White Sox acquire Juan Pierre

[Ranger]

Maybe I've just bought into what the white sox are selling us this offseason, but I love how they've spent their limited money. Did you really want to go into the season again with a bench of Lillibridge, Betemit, Fields, Miller, and Nix? First off that bench is (was) absolutely horrible. Second, and more importantly, we have a manager that constantly will swap out starters to give them a rest at least once a week. We all know how much fun those lazy summer Sunday lineups are.

 

The Sunday lineup thing is kind of a myth. They were as bad on Fridays as they were on Sundays. And naturally, like any other team, lineups are usually different on day games after night games. Watch other teams...they do the same thing.

[SoxAce]

I think Williams is trying to recreate 2005. He wants the studly pitching staff (he didn't know he had 4 sub-4 ERAs before the season, considering neither Garland nor Contreras had ever done anything like it), a good bullpen (hasn't moved Jenks and brought in Putz while hoping for others to break out), and a very balanced lineup. Early in the season, the Sox had an absolutely dreadful lineup. He's trying to avoid having that.

 

I still think Thome is going to wind up back here next year, but unless he absolutely starts tearing the cover off the ball against both righties and lefties (which is almost certainly not going to happen), he's going to have a reduced role and will probably only play 120 games. That still leaves Ozzie with a rotating DH, the ability of great pinch hitters, some flexibility off the bench. And another left handed hitter really doesn't hurt.

 

Agreed. But we better hope some players have career years like 2005 (I.E. Garland, Cotts, Pollite, etc..) For some odd reason, I have a good feeling about Teahan at least. We'll see.

Edited December 20, 2009 by SoxAce

[witesoxfan]

Maybe I've just bought into what the white sox are selling us this offseason, but I love how they've spent their limited money. Did you really want to go into the season again with a bench of Lillibridge, Betemit, Fields, Miller, and Nix? First off that bench is (was) absolutely horrible. Second, and more importantly, we have a manager that constantly will swap out starters to give them a rest at least once a week. We all know how much fun those lazy summer Sunday lineups are.

 

The Sox were without most of those players by June, except Nix, who was fantastic against left handed pitching. I don't see how that bench is relevant.

 

Beyond that, I would be curious to see how much a good bench contributes to a team compared to a bad bench in the AL. My guess would be that it culminates in generally 1-2 more wins, but I guess I wouldn't be certain.

 

I have no problem with what Williams has done this offseason; he just ran into a bad offseason in regards to relief pitching, because I would bet that in most offseasons he would be able to get rid of Linebrink for free.

[Ozzie Ball]

Well I'm not really worried about the way they're splitting up the money they're getting from the two deals (time value of money is important but not that important). Money saved this year by that method is money spent next year, so if Johnson's deal was two years at $11.5 the White Sox would be paying significantly more for Pierre and Teahen still. IIRC it's two years and around $13 million total for the two after the cash back is factored in.

 

 

My point is simply that the White Sox have spent money this offseason in a way that probably could have been spent a little more wisely. A million here and there on Kotsay and Vizquel, a few million on Teahen and four million on Pierre and you're now starting to talk about a fairly decent chunk of change on a group of players that aren't much of an upgrade from the Ryan Shealys that float about the league this time of year at league min. Throw in $3 million on a player like Putz with a good track record but recent concerns and it's actually quite a bit of money that's been spent.

 

Any one of those moves in and of itself really isn't anything to worry about. But in total it seems like there were better ways to spend that money. Could the White Sox still win the division? Sure. But considering what else is going on in this division and the amount of money they're spending, the White Sox should be clear favorites in this division and they certainly aren't that right now.

Post more often. I agree with a lot of what you have just said.

 

Given the rotation that we have this team could have been turned into a potential 90 win ballclub with a couple of choice offensive signings, but instead, Kenny has spent a decent chunk of change, as you put it, and in return we have a selection of fairly mediocre players. They seem to be expecting some sort of resurgent year from Teahen, and perhaps that happens, but when he hasn't shown that ability for two straight years now you should really look at his potential resurgence as a bonus, not a necessary requirement in order for this to be a good offensive team. The DH spot is still a big issue. I can't believe that Ozzie said he's satisfied with this rotating DH monstrosity, but if he really did then he should have been fired on the spot. We all knew he was insane, but to have somebody that clueless in charge of your ballclub is really an embarrassment.

 

Nick Johnson plus a Randy Winn type would have been doable and would have put us in a much better position than we're currently in.

[Ranger]

Great article, Balta.

 

The Sox are spending $8M on Juan Pierre for 2 years. Even if Gardner cost a good prospect, that move would still have represented a savings of $7.2M. Kenny didn't even unload Linebrink in the deal, which would have made the deal defensible assuming the Dodgers ate the remaining salary. The Sox got hosed and the Dodgers made out like bandits, clearing $8M of a bad deal off the books, which is more than enough to fill the 4th OF spot with a capable veteran and still have lots left over to address other needs, and in making this deal the Dodgers *also* picked up a couple potentially useful players in Link and especially Ely.

 

This offseason is the worst offseason Kenny has had since the early years of his GM career. I'm so glad we've now got $15.25M in 2011 committed to Linebrink, Pierre, and Teahen. Boy, that's soooo much better than only having $5.5M committed to Linebrink. It's an absolute waste of money, especially in this market. If I knew the Sox were going to trade for Mark Teahen and give him 3 years guaranteed I'd have never argued against giving Figgins 4.

 

BTW it's also funny how Kenny is emphasizing defense and then not following through. Our LF has no arm, our RF is for some reason extremely overrated on this board for his defense when if you watch him he actually sucks, and our new 3B is probably average at best. It's not like we got worlds better over what we already had, and the major improvements we'll see on D this year will have more to do with a full year of Rios in CF and Alexei being in his sophomore year as a SS.

 

If the Sox offense tanks this year like it should be expected to, then someone needs to get fired.

 

A lot of hyperbole, dude. Worst offseason? Come on, man. On a limited budget, he's done pretty well. The defense, as a whole, is better than it was to start last year. Pierre is a good fielder, who cares about his arm? Teahen is fine defensively, not a gold glover, but he'll be just fine. Quentin will be better than Dye, and I think you're underrating his defense. Just a lot of negative hyperbole.

 

And if you think there was a team out there just dying to take the Linebrink contract, and give the Sox good players in return, you're out of your mind.

[iamshack]

What were better ways to spend the money? What you're doing is trying to compare the signing of one big free agent to signing 4 players for the same amount of money. Sure, they could have done that, but that would still leave them with holes. So then what would you do about those vacancies? For roughly $12 million for next season, they've acquired a leadoff hitter/leftfielder, a thirdbaseman, two decent veteran bench players, and a pretty good reliever (if he remains healthy, which isn't a stretch, he'll be good). I'm not sure how you can say they could've spent the money any more wisely as they've filled 5 holes with a small amount of cash.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The players they've picked up will collectively perform better than league-minimum talent level. You would've been severely unhappy with the types of players they could've signed for the minimum.

Yeah, probably, which is why the overall tone of my post was very positive.

 

However, I think an argument can definitely be made that they should have signed Matsui and Johnson and filled out the remaining spots with some league-minimum type guys. Believe it or not, there are some out there to be had.

 

As I said though, I like the moves that have been made - I think we'll be the most well-rounded we've been since 2005 or 2006 - but there definitely is an argument that can be made that the team could have been improved in more key areas by taking a slightly different approach.

[Ranger]

Post more often. I agree with a lot of what you have just said.

 

Given the rotation that we have this team could have been turned into a potential 90 win ballclub with a couple of choice offensive signings, but instead, Kenny has spent a decent chunk of change, as you put it, and in return we have a selection of fairly mediocre players. They seem to be expecting some sort of resurgent year from Teahen, and perhaps that happens, but when he hasn't shown that ability for two straight years now you should really look at his potential resurgence as a bonus, not a necessary requirement in order for this to be a good offensive team. The DH spot is still a big issue. I can't believe that Ozzie said he's satisfied with this rotating DH monstrosity, but if he really did then he should have been fired on the spot. We all knew he was insane, but to have somebody that clueless in charge of your ballclub is really an embarrassment.

 

Nick Johnson plus a Randy Winn type would have been doable and would have put us in a much better position than we're currently in.

 

 

Totally disagree. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts. They sign two players like that for the same money and are still left with holes to fill. As it stands now, I think they still have a hole. And that's after they've made those other acquisitions.

 

And "fired on the spot"? Come on, man. You want him to tell the press he thinks his team isn't good enough? That's just absurd.

[Ranger]

Yeah, probably, which is why the overall tone of my post was very positive.

 

However, I think an argument can definitely be made that they should have signed Matsui and Johnson and filled out the remaining spots with some league-minimum type guys. Believe it or not, there are some out there to be had.

 

As I said though, I like the moves that have been made - I think we'll be the most well-rounded we've been since 2005 or 2006 - but there definitely is an argument that can be made that the team could have been improved in more key areas by taking a slightly different approach.

 

 

Yes, it could have...if they had more money to spend. The issue is not how they've spent, but how much they've been able to spend.

[witesoxfan]

A lot of hyperbole, dude. Worst offseason? Come on, man. On a limited budget, he's done pretty well. The defense, as a whole, is better than it was to start last year. Pierre is a good fielder, who cares about his arm? Teahen is fine defensively, not a gold glover, but he'll be just fine. Quentin will be better than Dye, and I think you're underrating his defense. Just a lot of negative hyperbole.

 

And if you think there was a team out there just dying to take the Linebrink contract, and give the Sox good players in return, you're out of your mind.

 

Uhh, Chris Burke being driven in by Jose Vizcaino. Arm strength matters

[iamshack]

Yes, it could have...if they had more money to spend. The issue is not how they've spent, but how much they've been able to spend.

Well, as I said, I tend to agree with you, but how can you say for sure that Vizquel and Kotsay and Putz really are going to give you more than a few league-minimum type guys? And even if they did, you can definitely argue that getting a fewer high-profile guys who would be getting most of the playing time would have a far greater impact than some lesser role players who would be getting very little playing time.

 

I think the crux of the disapproval here is that many of the moves Kenny has made are moves a team like the Yankees or Red Sox make to shore up holes in their roster, after they have already addressed all their key needs. A lot of people think Kenny made these moves in lieu of actually addressing his key needs. I think KHP even stated that Kenny has approached things backwards, which is a pretty accurate way of looking at things.

[iamshack]

Uhh, Chris Burke being driven in by Jose Vizcaino. Arm strength matters

Ohh come on man, Scottie let him score so he could be the hero in the bottom of the inning.

 

Jeesh.

 

[SoxAce]

Totally disagree. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts. They sign two players like that for the same money and are still left with holes to fill. As it stands now, I think they still have a hole. And that's after they've made those other acquisitions.

 

I agree with what your saying, but you can't dismiss what Ozzie Ball was saying either. I can't speak for Randy Winn but say we signed Nick Johnson to 5.5 mil and traded for Gardner (KW mighta overpaid a bit, but as long as it wasn't Hudson or Flowers couldn't careless about the other "top" prospects) who makes the minimum.. whose to say he still could have signed Austin Kearns (whose had a couple bad years on a terrible Nationals team, but has a career .353 OBP and is one of the best defensive RF in the game) for next to little? (And btw, have no problem with the Putz signing and Teahan addition) That's what some mean by creativity which KW has been really good at in the past. I just think he "settled" for Pierre more or less cause of Ozzie's stress with a leadoff hitter, and Pierre being a veteran certainally helps that though I was never a fan of his (hopefully he can hit like last season or his Marlin years when he was younger). Not saying even THOSE additions would be as good/worse as the guys we have now, but I would certianally feel much better about them given their history in their numbers which is what some feel is mediocrity we've been getting, and honestly... it's hard to argue that unless what a couple said.. maybe we strike lightening with a couple of them having career years. (and I still feel good about Teahan this season)

[bmags]

nice post soxAce.

 

As some have said, as piece by piece got signed, I, too, was like "oh it's just a couple million", but as a whole, the $15 or so million now given out is rather disappointing when seeing who it was given to. Putz and Jones, I'm fine with. Vizquel, sure. They seem fine face value, but when you stop there, I don't know. I just don't trust Quentin and Ramirez to duplicate 08, Konerko to even put up even 07, and we're all praying to God Rios can be his 08 self. I thought we'd grab one sure thing in terms of adding some power and OBP, and we've done anything but.

[Quin]

I don't understand the Nick Johnson love. He seems like a good guy for the Yankees, where he isn't supposed the be the big bat, and if he gets injured, they can probably deal with it.

 

With the Sox, I just couldn't see it being a "this gets us deep in the playoffs" signing unless Quentin, Alexei, Rios, Beckham, and even Paulie just mash.

[ptatc]

Totally disagree. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts. They sign two players like that for the same money and are still left with holes to fill. As it stands now, I think they still have a hole. And that's after they've made those other acquisitions.

 

And "fired on the spot"? Come on, man. You want him to tell the press he thinks his team isn't good enough? That's just absurd.

 

Nope the only thing that matters is their individual stats.

[jphat007]

KW is counting on way too many bounce back years.

[witesoxfan]

Nope the only thing that matters is their individual stats.

 

You were joking, but where would any team be without individual stats?

[Voros]

What were better ways to spend the money?

Well money spent on Vizquel on Kotsay to me are wastes. They're no better than guys like Mike McCoy and Ryan Langerhans who are available for league minimum, a handshake and a kind word. I'm not sure Kotsay is even much better than De Aza at this stage of their careers and the Sox already have him. Even if Kotsay and Vizquel are slightly better (extremely doubtful in Kotsay's case), if the two play enough to where "slightly better" has any meaning, the team is in trouble anyway. There's two million saved.

 

Then trading Getz and Fields for a player not any better than Getz but considerably more expensive is another two million gone.

 

Andruw was a decent pickup since he only costs you more than league minimum if he actually does something.

 

Third man out of the bullpen is probably not someone you want to be spending $3 million on, particularly when it means you can't tender a guy who was an effective workhorse out of the pen last year. Putz does have a track record of some success, but he's always had control problems and obviously 2009 wasn't the most encouraging season. I wouldn't have spent that money that way. That's $2.5 million saved.

 

$4 million on Juan Pierre is a considerable overpay in and of itself and Ely wasn't a completely worthless chip either. Pierre is the kind of bench player you spend $1.5 million on, but that wasn't on the table. So that's $3.5 million saved.

 

That's $12 million above league minimum for those slots. Fill guys like McCoy and Langerhans in at two of the slots. The Andruw deal is fine for one of the slots. So far we haven't spent any of that $12 million. $5 million for Nick Johnson or $5.5 if you think the White Sox needed to exceed the Yankees offer. So that's $6.5 million for an outfielder (Marlon Byrd or Rick Ankiel are both good players likely available for less than that) and a middle reliever to fill out the 25 (and a league minimum backup catcher).

 

To me guys like Kotsay and Vizquel and Teahen haven't filled any holes. They aren't any better than options the White Sox already had available to them. Then when it comes to guys like Pierre, you can get a better player for the same kind of money. Finally when it comes to Putz, you're spending a premium to fill a not all that critical position on the team on a guy whose recent history ain't all that great. I don't like any of it.

Edited December 20, 2009 by Voros

[bschmaranz]

Well money spent on Vizquel on Kotsay to me are wastes. They're no better than guys like Mike McCoy and Ryan Langerhans who are available for league minimum, a handshake and a kind word. I'm not sure Kotsay is even much better than De Aza at this stage of their careers and the Sox already have him. Even if Kotsay and Vizquel are slightly better (extremely doubtful in Kotsay's case), if the two play enough to where "slightly better" has any meaning, the team is in trouble anyway. There's two million saved.

 

Then trading Getz and Fields for a player not any better than Getz but considerably more expensive is another two million gone.

 

Andruw was a decent pickup since he only costs you more than league minimum if he actually does something.

 

Third man out of the bullpen is probably not someone you want to be spending $3 million on, particularly when it means you can't tender a guy who was an effective workhorse out of the pen last year. Putz does have a track record of some success, but he's always had control problems and obviously 2009 wasn't the most encouraging season. I wouldn't have spent that money that way. That's $2.5 million saved.

 

$4 million on Juan Pierre is a considerable overpay in and of itself and Ely wasn't a completely worthless chip either. Pierre is the kind of bench player you spend $1.5 million on, but that wasn't on the table. So that's $3.5 million saved.

 

That's $12 million above league minimum for those slots. Fill guys like McCoy and Langerhans in at two of the slots. The Andruw deal is fine for one of the slots. So far we haven't spent any of that $12 million. $5 million for Nick Johnson or $5.5 if you think the White Sox needed to exceed the Yankees offer. So that's $6.5 million for an outfielder (Marlon Byrd or Rick Ankiel are both good players likely available for less than that) and a middle reliever to fill out the 25 (and a league minimum backup catcher).

 

To me guys like Kotsay and Vizquel and Teahen haven't filled any holes. They aren't any better than options the White Sox already had available to them. Then when it comes to guys like Pierre, you can get a better player for the same kind of money. Finally when it comes to Putz, you're spending a premium to fill a not all that critical position on the team on a guy whose recent history ain't all that great. I don't like any of it.

 

Don't beat around the bush, tell us what you really think?

 

[Voros]

Don't beat around the bush, tell us what you really think?

 

Well he asked "What were better ways to spend the money?" and I gave my answer.

 

Ultimately I do think that when it comes to the bench and the back of the bullpen, you're better off just cobbling the thing together as best as you can and not wasting too many resources on it. Hell, even the Yankees didn't spend much on their bullpen last year past Rivera and they actually have the payroll to spend heavily on it if they wanted.

[Dick Allen]

Yes, it could have...if they had more money to spend. The issue is not how they've spent, but how much they've been able to spend.

The White Sox have had money to spend. Since they have acquired Peavy, they have "spent" $82 million alone on Rios, Teahan and Pierre. I think there is an issue as to how they have spent it.

[southsider2k5]

You were joking, but where would any team be without individual stats?

 

Individual stats are the effect of how well a team plays, not the cause. A better question is where would the individual stats be without any team?

[League]

Then trading Getz and Fields for a player not any better than Getz but considerably more expensive is another two million gone.

Um, what?

No defense, no offense for possible defense and offense? Seems like a trade up to me.

Getz tops out at maybe 3 homers this year. Teahan has the ability to hit 20+ in the Cell.

$4 million on Juan Pierre is a considerable overpay in and of itself and Ely wasn't a completely worthless chip either. Pierre is the kind of bench player you spend $1.5 million on, but that wasn't on the table. So that's $3.5 million saved.

Good thing we're paying him 3 million then. And considering that Coco Crisp is about to land a 5mill deal + an option after two unproductive/injured seasons, I don't see Pierre as the type that would make 1.5m on the open market.

Third man out of the bullpen is probably not someone you want to be spending $3 million on, particularly when it means you can't tender a guy who was an effective workhorse out of the pen last year. Putz does have a track record of some success, but he's always had control problems and obviously 2009 wasn't the most encouraging season. I wouldn't have spent that money that way. That's $2.5 million saved.

Finally when it comes to Putz, you're spending a premium to fill a not all that critical position on the team on a guy whose recent history ain't all that great.

Kay. Putz has had 2 years of his BB/9 in the mid 3's, 2 in the mid 1's, and 1 in the 5's (For a comparison, Thornton has had BB/9 marks of 3.5, 4.15, 2.54 and 2.49 for the Sox). He struggled with walks in 2008. That's it. Unless you want to count his injured Mets campaign, then you can say he struggled with walks for a year and two months. Three million is nothing to pay for this guy. Jenks goes down, we have a proven closer to go in. Jenks stays healthy, we have a potential elite reliever to pair with Thornton and keep him from having to pitch every god damn day to get the ball to Bobby. Not to mention a good year out of the guy probably lands him as a type B free agent and gets us another draft pick.

 

Seriously, all this talk of a wasted offseason is ridiculous. If you guys are fine seeing scrubs like Jayson Nix and DeWayne Wise play games twice a week, then fine. But I'm not, upgrading the bench was a priority considering that these players do in fact play for this team and will be, in some way, responsible for it winning or losing. The bullpen was pretty horrid last year, and adding another power arm to take over the 7th inning has allowed us to shorten games to 6 innings on a good night. We NEVER had that luxury last year, Dotel was bipolar on the mound and Thornton himself was overworked and had a tough stretch.

 

You are all acting like KW went and threw the money down the street, he added established veterans to the team and a guy who can add a different perspective to the line-up. For years this f***ing team's fans were going nuts about "OLD AND SLOW!!" and as soon as we get some guys who can run, people start whining about wasted money. We didn't get Matsui or Nick Johnson, boo f***ing hoo. It's not like KW is done and is actually going to give Ozzie that rotating DH BS, and if he does, I'll jump right on board with you guys because THAT would be completely unacceptable. It's mid December and we have people chastising one of the most unpredictable GM's in the game for a boring offseason, f***ing ridiculous.

Edited December 20, 2009 by League

[ThunderBolt]

The Sox got hosed and the Dodgers made out like bandits, clearing $8M of a bad deal off the books, which is more than enough to fill the 4th OF spot with a capable veteran and still have lots left over to address other needs, and in making this deal the Dodgers *also* picked up a couple potentially useful players in Link and especially Ely.

Jon Link is a fungible asset. Ely is a promising kid with no stuff, but a good pitchers mentality. Neither of these players are that big of a deal to lose. We filled a need, and made the other team play a large percentage of a huge salary. Even if Pierre isn't the ideal option (and he really isn't) we won this trade.

[Kyyle23]

Jon Link is a fungible asset. Ely is a promising kid with no stuff, but a good pitchers mentality. Neither of these players are that big of a deal to lose. We filled a need, and made the other team play a large percentage of a huge salary. Even if Pierre isn't the ideal option (and he really isn't) we won this trade.

 

So he likes portabella mushrooms?