White Sox acquire Juan Pierre

[WCSox]

Just to throw this out there, Jimmy Rollins has a career OBP of .329 (.296 this season) and the Phillies haven't exactly sucked with him in the leadoff spot.

 

[G&T]

Just to throw this out there, Jimmy Rollins has a career OBP of .329 (.296 this season) and the Phillies haven't exactly sucked with him in the leadoff spot.

 

Rollins can hit 20 home runs. OBP isn't everything, but Rollins can make up for OBP deficiency with some power.

[WCSox]

Rollins can hit 20 home runs. OBP isn't everything, but Rollins can make up for OBP deficiency with some power.

 

Some of the responses here seem to suggest that it is.

 

It's the stolen bases (not the HRs) that put Rollins in the leadoff spot. Their lineup would arguably be more effective with Victorino (career .347 OBP, ~30 SB/year) leading off and Rollins hitting 2nd.

 

Edited December 17, 2009 by WCSox

[Ranger]

Shack... read the baseball fever thread... well take a look everything in this post.

 

 

As for the SB discussion, they really don't mean all that much to me. Certainly, they don't hurt and it's just another element of an offense. It's just one way to help you win, but it probably doesn't have THAT great of an effect (unless, of course, your entire team can steal bases) in this era of baseball. There seems to be this underlying feeling that the game will continue to move away from being HR-dominated. I don't know how much further away it will get, though.

 

Sox had the 6th most stolen bases in the league last year, and well, you know the outcome. Granted, Boston, Tampa, Texas and LA all had more than the Sox and were all pretty good teams. The Yankees stole just 2 fewer bases than the Sox did. The indication is that you still have to have guys in the middle of the order that can hit the ball and drive in runs. Regardless of how good your leadoff hitter is, he means nothing if the heart of the order doesn't hit.

 

That said, the "havoc" created by a leadoff hitter is really in the amount of extra pitches he likely sees in getting on base and in the fact that he'll force the pitcher to throw from the stretch. Many starters are more comfortable from the windup.

 

Really, the desire for teams to have a prototypical-type leadoff hitter comes from the reality that it's nearly impossible to assemble a team of mashers 1 through 9. As much as fans clamor for more speed and more stolen bases, the truth is a lineup would be dominating if it was constructed of nine 20+ HR guys(with a few hitting 30 or 40). Since you can't really do that, you try to at least get some speed at the top of the order that can do something different, like get on base and steal them.

[witesoxfan]

Some of the responses here seem to suggest that it is.

 

It's the stolen bases (not the HRs) that put Rollins in the leadoff spot. Their lineup would arguably be more effective with Victorino (career .347 OBP, ~30 SB/year) leading off and Rollins hitting 2nd.

 

If I were a Phillies fan, I would much prefer Victorino-Rollins than the other way around.

[qwerty]

If I were a Phillies fan, I would much prefer Victorino-Rollins than the other way around.

 

It would then be victorino, rollins, utley, howard and werth/ibanez... and ibanez did bat fifth in 67 games last season in comparison to werth who batted fifth 86 times. The more lefties the merrier, you can almost never have too many, if you have a good enough bench to compliment them.

Edited December 17, 2009 by qwerty

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Juan Pierre will be hated here. I have no doubt about that. When the Sox make the same mistake Jim Hendry made a few years back you know trouble is brewing.

[flavum]

Trade finalized.

 

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/press...sp&c_id=cws

[RockRaines]

Dammit, I hoping somehow Ely slipped out of the trade. Its nice to have an illinois and a Miami University guy in the org.

[greg775]

Juan Pierre will be hated here. I have no doubt about that. When the Sox make the same mistake Jim Hendry made a few years back you know trouble is brewing.

 

I would tend to agree. Once they get on the field and we see what we actually got, the venom comes out.

Hope this speed thing works.

Edited December 18, 2009 by greg775

[Balta1701]

There were lots of less-glamorous moves this week. The one I hated most was the Dodgers shipping Juan Pierre to the Chicago White Sox. It's not that this is indefensible -- Pierre is a moderately useful fourth outfielder who will be paid as such, and it's not his fault that he'll be asked to start. The problem here is that it's the cap on a series of sadly uninspired moves from usually creative White Sox general manager Ken Williams. Granted, he's laboring under money constraints but hauling in the decrepit likes of Pierre, Andruw Jones and Omar Vizquel shows an uncharacteristic lack of imagination. So did trading off Chris Getz and Josh Fields for Mark Teahen, a more expensive model off the same line of possibly passable players. Outfielders like Austin Kearns and Coco Crisp (or others like them, if these two have bad medicals or what have you) are available for even less than Pierre and are quite likely to outplay him.

 

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writ...l#ixzz0aBFUUYRG

[EvilJester99]

I would have rather of take Crisp over Pierre but Oz and KW love the guy....

[SoxAce]

I have no idea how many times I've mentioned Austin Kearns on this site... but I'm glad it's been credited as a creative imaginative thought.

[Quin]

Dammit, I hoping somehow Ely slipped out of the trade. Its nice to have an illinois and a Miami University guy in the org.

 

I wanted to see him make it to the Sox just because he was a Sox fan, and it was probably his dream to make it the the bigs with the Sox.

 

However, doesn't make me shed tears that he's gone.

[Voros]

I think the point people are trying to make is that Albert Pujols would be the best leadoff hitter in baseball.

 

The problem of course is that his value is better served in the middle of a lineup. Not hitting for power is not a feature for a leadoff hitter, it's just that it's a weakness that doesn't cost as much if he bats a lot with no one on base (as leadoff hitters tend to do, especially in the NL).

 

Pierre's problem is that not only does he not hit for power, he only has average-ish on base skills to go with it making him a very dubious hitter anywhere in the lineup. Now he's almost certainly a plus glove in left field despite his lousy arm, so that does help but this team really had huge offensive shortcomings last year and haven't replaced the biggest offensive producer (and another guy who was in the top third of their producers) with anything remotely comparable. At this point they really have two starters at the three outfield positions and DH, and have a bunch of guys who probably are good bench guys but not good enough to play every day.

 

Way earlier in the offseason I suggested Nick Johnson as a good signing and he's now with the Yankees for significantly less money than the combined salaries of Pierre and Teahen.

 

I hope the White Sox have their best starting pitching in 20 years next year, they'll need it (or monstrous breakouts from guys like Beckham, Ramirez and Quentin) to be a 90 win team. You can talk about the park making some hitters statistics look better, but then they're gonna make Jake Peavy's look a lot worse (considering Peavy played in the best pitcher's park in baseball).

[iamshack]

I think the point people are trying to make is that Albert Pujols would be the best leadoff hitter in baseball.

 

The problem of course is that his value is better served in the middle of a lineup. Not hitting for power is not a feature for a leadoff hitter, it's just that it's a weakness that doesn't cost as much if he bats a lot with no one on base (as leadoff hitters tend to do, especially in the NL).

 

Pierre's problem is that not only does he not hit for power, he only has average-ish on base skills to go with it making him a very dubious hitter anywhere in the lineup. Now he's almost certainly a plus glove in left field despite his lousy arm, so that does help but this team really had huge offensive shortcomings last year and haven't replaced the biggest offensive producer (and another guy who was in the top third of their producers) with anything remotely comparable. At this point they really have two starters at the three outfield positions and DH, and have a bunch of guys who probably are good bench guys but not good enough to play every day.

 

Way earlier in the offseason I suggested Nick Johnson as a good signing and he's now with the Yankees for significantly less money than the combined salaries of Pierre and Teahen.

I hope the White Sox have their best starting pitching in 20 years next year, they'll need it (or monstrous breakouts from guys like Beckham, Ramirez and Quentin) to be a 90 win team. You can talk about the park making some hitters statistics look better, but then they're gonna make Jake Peavy's look a lot worse (considering Peavy played in the best pitcher's park in baseball).

 

Good post.

Pierre and Teahan will be paid about $6 million combined this year. Johnson will make $5.5 plus incentives. I wouldn't say they are paying the two "significantly" more than Johnson alone is making from the Yankees though.

[Voros]

Pierre and Teahan will be paid about $6 million combined this year. Johnson will make $5.5 plus incentives. I wouldn't say they are paying the two "significantly" more than Johnson alone is making from the Yankees though.

Well I'm not really worried about the way they're splitting up the money they're getting from the two deals (time value of money is important but not that important). Money saved this year by that method is money spent next year, so if Johnson's deal was two years at $11.5 the White Sox would be paying significantly more for Pierre and Teahen still. IIRC it's two years and around $13 million total for the two after the cash back is factored in.

 

 

My point is simply that the White Sox have spent money this offseason in a way that probably could have been spent a little more wisely. A million here and there on Kotsay and Vizquel, a few million on Teahen and four million on Pierre and you're now starting to talk about a fairly decent chunk of change on a group of players that aren't much of an upgrade from the Ryan Shealys that float about the league this time of year at league min. Throw in $3 million on a player like Putz with a good track record but recent concerns and it's actually quite a bit of money that's been spent.

 

Any one of those moves in and of itself really isn't anything to worry about. But in total it seems like there were better ways to spend that money. Could the White Sox still win the division? Sure. But considering what else is going on in this division and the amount of money they're spending, the White Sox should be clear favorites in this division and they certainly aren't that right now.

[iamshack]

Well I'm not really worried about the way they're splitting up the money they're getting from the two deals (time value of money is important but not that important). Money saved this year by that method is money spent next year, so if Johnson's deal was two years at $11.5 the White Sox would be paying significantly more for Pierre and Teahen still. IIRC it's two years and around $13 million total for the two after the cash back is factored in.

 

 

My point is simply that the White Sox have spent money this offseason in a way that probably could have been spent a little more wisely. A million here and there on Kotsay and Vizquel, a few million on Teahen and four million on Pierre and you're now starting to talk about a fairly decent chunk of change on a group of players that aren't much of an upgrade from the Ryan Shealys that float about the league this time of year at league min. Throw in $3 million on a player like Putz with a good track record but recent concerns and it's actually quite a bit of money that's been spent.

 

Any one of those moves in and of itself really isn't anything to worry about. But in total it seems like there were better ways to spend that money. Could the White Sox still win the division? Sure. But considering what else is going on in this division and the amount of money they're spending, the White Sox should be clear favorites in this division and they certainly aren't that right now.

 

Absolutely. While no one player has really broken the bank, the combined total they have spent could have probably been spent on a more high-profile FA. And while I like the depth we now have, it is definitely debatable whether those bench or platoon players are really going to offer us more than some of the league-minimum type players floating around would have.

 

Personally, I'm good with the moves. We have a fairly veteran club, and I think if we can get things moving in the right direction from the start, we might see something pretty special this year. Now I'm not floating the chemistry bs, I'm just saying that if we can get off on a winning track, I think there is a good chance the vets could settle into their roles while the younger players carry the team a bit on the offensive side of the ball.

 

I really think this is going to be a fun team.

 

[Voros]

I really think this is going to be a fun team.

I'm less optimistic because I think the biggest strength of the White Sox right now is the weaknesses of their divisional opposition. If one of them manages to sort things out (or Minnesota doesn't crater), I'm not sure this team is good enough to fight it out with them. Everyone except Kansas City has a shot at this, and so I'd have preferred a plan that either aggressively targeted 2010 or aggressively targeted the future. This offseason hasn't seemed to accomplish either.

 

To put it more simply: the chances of any one team getting lucky ain't great. The chances of one of three teams getting lucky is much better, and I don't think the White Sox are good enough to beat that unless they get lucky too. If the White Sox get unlucky (injuries unusually poor performances) it's over pretty quickly.

[witesoxfan]

I think Williams is trying to recreate 2005. He wants the studly pitching staff (he didn't know he had 4 sub-4 ERAs before the season, considering neither Garland nor Contreras had ever done anything like it), a good bullpen (hasn't moved Jenks and brought in Putz while hoping for others to break out), and a very balanced lineup. Early in the season, the Sox had an absolutely dreadful lineup. He's trying to avoid having that.

 

I still think Thome is going to wind up back here next year, but unless he absolutely starts tearing the cover off the ball against both righties and lefties (which is almost certainly not going to happen), he's going to have a reduced role and will probably only play 120 games. That still leaves Ozzie with a rotating DH, the ability of great pinch hitters, some flexibility off the bench. And another left handed hitter really doesn't hurt.

[iamshack]

I think Williams is trying to recreate 2005. He wants the studly pitching staff (he didn't know he had 4 sub-4 ERAs before the season, considering neither Garland nor Contreras had ever done anything like it), a good bullpen (hasn't moved Jenks and brought in Putz while hoping for others to break out), and a very balanced lineup. Early in the season, the Sox had an absolutely dreadful lineup. He's trying to avoid having that.

 

I still think Thome is going to wind up back here next year, but unless he absolutely starts tearing the cover off the ball against both righties and lefties (which is almost certainly not going to happen), he's going to have a reduced role and will probably only play 120 games. That still leaves Ozzie with a rotating DH, the ability of great pinch hitters, some flexibility off the bench. And another left handed hitter really doesn't hurt.

 

Absolutely agree about 2005, as well as Thome.

 

We'll see what happens I guess.

[witesoxfan]

Absolutely agree about 2005, as well as Thome.

 

We'll see what happens I guess.

 

I'm about 95% sure what Williams is going to do to fill out the offseason, so naturally means I have absolutely no idea.

 

"We'll see" is the correct answer to every question at this point.

[Ranger]

Well I'm not really worried about the way they're splitting up the money they're getting from the two deals (time value of money is important but not that important). Money saved this year by that method is money spent next year, so if Johnson's deal was two years at $11.5 the White Sox would be paying significantly more for Pierre and Teahen still. IIRC it's two years and around $13 million total for the two after the cash back is factored in.

 

 

My point is simply that the White Sox have spent money this offseason in a way that probably could have been spent a little more wisely. A million here and there on Kotsay and Vizquel, a few million on Teahen and four million on Pierre and you're now starting to talk about a fairly decent chunk of change on a group of players that aren't much of an upgrade from the Ryan Shealys that float about the league this time of year at league min. Throw in $3 million on a player like Putz with a good track record but recent concerns and it's actually quite a bit of money that's been spent.

 

Any one of those moves in and of itself really isn't anything to worry about. But in total it seems like there were better ways to spend that money. Could the White Sox still win the division? Sure. But considering what else is going on in this division and the amount of money they're spending, the White Sox should be clear favorites in this division and they certainly aren't that right now.

 

 

What were better ways to spend the money? What you're doing is trying to compare the signing of one big free agent to signing 4 players for the same amount of money. Sure, they could have done that, but that would still leave them with holes. So then what would you do about those vacancies? For roughly $12 million for next season, they've acquired a leadoff hitter/leftfielder, a thirdbaseman, two decent veteran bench players, and a pretty good reliever (if he remains healthy, which isn't a stretch, he'll be good). I'm not sure how you can say they could've spent the money any more wisely as they've filled 5 holes with a small amount of cash.

 

 

 

Absolutely. While no one player has really broken the bank, the combined total they have spent could have probably been spent on a more high-profile FA. And while I like the depth we now have, it is definitely debatable whether those bench or platoon players are really going to offer us more than some of the league-minimum type players floating around would have.

 

Personally, I'm good with the moves. We have a fairly veteran club, and I think if we can get things moving in the right direction from the start, we might see something pretty special this year. Now I'm not floating the chemistry bs, I'm just saying that if we can get off on a winning track, I think there is a good chance the vets could settle into their roles while the younger players carry the team a bit on the offensive side of the ball.

 

I really think this is going to be a fun team.

 

 

The players they've picked up will collectively perform better than league-minimum talent level. You would've been severely unhappy with the types of players they could've signed for the minimum.

[Mattchoo]

 

Well I'm not really worried about the way they're splitting up the money they're getting from the two deals (time value of money is important but not that important). Money saved this year by that method is money spent next year, so if Johnson's deal was two years at $11.5 the White Sox would be paying significantly more for Pierre and Teahen still. IIRC it's two years and around $13 million total for the two after the cash back is factored in.

 

 

My point is simply that the White Sox have spent money this offseason in a way that probably could have been spent a little more wisely. A million here and there on Kotsay and Vizquel, a few million on Teahen and four million on Pierre and you're now starting to talk about a fairly decent chunk of change on a group of players that aren't much of an upgrade from the Ryan Shealys that float about the league this time of year at league min. Throw in $3 million on a player like Putz with a good track record but recent concerns and it's actually quite a bit of money that's been spent.

 

Any one of those moves in and of itself really isn't anything to worry about. But in total it seems like there were better ways to spend that money. Could the White Sox still win the division? Sure. But considering what else is going on in this division and the amount of money they're spending, the White Sox should be clear favorites in this division and they certainly aren't that right now.

 

Maybe I've just bought into what the white sox are selling us this offseason, but I love how they've spent their limited money. Did you really want to go into the season again with a bench of Lillibridge, Betemit, Fields, Miller, and Nix? First off that bench is (was) absolutely horrible. Second, and more importantly, we have a manager that constantly will swap out starters to give them a rest at least once a week. We all know how much fun those lazy summer Sunday lineups are.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Great article, Balta.

 

The Sox are spending $8M on Juan Pierre for 2 years. Even if Gardner cost a good prospect, that move would still have represented a savings of $7.2M. Kenny didn't even unload Linebrink in the deal, which would have made the deal defensible assuming the Dodgers ate the remaining salary. The Sox got hosed and the Dodgers made out like bandits, clearing $8M of a bad deal off the books, which is more than enough to fill the 4th OF spot with a capable veteran and still have lots left over to address other needs, and in making this deal the Dodgers *also* picked up a couple potentially useful players in Link and especially Ely.

 

This offseason is the worst offseason Kenny has had since the early years of his GM career. I'm so glad we've now got $15.25M in 2011 committed to Linebrink, Pierre, and Teahen. Boy, that's soooo much better than only having $5.5M committed to Linebrink. It's an absolute waste of money, especially in this market. If I knew the Sox were going to trade for Mark Teahen and give him 3 years guaranteed I'd have never argued against giving Figgins 4.

 

BTW it's also funny how Kenny is emphasizing defense and then not following through. Our LF has no arm, our RF is for some reason extremely overrated on this board for his defense when if you watch him he actually sucks, and our new 3B is probably average at best. It's not like we got worlds better over what we already had, and the major improvements we'll see on D this year will have more to do with a full year of Rios in CF and Alexei being in his sophomore year as a SS.

 

If the Sox offense tanks this year like it should be expected to, then someone needs to get fired.

Edited December 20, 2009 by Kenny Hates Prospects