White Sox acquire Juan Pierre

[Kalapse]

I'm talking about the center field part.

 

You're going to honestly tell me that Pierre can't put up the same numbers OCab did?

I only brought up CF because Pierre really can't play the position, you can find players off the scrapheap who won't kill you out there that will also put up a mediocre OBP like Pierre, AKA Jerry Owens ala 2007. All I'm asking for is around 20 non-awful games in CF from the leadoffman starting in LF, I don't think Pierre can give you that. I didn't mean a damn thing by it, we have a starting CF in Rios but Ozzie's still going to put the speedy LF in center every now and then and I hate the idea of Pierre ever playing center.

 

No, I don't think Pierre will put up a .340+ OBP. Why the hell should I?

[monomach]

I only brought up CF because Pierre really can't play the position, you can find players off the scrapheap who won't kill you out there that will also put up a mediocre OBP like Pierre, AKA Jerry Owens ala 2007. All I'm asking for is around 20 non-awful games in CF from the leadoffman starting in LF, I don't think Pierre can give you that.

 

No, I don't think Pierre will put up a .340+ OBP. Why the hell should I?

Because the fact that he did it last year makes all of his other years not count, of course.

[dyuen]

That kind of makes my point.

 

I also refuse to use injuries as an excuse for poor production.

 

And besides; he's gotten 430+ PA in 3 of the last 5 seasons.

 

Kotsay doesnt deserve every day at bats on the Pirates, let alone a division contender. He can't hit.

[iamshack]

Matsui hit .282 against LHP and .271 against RHP last season.

Thome hit .209 against LHP and .262 against RHP last season.

 

Matsui also hit 50 points higher with RISP, and doesn't seem to injure himself every time he runs out a ground ball.

No? He's been injured 3 of the past 4 years.

Thome has more 260 more PA's over the past 4 years than Matsui.

They're both .850 OPS players at this stage in their careers.

One has been here for the last four years and wants to remain here, for half the price of the other.

I'll take him.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Because he hits to all fields, strikes out less, and is a better pure hitter at this point. He's a much more complete offensive player than Jim Thome. Thome's stats were heavily driven by HR's and Walks but he had major negatives in the fact that he had a poor average and very high strike-out totals. He is by definition an all or nothing player.

 

Look, I realize the OPS is nice. But with two guys on, I'd like to know I have a guy that can hit for good power and for a better average than a guy that will either walk, hit a 3 run HR or strike out.

I was just going to post this. Matsui also hits very well against both lefties and righties. Thome is a career .238/.341/.422 hitter vs. LHP.

[WCSox]

Jones is a scrapheap bencher. Ditto Vizquel. Pierre is a slap hitter who can't get on base and gets caught stealing too much. Putz is a giant question mark.

 

Hell, yes, I'd give them all up for Matsui and his .850+ OPS. We could have just signed Matsui, offered Carrasco a million in arbitration, signed a league-average outfielder for almost nothing, and used minor leaguers on the bench.

 

Hell, we'd even be better off with matsui at DH and Andruw Jones playing RF every day than we are with a rotating DH that puts up half the production of a real one.

 

Vizquel at $1.4M is arguably a waste of money, but I like Jones' upside at almost 1/3 of that salary.

 

I understand the negatives about Pierre, who is likely to put up a .330-ish OBP next year and doesn't have a terribly high SB%. But the bottom line is that the Sox needed a semi-legit leadoff hitter who could also play a corner OF position. Since Kenny didn't have the money to over-pay Figgins, I'm not sure who would've been a better realistic fit. Getz? Willy Taveras? I'll take Pierre over Pods for health reasons alone. If there are better realistic options out there, I'm unaware of them.

 

And I'll take Putz over Carrasco in a New York minute. The Sox needed 7th/8th inning relief, not a journeyman long reliever who wants out of the bullpen. As good as Carrasco was last season, he isn't what the Sox need this year.

 

[iamshack]

Because he hits to all fields, strikes out less, and is a better pure hitter at this point. He's a much more complete offensive player than Jim Thome. Thome's stats were heavily driven by HR's and Walks but he had major negatives in the fact that he had a poor average and very high strike-out totals. He is by definition an all or nothing player.

 

Look, I realize the OPS is nice. But with two guys on, I'd like to know I have a guy that can hit for good power and for a better average than a guy that will either walk, hit a 3 run HR or strike out.

Thome can platoon though, is the point. Jones can face lefties and Thome righties, for still less than half the price (or thereabouts) that Matsui costs.

 

I could give two s***s where he is hitting the ball if they're not able to catch it at the same rate as they are not able to catch the balls Matsui hits.

 

And damn, I hate those walks and home runs....they kill me!

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Pierre sucks. This trade sucks. The way the Sox have spent their money sucks. Ozzie's rotation of crappy players for a DH sucks. This whole offseason sucks. We're not a National League ballclub and we do not play in a pitcher's paradise.

[iamshack]

Pierre sucks. This trade sucks. The way the Sox have spent their money sucks. Ozzie's rotation of crappy players for a DH sucks. This whole offseason sucks. We're not a National League ballclub and we do not play in a pitcher's paradise.

I can't wait to bring this thread back in about 10 months and show it to all you cranky mfers

[fathom]

Pierre sucks. This trade sucks. The way the Sox have spent their money sucks. Ozzie's rotation of crappy players for a DH sucks. This whole offseason sucks. We're not a National League ballclub and we do not play in a pitcher's paradise.

 

The trade is fine as long as there's another move coming.

[monomach]

Vizquel at $1.4M is arguably a waste of money, but I like Jones' upside at almost 1/3 of that salary.

 

I understand the negatives about Pierre, who is likely to put up a .330-ish OBP next year and doesn't have a terribly high SB%. But the bottom line is that the Sox needed a semi-legit leadoff hitter who could also play a corner OF position. Since Kenny didn't have the money to over-pay Figgins, I'm not sure who would've been a better realistic fit. Getz? Willy Taveras? I'll take Pierre over Pods for health reasons alone. If there are better realistic options out there, I'm unaware of them.

 

And I'll take Putz over Carrasco in a New York minute. The Sox needed 7th/8th inning relief, not a journeyman long reliever who wants out of the bullpen. As good as Carrasco was last season, he isn't what the Sox need this year.

Speed does not a leadoff hitter make.

 

OBP is what does it, and that's not Juan Pierre. Kevin youkilis was a good leadoff hitter. He never stole bases.

Edited December 15, 2009 by monomach

[Chisoxfn]

Thome can platoon though, is the point. Jones can face lefties and Thome righties, for still less than half the price (or thereabouts) that Matsui costs.

 

I could give two s***s where he is hitting the ball if they're not able to catch it at the same rate as they are not able to catch the balls Matsui hits.

 

And damn, I hate those walks and home runs....they kill me!

The point is, a guy that hits for a much higher average is much more likely to get the big hits than a guy who will either whack the heck out of the ball than not. Add in the fact that one hits for a significantly higher average with RISP and it really swings another way.

 

I realize Thome is cheap and I'd rather have him than Kotsay/Jones but that doesn't mean I'd be happy with it. He was one of the big things that was wrong with our offense. But he wasn't the only thing.

[Chisoxfn]

The trade is fine as long as there's another move coming.

Well there is what we've heard in quiet and than there is what the Sox have publicly stated. I'm going to hold out my hope that they are working on things. Kenny doesn't just sit around and I certainly hope we have the flexibility to add one more bat.

 

If we do, than this really has been a great off-season, especially when you consider the additions of Peavy/Garcia/Rios late last year.

[monomach]

I can't wait to bring this thread back in about 10 months and show it to all you cranky mfers

Why wait that long? You should bring it back when we're eliminated 2 months before that after being in the bottom 20% of the league in runs scored.

[YonderLaroche]

You guys are freaking out about KWs comments on the rotating DH... he's not gonna go out and say "I'm about to trade some more prospects for a bat" or I'm trying to sign (JD, THOME, VLAD, ETC) to fill the DH. Trust me Vizquel will never start a game at DH, if he does Ozzie has officially went nuts or wants to lose and get fired. I'm sure he wants Jones and Kotsay getting ABs but CQ, PK, Pierre, Rios will get days off and I imagine (as history shows) one will get injured or a may have a major slump... also both are dangerous pinch hitters and give us a deep, veteran bench. Vizquel will be used as a late inning defensive replacement for Ramirez/Teahen and get a few starts here and there.

[Kalapse]

No? He's been injured 3 of the past 4 years.

Thome has more 260 more PA's over the past 4 years than Matsui.

They're both .850 OPS players at this stage in their careers.

One has been here for the last four years and wants to remain here, for half the price of the other.

I'll take him.

2 of the past 4. Tweaking his hamstring and being put on the DL for 13 games as a precautionary measure doesn't count as an injury.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Thome can platoon though, is the point. Jones can face lefties and Thome righties, for still less than half the price (or thereabouts) that Matsui costs.

 

I could give two s***s where he is hitting the ball if they're not able to catch it at the same rate as they are not able to catch the balls Matsui hits.

 

And damn, I hate those walks and home runs....they kill me!

Maybe a Thome-Kotsay/Jones platoon would be pretty nice out of the #6 slot in an American League lineup but I think we need qiute a bit more than that. Kenny is filling this team with prototypical top or bottom lineup kind of hitters, and the only prototypical middle-of-the-order hitter we've got is Quentin ***IF*** he's healthy. I know the idea is that filling the lineup with gap hitters might make it easier to score runs without the longball, but we're not exactly loading up on OBP monsters either. Right now, Beckham, Quentin, and Paulie are the only guys we have who we can pencil in for a .350+ OBP.

[Kalapse]

You guys are freaking out about KWs comments on the rotating DH... he's not gonna go out and say "I'm about to trade some more prospects for a bat" or I'm trying to sign (JD, THOME, VLAD, ETC) to fill the DH. Trust me Vizquel will never start a game at DH, if he does Ozzie has officially went nuts or wants to lose and get fired. I'm sure he wants Jones and Kotsay getting ABs but CQ, PK, Pierre, Rios will get days off and I imagine (as history shows) one will get injured or a may have a major slump... also both are dangerous pinch hitters and give us a deep, veteran bench. Vizquel will be used as a late inning defensive replacement for Ramirez/Teahen and get a few starts here and there.

If Ozzie hadn't been floating the idea since mid-September this would be a non-issue but the fact of the matter is; this isn't something new, this is something that the manager of the team, a man who's been in love with Juan Pierre for 7 years truly wants and who's to say Ozzie doesn't get what he wants in the end?

[iamshack]

Why wait that long? You should bring it back when we're eliminated 2 months before that after being in the bottom 20% of the league in runs scored.

If we pitch like we are capable of, I could care less where we rank. We were 9 of 14 or something in 05', and we won 99 games and went 11-1 in the postseason against the likes of the almighty Red Sox and Angels.

 

I'm not saying let's not try and score runs, but we won all kinds of 1-run games with players just like Pierre/Vizquel/Jones in 2005, and I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more of it.

 

[iamshack]

2 of the past 4. Tweaking his hamstring and being put on the DL for 13 games as a precautionary measure doesn't count as an injury.

It does when he is referring to the same minor bs in regards to Thome.

 

If you guys are loose with your points, I'm going to be loose with my counterpoints.

[WCSox]

Speed does not a leadoff hitter make.

 

OBP is what does it, and that's not Juan Pierre. Kevin youkilis was a good leadoff hitter. He never stole bases.

 

I agree but, again, who was a better realistic option? Pods? Taveras? I completely agree that Pierre is better suited for the #9 spot, but a .290 BA and a .330 OBP with 30 SB is far from terrible. The only realistic in-house option that I can think of is Beckham, and him hitting leadoff would be an absolute waste of his RBI potential.

 

The only real negative that I can see with Pierre is his salary ($8M over the next two years). But the Sox are only paying $3M of that next year and the $5M that he's owed in 2011 will be mitigated by Paulie, AJ, and Jenks all likely being off the books. IMO, signing Pierre is only a bad idea IF Kenny expects Jones to get 500 AB this year at DH/OF. But if he can bring Thome or somebody with an .800+ OPS into the fold, I don't see Pierre's money as that much of a negative.

 

[mr_genius]

i like this move.

[iamshack]

Maybe a Thome-Kotsay/Jones platoon would be pretty nice out of the #6 slot in an American League lineup but I think we need qiute a bit more than that. Kenny is filling this team with prototypical top or bottom lineup kind of hitters, and the only prototypical middle-of-the-order hitter we've got is Quentin ***IF*** he's healthy. I know the idea is that filling the lineup with gap hitters might make it easier to score runs without the longball, but we're not exactly loading up on OBP monsters either. Right now, Beckham, Quentin, and Paulie are the only guys we have who we can pencil in for a .350+ OBP.

Do you really think we are bypassing a prototypical middle of the order in-lieu of these additions?

[fathom]

I can't believe I failed to mention this earlier, and I put it in the other thread, but Terry Boers said today that there's no way Thome is back with the Sox next year. He's generally in the know with Sox personnel issue.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Do you really think we are bypassing a prototypical middle of the order in-lieu of these additions?

Yes, I do. Kenny's comments said the #1 priority was the bench. Really? There's a hole in RF and a hole in DH, and the #1 priority is the bench? In the AL? Are you f***ing serious? Have you gone mad? But given how they've spent their money, it sure looks like it. Had they made Matsui their #1 target they could have afforded him, and a Beckham-Matsui-Quentin 3-4-5 might not be ideal, but it's certainly better than what we have now.

 

BTW, I imagine the Teahen deal looks all nice and sparkly now because people are expecting him to hit somewhere in the 7-9 range. What if he's 5th? What if we actually go into 2010 with AJ, Teahen, or Kotsay as the lefty to break up the Beckham-Quentin-Konerko trio? Or *shudder* something equally horrible like Jack Cust?

Edited December 15, 2009 by Kenny Hates Prospects