can be made of this till we try it, and honestly, i don't think it hurts us to try.

I never said that.

 

You mentioned Gardner's great speed and a hopeful metamorphosis into a gap hitter. There is no magic gap hitting, you have to be able to drive the ball into the gap, not loft it. If you're not strong enough to club the ball with some authority -- this is where I bring in Pierre's name, Jerry Owens or Reggie Willits would work as well -- you're not going to find the gaps since the outfielders will have ample time to track down the ball before it gets by them holding the bantam hitter to a single.

 

If you can't hit the ball hard you're probably not going to hit doubles, doesn't matter how fast you are or if you work on hitting the ball between defenders, you still have to get it by them.

 

So I never compared Gardner and Pierre's overall games, I was speaking to a larger point concerning players with great speed but no power.

[Ranger]

With the Teahen deal and Viciedo in the wings. Yeah, i think i would.

 

You know, I really wouldn't fall in love with Brent Morel just yet. Promising player, yes. And I'm curious to see how he turns out, but I would trade him in a second for a guy that's ready to play now. Besides, I don't think the Sox could be able to make a Gardner-for-Morel straight up.

 

 

I still don't think Viciedo is gonna be a viable option at 3B. He'll be a LF I think via the Carlos Lee mode...

 

They haven't completely given up on Viciedo at 3B just yet, but he won't play there ultimately. It wouldn't take all that long to convert him to LF/RF/1B, which is why they're going to totally exhaust the 3B option first. Harder to find a good power-hitting 3B than it is those other positions. But it doesn't look like they're going to wait all that long.

[ozzfest]

I was reading the yankee message boards just to see what they were saying about this in NY......I will never go back to a yankee board again, these fans are truly pathetic....they were talking about getting buehrle for gardner and a prospect, theyre justification:"We could take on his contract from the chisox".................makes me realize how much more intelligent chisox fans are.....love you guys

[macsandz]

You know, I really wouldn't fall in love with Brent Morel just yet. Promising player, yes. And I'm curious to see how he turns out, but I would trade him in a second for a guy that's ready to play now. Besides, I don't think the Sox could be able to make a Gardner-for-Morel straight up.

 

 

 

 

They haven't completely given up on Viciedo at 3B just yet, but he won't play there ultimately. It wouldn't take all that long to convert him to LF/RF/1B, which is why they're going to totally exhaust the 3B option first. Harder to find a good power-hitting 3B than it is those other positions. But it doesn't look like they're going to wait all that long.

 

Obviously signing Teahen for 3 years is gonna block Brent Morel and any other 3B. Viciedo should move to 1B now. He would replace Brandon Allen as the system's slugging 1B of the future.

 

BTW, why does 670 podcast 4 hours of Brian-The-Whipping Boy and not a full White Sox Weekly show...?!

[knightni]

BTW, why does 670 podcast 4 hours of Brian-The-Whipping Boy and not a full White Sox Weekly show...?!

Who is that?

[witesoxfan]

Obviously signing Teahen for 3 years is gonna block Brent Morel and any other 3B. Viciedo should move to 1B now. He would replace Brandon Allen as the system's slugging 1B of the future.

 

BTW, why does 670 podcast 4 hours of Brian-The-Whipping Boy and not a full White Sox Weekly show...?!

 

Will you please read the Teahen resigning thread and get, if just some, insight into MLB financials before thinking the Sox signed Teahen 3 years beyond his free agency years? Kthx

[eickevinmorris]

Kalapse, good work in this thread. We shouldn't be pissing our pants about Rios moving to RF, as it would drastically improve our defense by keeping the club-footed CQ in left. Gardner would be a good addition if his defense matches the fans' projections on Fangraphs.

[longshot7]

Who is that?

 

Q101 reference. Now Paruch on 670.

[DBAHO]

I wonder what D-backs fans were saying about Quentin before he played a full season in the bigs...

If you're trying to compare Carlos Quentin and Brett Gardner in there relative situations, Carlos Quentin was a former first round pick who at least showed a lot of potential (especially power wise) at the major league level.

 

Gardner is a completely different type of ballplayer.

[knightni]

Who would have thought that after all of those years struggling for a 4th/5th starter and middle infield that, someday the Sox's only needs would be a lead off guy, a middle reliever, and a DH/LF.

 

 

[Lillian]

Rios should be in CF. His offensive production is questionable and not up to the level of a corner outfielder. This team needs a bigger bat for the remaining outfield position. I'd prefer to see Jones in RF with Quentin in left and Rios is CF. Rios and Jones provide a better offensive and defensive combination than Gardner and Rios.

 

Of course that still doesn't provide a prototypical lead off guy, but Rios might perform better in that role than the higher pressure run producer role. Let Rios lead off. He has a very good success rate stealing bases. That would leave a left handed DH. as the only remaining offensive hole to fill.

 

I think De Aza already fills the role of a fourth outfielder for speed and defense. He and Gardner are similar players and he's actually a year younger than Gardner. Gardner probably has a better eye at the plate but De Aza probably has a better arm.

 

[LittleHurt05]

Scott Podesednik Jr

 

might as well re-sign Pods so at least we have some 05 nostalgia with him

[Kyyle23]

Q101 reference. Now Paruch on 670.

 

I think he still goes by that on 101.9 when he does his shows. The guy is everywhere, I am pretty sure he fills in at Q101 here and there too.

 

back to the discussion....

[Dick Allen]

Exactly what does Gardner bring offensively that Chris Getz did not?

[League]

Exactly what does Gardner bring offensively that Chris Getz did not?

Plus defense at a premium position and OBP potential.

[Dick Allen]

Plus defense at a premium position and OBP potential.

I said offensively. IMO Getz has as much OBP potential as Gardner. Getz got slammed around here. People said he had no power, wasn't exactly young for a rookie and wouldn't get better. You can say the exact same thing about Gardner. If he is such a stud waiting to happen, why are the Yankees, a team cutting payroll, bringing in expensive pieces to play in front of him? He's not an everyday player. He wouldn't be a bad guy to have off the bench, but leading off every day will make the fire Greg Walker threads grow.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Dick Allen

[League]

I said offensively. IMO Getz has as much OBP potential as Gardner. Getz got slammed around here. People said he had no power, wasn't exactly young for a rookie and wouldn't get better. You can say the exact same thing about Gardner. If he is such a stud waiting to happen, why are the Yankees, a team cutting payroll, bringing in expensive pieces to play in front of him? He's not an everyday player. He wouldn't be a bad guy to have off the bench, but leading off every day will make the fire Greg Walker threads grow.

Well then he replaces what we lost in Getz + Mark Teahan. I like having Becko's bat at 2b instead of Getz and Gardner has a good chance of outperforming Pods next season, so it looks like an upgrade across the board.

[Dick Allen]

Well then he replaces what we lost in Getz + Mark Teahan. I like having Becko's bat at 2b instead of Getz and Gardner has a good chance of outperforming Pods next season, so it looks like an upgrade across the board.

The White Sox offense wasn't good enough with Pods hitting over .300. Making Gardner the leadoff guy just weakens the White Sox offense. A nice bench player is what he is, but if KW gives up something good to get him, I think he's crazy.