White Sox acquire Juan Pierre

[Chisoxfn]

How about not wasting $8M on Pierre and instead finding someone off the scrapheap that can put up a ~.330 OBP for the minimum and play a little CF, they're out there. I'll gladly take a DH that can put up a decent OPS if it means no Kotsay or Andruw Jones, this is the AL you don't use your bench all that often and neither player has much flexibility anyway. I don't really give a s*** about either. And if Vizquel isn't going to be getting 250+ PA including time at DH I'm disappointed they signed him as well.

You can not, under any circumstance (at least not when healthy) break camp with Kotsay/Jones/Vizquel getting significant at bats at DH. Vizquel's value is as a back-up defensive player so DH'ing him would be assisine. Jones has proven he isn't the player he once was. Sure, he's young enough that he could figure things out, but he signed for 500K for a reason and the odds are far greater that he hits .220 with a s***-ton of strikeouts and 15HR's than he hits .270 with 35HR's. And Kotsay is great in a reserve/platoon role.

 

You limit Kotsay and keep him fresh and he'll be a real nice pinch-hitter, pinch-runner, defensive replacement (at 1st). Anything more and you are making a mistake.

 

Bottom line, the above scenario would be a f***ing joke and it better not happen. I don't expect that it will and I really hope all of this talk is the club playing coy. I am scared that Ozzie might actually think that it would be a good idea to use those guys as your DH.

[Kalapse]

Then compare him to other bench players, not regulars.

If he's going to be getting significant time at DH and OF then he's not a bench player and in the 3 seasons he's been healthy enough to manage starter level PA he's put up s*** numbers.

[Chisoxfn]

Matsui got 3.5 millioin, so you're basically talking not having Jones/Pierre/Omar. I would have much rather the Sox had Matsui and Putz. I don't even dislike Pierre.

Didn't he get 6.5 million?

[iamshack]

How about not wasting $8M on Pierre and instead finding someone off the scrapheap that can put up a ~.330 OBP for the minimum and play a little CF, they're out there. I'll gladly take a DH that can put up a decent OPS if it means no Kotsay or Andruw Jones, this is the AL you don't use your bench all that often and neither player has much flexibility anyway. I don't really give a s*** about either. And if Vizquel isn't going to be getting 250+ PA including time at DH I'm disappointed they signed him as well.

Oh, because I thought we've been trying to do that for 4 years now, Kal. Last I checked, it hasn't worked out. In fact it hasn't worked out so much that we brought back Scott Podsednik and he was probably the mvp of the damn offense last year, unfortunately.

 

I know you don't care for how this team is coming together, but I also think you're being a bit unrealistic.

[iamshack]

If he's going to be getting significant time at DH and OF then he's not a bench player and in the 3 seasons he's been healthy enough to manage starter level PA he's put up s*** numbers.

He's not going to get significant time anywhere. He'll fill in at 1b and DH when the matchup suits him. If he gets more than 300 PA's it will be because of injuries elsewhere.

[iamshack]

Didn't he get 6.5 million?

Yes. Fathom was mistaken.

[Kalapse]

Bottom line, the above scenario would be a f***ing joke and it better not happen. I don't expect that it will and I really hope all of this talk is the club playing coy. I am scared that Ozzie might actually think that it would be a good idea to use those guys as your DH.

The annoything thing is that Ozzie has been stating his desire to go with a rotating DH since mid-september, this isn't something started by Williams in recent days as a negotiating tactic, this appears to be something that the manager truly desires.

[monomach]

Even if that were to happen, would you rather go out and sign Vlad or Matsui and not have the flexibility we have now with Jones/Pierre/Vizquel and Putz? Because signing one of the few players available would have meant none of these other moves.

Jones is a scrapheap bencher. Ditto Vizquel. Pierre is a slap hitter who can't get on base and gets caught stealing too much. Putz is a giant question mark.

 

Hell, yes, I'd give them all up for Matsui and his .850+ OPS. We could have just signed Matsui, offered Carrasco a million in arbitration, signed a league-average outfielder for almost nothing, and used minor leaguers on the bench.

 

Hell, we'd even be better off with matsui at DH and Andruw Jones playing RF every day than we are with a rotating DH that puts up half the production of a real one.

Edited December 15, 2009 by monomach

[fathom]

Didn't he get 6.5 million?

 

sorry, I meant 6.5 million

[Chisoxfn]

If he's going to be getting significant time at DH and OF then he's not a bench player and in the 3 seasons he's been healthy enough to manage starter level PA he's put up s*** numbers.

Kotsay, if used properly, can be a very valuable bench guy. He handles the bat well, plays a nice defense at 1st base, and can give you a bit of flexibility and play decently out in left/right. He also has a stroke that should work off the bench well.

 

If the club is going to use him as a starter, than it would be a huge mistake. Kotsay isn't the player he was 7 or 8 years ago, he's physically limited and the only way you can get success out of him is as a role player. I really hope the Sox plan on using him that way.

 

Ozzie used him pretty good and effectively last year. He might have went with him a little long in certain stretches, but his performance warranted that. He's also just a great guy to have in the locker room.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Oh, because I thought we've been trying to do that for 4 years now, Kal. Last I checked, it hasn't worked out. In fact it hasn't worked out so much that we brought back Scott Podsednik and he was probably the mvp of the damn offense last year, unfortunately.

 

I know you don't care for how this team is coming together, but I also think you're being a bit unrealistic.

 

I agree with you here. There's just no realistic alternatives to what has become a chronic blackhole. Again, this just goes back to all the years of terrible drafting (I'm sounding a little like Tizzle of late).

[iamshack]

Jones is a scrapheap bencher. Ditto Vizquel. Pierre is a slap hitter who can't get on base and gets caught stealing too much. Putz is a giant question mark.

 

Hell, yes, I'd give them all up for Matsui and his .850+ OPS. We could have just signed Matsui, offered Carrasco a million in arbitration, signed a league-average outfielder for almost nothing, and used minor leaguers on the bench.

We just had Thome LAST YEAR who put up an .850 OPS and all anyone could do was rag on him for being slow and old.

Now we want to pay a very similar player $6.5 million, when the same guy we had last year can be had for half that.

 

Brilliant.

[Chisoxfn]

The annoything thing is that Ozzie has been stating his desire to go with a rotating DH since mid-september, this isn't something started by Williams in recent days as a negotiating tactic, this appears to be something that the manager truly desires.

Ya, that scares me. I hope Ozzie has some plan up his sleeve. I love the idea of a rotating DH, but it should consist of a few guys that the club can rotate and maybe one extra player that is young who could use the extra at bats (where the other guys rest) as developmental experience.

 

For example, if the club had 4 quality guys for the 3 OF spots and DH, plus a Tyler Flowers, I'd be perfectly content. But to use a rotating DH's at bats with Vizquel/Jones/Kotsay would be very bad, imo.

 

Nothing wrong with a rotating DH to keep guys fresh, just make sure we are talking about starting caliber players being a part of this combo. The Angels have excelled with this approach over the years, but they also aren't running a bunch of s*** out there either.

[Chisoxfn]

We just had Thome LAST YEAR who put up an .850 OPS and all anyone could do was rag on him for being slow and old.

Now we want to pay a very similar player $6.5 million, when the same guy we had last year can be had for half that.

 

Brilliant.

Matsui is a much more complete hitter than Jim Thome.

[fathom]

Nothing wrong with a rotating DH to keep guys fresh, just make sure we are talking about starting caliber players being a part of this combo. The Angels have excelled with this approach over the years, but they also aren't running a bunch of s*** out there either.

 

That's a great point. It's like when teams try to go Closer-by-committee. That works great when you have the Nasty Boys and have talented performers. It doesn't work so good when you have a bunch of mediocre players in the committee.

[iamshack]

Matsui is a much more complete hitter than Jim Thome.

Because he hits more doubles and less home runs?

[monomach]

Kotsay, if used properly, can be a very valuable bench guy. He handles the bat well, plays a nice defense at 1st base, and can give you a bit of flexibility and play decently out in left/right. He also has a stroke that should work off the bench well

aka Mackowiak, Erstad.

 

I hate Ozzie.

 

We just had Thome LAST YEAR who put up an .850 OPS and all anyone could do was rag on him for being slow and old.

The correct description for these people is "stupid." People who believe the smallball myth are morons, especially when we play in the ballpark we have.

[Kalapse]

Oh, because I thought we've been trying to do that for 4 years now, Kal. Last I checked, it hasn't worked out. In fact it hasn't worked out so much that we brought back Scott Podsednik and he was probably the mvp of the damn offense last year, unfortunately.

 

I know you don't care for how this team is coming together, but I also think you're being a bit unrealistic.

In 2007 when Podsednik went down the Sox plugged Darin Erstad and Jerry Owens into the leadoff spot. They both put up a .325 OBP, Erstad hit .284 and Jerry Owens stole 32 bases.

 

In 2008 the Sox get creative and put Nick Swisher in the leadoff spot and he manages a .354 OBP, unfortunately his .210 AVG led to his dismissal from the position. So the Sox plug another un-prototypical leadoff man into the role and get a .293 AVG and .341 OBP from Orlando Cabrera.

 

In 2009 the Sox stick an untalented old dude with a sub .300 career minor league OBP in the leadoff role and he f***ing blows (shocking) so they sign some dude with a little talent for the minimum and he puts up a .350+ OBP.

 

You don't have to waste money on Pierre to get a s***ty OBP out of your leadoff spot.

[iamshack]

aka Mackowiak, Erstad.

 

I hate Ozzie.

 

 

The correct description for these people is "stupid." People who believe the smallball myth are morons, especially when we play in the ballpark we have.

Then why not sign Thome for a third or a half of the price?

 

Because he's not Godzilla?

[iamshack]

In 2007 when Podsednik went down the Sox plugged Darin Erstad and Jerry Owens into the leadoff spot. They both put up a .325 OBP, Erstad hit .284 and Jerry Owens stole 32 bases.

 

In 2008 the Sox get creative and put Nick Swisher in the leadoff spot and he manages a .354 OBP, unfortunately his .210 AVG led to his dismissal from the position. So the Sox plug another un-prototypical leadoff man into the role and get a .293 AVG and .341 OBP from Orlando Cabrera.

 

In 2009 the Sox stick an untalented old dude with a sub .300 career minor league OBP in the leadoff role and he f***ing blows (shocking) so they sign some dude with a little talent for the minimum and he puts up a .350+ OBP.

 

You don't have to waste money on Pierre to get a s***ty OBP out of your leadoff spot.

I'm talking about the center field part.

 

You're going to honestly tell me that Pierre can't put up the same numbers OCab did?

[fathom]

Then why not sign Thome for a third or a half of the price?

 

Because he's not Godzilla?

 

Matsui hit .282 against LHP and .271 against RHP last season.

Thome hit .209 against LHP and .262 against RHP last season.

 

Matsui also hit 50 points higher with RISP, and doesn't seem to injure himself every time he runs out a ground ball.

[monomach]

Then why not sign Thome for a third or a half of the price?

 

Because he's not Godzilla?

Because Godzilla is 4 years younger and puts up the same OPS. I choose him over Thome simply because he can be here longer and there is less risk of him breaking down.

 

I'm not adverse to the idea of Thome being our DH next year. I simply acknowledge that when everything else is equal, younger is better.

[fathom]

Don't get me wrong, if we're just going to go with Kotsay/Jones at DH, then by all means, sign Thome for 2 million dollars.

[monomach]

I'm talking about the center field part.

 

You're going to honestly tell me that Pierre can't put up the same numbers OCab did?

wtf does CF have to do with anything? Even with Juan Pierre here, ouir CF is still Rios.

[Chisoxfn]

Because he hits more doubles and less home runs?

Because he hits to all fields, strikes out less, and is a better pure hitter at this point. He's a much more complete offensive player than Jim Thome. Thome's stats were heavily driven by HR's and Walks but he had major negatives in the fact that he had a poor average and very high strike-out totals. He is by definition an all or nothing player.

 

Look, I realize the OPS is nice. But with two guys on, I'd like to know I have a guy that can hit for good power and for a better average than a guy that will either walk, hit a 3 run HR or strike out.