White Sox acquire Juan Pierre

[ThunderBolt]

It is a term used in commodities trading all of the time.

Damn, i thought i started a fad.

[Ranger]

If they just owed him the $9.7 million or whatever it is for 2010, he's worth the gamble, but considering how they seem to always be up against a wall with their budget and you really can't count on an attendance spike, especially in this economy, $5 years, $60 million is a crazy committment. He obviously has the tools to live up to the contract, and perhaps even make it look like a bargain, but he also seems to be a threat to be a poster boy for people who just deteriorate after they get the money.

 

Sure it's a risk to take on the contract, just as it is a risk to give any player a multi-year deal. There's always a chance that player doesn't live up to the money. But should the economics of the game continue to expand the way they have over the years, his $12.5 million dollar salary in 2014 will be considerably less than he's worth if he maintains any sort of level of play according to his ability. That $12.5 million 5 years from now is still considerably less than the $18 million Hunter gets currently.

 

The 2008 attendance was also poor, even though they made the playoffs, because they were mediocre most of the year, and backed into the playoffs.

 

Plus, it just takes a while for people to really start committing to the park, anyway.

 

I'm kind of digging out this post from awhile back Ranger, but I felt like some of your points weren't completely addressed.

 

 

 

Not all holes are created equal, Ranger. I don't exactly agree with all of his points, but the holes on the bench are nowhere near as important as the holes in the everyday lineup, especially in the AL. Whether the money from the players they acquired for the bench could have been used to fill a bigger hole such as our DH or LF/RF remains to be seen, but I would rather have a good everyday lineup and an unknown bench than a meh everyday lineup and a good bench. It's not that I even dislike the signings at face value either. If we had already set up a good everyday lineup, I would be happy with these veteran signings for the bench, but as I believe KHP said elsewhere, it seems like the Sox are going about things backwards.

 

 

 

I don't think it's a good idea to presume exactly how he would react. Some people would definitely be freaking out over it, but how do you know for sure this poster would be angry with such a scenario?

 

 

 

The last four years Juan Pierre has posted an OPS of .703. Mark Kotsay, who just happens to be making $1.5 million, has put up the paltry OPS of .700. Kotsay actually has the superior OPS when you take into account the park factors (84 OPS+ versus 83 for Pierre). I realize OPS isn't an end all be all statistic, but it seems to point out that Pierre making $1.5 million can and probably should happen on the planet we know as Earth. Let's not also forget that these numbers include the couple months that Pierre played way over his head, at least for recent history.

 

The problem is that this team simply was not good last year. These acquisitions like Teahen, Pierre, and the guys we signed for the bench are the kind of acquisition that you make to round out a roster, not play a vital role in its success. I believe in a previous post I made to you I outlined all the various question marks this team has, and we haven't added anything in the form of a certain bat to look to that will make it seem like this team has at least improved going forward. We have lost a lot of production from Thome, first half Dye, and even Podsednik who even though he probably won't repeat his numbers again this year, did put up decent numbers last year. I believe that Kenny knows this as well as we do, and that's why we are hearing (or at least were) that he was looking into acquiring a bat. If we say signed Jim Thome and called it an offseason, the team as constructed could definitely make some noise even deep into the playoffs, but you are putting a lot of hope into the fact that all these underachieving players can turn it around, which some people around here are taking for granted.

 

 

 

Mark Kotsay doesn't have the same tools that Juan Pierre does. They don't play the same positions, they wouldn't bat in the same spot in the order, and they don't have the same skillsets. You can argue whether you think Pierre is all that good or not, and that's fair, but he's capable of being an everyday player (Pierre didn't miss a game for 5 straight years) and is capable of being an average leadoff hitter which is much tougher to find than utility IF/OF types. And for a guy who will play every day, the Sox are only paying him $1.5 mil more than they're paying Kotsay for his services next year.

 

These are pretty good acquisitions given the budget contraints. You get the players you can with the money you have. If you blow all of it on one guy, and leaving nothing to fill the rest, that one guy won't make up for what you're missing.

 

Not all holes are created equal, but when you add all those holes together, they become one big cavern.

 

 

Agreed on most counts, Gatnom.

 

I think there is room for reasonable minds to disagree here, and therefore, telling someone they don't understand, or that they wouldn't make a good GM, or how they would have reacted had things been done differently is going a bit far.

 

I hope things work out for the best. Maybe Andruw Jones will turn things around and end up being the bat we are all pining for right now. Maybe Pierre and Teahan have a bit of a renaissance and turn into vital everyday players. Maybe none of this matters because our pitching staff will carry the team all year.

 

But as of right now, there is definitely room for debate that a different approach could have been taken to accomplish more than the moves that were made will.

 

And hey, that's why we're all here to do - to debate the offseason moves - so let's keep it up and enjoy ourselves, because the Bears sure do suck.

 

 

Shack, I use phrases like that for people that are absolutely confident in themselves that they have better answers than the general manager. Sometimes people don't understand and not all ideas are good ones. And if anybody is able to, with any real-world certainty, provide a different plan with real names and real salaries to fill ALL of the holes the team needed to be filled and within the budget, I'd be happy to listen.

 

I'm not arguing these are exciting moves, but given what they have to work with, I think they've done about as well as can be done so far without going over budget.

[iamshack]

Shack, I use phrases like that for people that are absolutely confident in themselves that they have better answers than the general manager. Sometimes people don't understand and not all ideas are good ones. And if anybody is able to, with any real-world certainty, provide a different plan with real names and real salaries to fill ALL of the holes the team needed to be filled and within the budget, I'd be happy to listen.

 

I'm not arguing these are exciting moves, but given what they have to work with, I think they've done about as well as can be done so far without going over budget.

 

Mr. Rongey, I am actually siding with you on this one, I like the moves, I think I understand them, and I think they'll work out for the best. I was not a fan of signing Matsui or Johnson.

 

That being the case, I think guys like Kalapse, Voros, OzzieBall and Gatnom have made some great points that we overspent on a few of these guys, not necessarily when viewed individually, but when viewed on the whole. The best point, in my opinion, is whether the impact a full-time player like Matsui might be bigger than that of a part-time player like Kotsay or Vizquel, simply because of the number of opportunities.

 

Voros even went so far as to suggest other players (despite the fact that I have never heard of many of them), and he went through and showed cost savings, etc., etc. So because the guy is confident in his point of view, it's fair to be condescending towards him and then suggest what his reaction would have been in some alternative course of events?

 

Now I understand there are people out there that just complain for the sake of complaining. But you asked Voros to bring it, and he did bring it, rather intelligently and respectfully, in my opinion, and you respond by telling him he would not be a good GM and he doesn't understand how the economics work? What makes you more qualified than he is? What makes any of us more qualified than he is, when not one of us have ever even sniffed a GM job? At the end of the day, we're all just a bunch of guys debating the merits of the offseason, and I think he did it as intelligently as anyone in the thread, if not more.

 

Believe me, I'm not saying we all shouldn't set the loudmouths and blowhards straight, and some people are just so far off their rocker that they deserve to be treated a bit more harshly than others, but simply because someone disagrees with my point of view, or your point of view, does not make them wrong. Neither does it mean they would not make a good GM or mean they don't understand. It means they happen to disagree with us on a point which it has been made fairly clear that reasonable minds may disagree about.

 

Edited December 21, 2009 by iamshack

[southsider2k5]

If they just owed him the $9.7 million or whatever it is for 2010, he's worth the gamble, but considering how they seem to always be up against a wall with their budget and you really can't count on an attendance spike, especially in this economy, $5 years, $60 million is a crazy committment. He obviously has the tools to live up to the contract, and perhaps even make it look like a bargain, but he also seems to be a threat to be a poster boy for people who just deteriorate after they get the money.

 

So they are crazy if they spend, and cheap if they don't. Got it.

[iamshack]

So they are crazy if they spend, and cheap if they don't. Got it.

Duh.

[gatnom]

Mark Kotsay doesn't have the same tools that Juan Pierre does. They don't play the same positions, they wouldn't bat in the same spot in the order, and they don't have the same skillsets. You can argue whether you think Pierre is all that good or not, and that's fair, but he's capable of being an everyday player (Pierre didn't miss a game for 5 straight years) and is capable of being an average leadoff hitter which is much tougher to find than utility IF/OF types. And for a guy who will play every day, the Sox are only paying him $1.5 mil more than they're paying Kotsay for his services next year.

 

Mark Kotsay can play LF/RF and 1B; Juan Pierre can play LF. I'd bring up stats to compare fielding ability, but Mark Kotsay has only played 34 innings in LF. They also have no control over where they are put in the lineup, so that really isn't a reason he should be getting paid more than Mark Kotsay. He should be batting ninth, not first because if the last four years have shown anything about Juan Pierre it's that he is a below average leadoff man. You could probably make a case that $1.5 million is worth the stolen bases he will provide and the ability to play every day but what about the additional $5 million we are paying him next year? At the end of the day Juan Pierre is what he is, and that is a below average leadoff man. Is that what you want to pay $8 million over two years for?

 

These are pretty good acquisitions given the budget contraints. You get the players you can with the money you have. If you blow all of it on one guy, and leaving nothing to fill the rest, that one guy won't make up for what you're missing.

 

That's what the unknowns are for. These acquisitions may be good and they may be bad, and they may even be bad if the said players perform better than what was expected of them. Neither you nor I know exactly who was available and for what price, but if the aforementioned question marks fail to get back to their better days it won't matter whether or not Omar Vizquel is getting paid to do what our coaches are being paid to be able to do. Kenny is definitely not finished, so it's hard to argue definitively against your points. Let's hope he has something good up his sleeve.

 

Not all holes are created equal, but when you add all those holes together, they become one big cavern.

 

This cavern you speak of could be filled with a boulder and a few pebbles as well.

 

Shack, I use phrases like that for people that are absolutely confident in themselves that they have better answers than the general manager. Sometimes people don't understand and not all ideas are good ones. And if anybody is able to, with any real-world certainty, provide a different plan with real names and real salaries to fill ALL of the holes the team needed to be filled and within the budget, I'd be happy to listen.

 

I'm not arguing these are exciting moves, but given what they have to work with, I think they've done about as well as can be done so far without going over budget.

 

Unless you have some sort of inside info, I'm not sure why you are exempt from this "my answers are better than your answers" thing. I mentioned earlier that it's impossible for us to know exactly who was available and for what price, barring your potential inside information thing of course. There is no possibility of "real-world certainty" for somebody who is completely out of the loop in Kenny's office. You have no more proof that they have made the best possible moves than I have that they haven't. Why is it that your opinion is that much better than anybody else's? If you know with "real-world certainty" that these are the best moves, I will gladly concede the point.

 

[Voros]

Okay here's my theoretical 25 man roster (again I was asked):

 

C - Pierzynski

C - Erik Kratz (journeyman minor leaguer with a good glove and decent bat - league min)

1B - Konerko/Nick Johnson

2B - Getz/Nix platoon

SS - Ramirez/Beckham

3B - Beckham/Ramirez

LF - Quentin

CF - Rick Ankiel/Rios (Ankiel at about a WAG of around $3 mil/yr)

RF - Rios/Ankiel

DH - Nick Johnson/Konerko (Johnson at about $6 mil/yr)

IF - Nix/Getz

IF - Mike McCoy (the Rockies waived him and the Jays claimed him before the White Sox turn, but you could have gotten him before then, league min)

OF - Ryan Langerhans (non-tendered by the Mariners on the 12th and then re-signed a week later. Defensive specialist, league minimum or close to it)

SP1 - Peavy

SP2 - Danks

SP3 - Buerhle

SP4 - Floyd

SP5 - Garcia/Hudson/Torres

RP - Jenks

RP - Thornton

RP - Linebrink

RP - Pena

RP - Torres/Garcia (if Hudson's not starting I'd prefer him in AAA)

RP - R.J. Swindle (minor league lefty killer currently on an NRI for the Rays, league min)

RP - Chris Bootcheck or a guy like him (have a sort of open competition with guys like this in ST and see who looks the best. all league min)

 

And I'm under the current amount spent. So if I see a reliever I really like for under $2 million, I can pounce. There's other guys you could go after like Andruw or Gabe Gross who would be useful additions to the team and wouldn't cost much. Freddy Dolsi wasn't a terrible pickup as he's a groundball specialist and they can be useful out of the pen, though I think he's a little hittable.

 

I think this team is better than the current one and doesn't cost any more. I don't think it's a great team, but then that has a lot to do with a poor minor league system and some questionable existing long term big money contracts. The biggest risks (other than maybe Ankiel) are in spots where a flop doesn't really hurt you too bad and you can change courses pretty quickly. A guy like Swindle, despite his clear weaknesses, he throws strikes and lefties just don't seem to hit him at all and therefore should be more than adequate as a back of the pen platoon specialist. To me, little pickups like that are how you put together a bench: cheap with a little bit of potential should things break your way.

[Kyyle23]

Okay here's my theoretical 25 man roster (again I was asked):

 

C - Pierzynski

C - Erik Kratz (journeyman minor leaguer with a good glove and decent bat - league min)

1B - Konerko/Nick Johnson

2B - Getz/Nix platoon

SS - Ramirez/Beckham

3B - Beckham/Ramirez

LF - Quentin

CF - Rick Ankiel/Rios (Ankiel at about a WAG of around $3 mil/yr)

RF - Rios/Ankiel

DH - Nick Johnson/Konerko (Johnson at about $6 mil/yr)

IF - Nix/Getz

IF - Mike McCoy (the Rockies waived him and the Jays claimed him before the White Sox turn, but you could have gotten him before then, league min)

OF - Ryan Langerhans (non-tendered by the Mariners on the 12th and then re-signed a week later. Defensive specialist, league minimum or close to it)

SP1 - Peavy

SP2 - Danks

SP3 - Buerhle

SP4 - Floyd

SP5 - Garcia/Hudson/Torres

RP - Jenks

RP - Thornton

RP - Linebrink

RP - Pena

RP - Torres/Garcia (if Hudson's not starting I'd prefer him in AAA)

RP - R.J. Swindle (minor league lefty killer currently on an NRI for the Rays, league min)

RP - Chris Bootcheck or a guy like him (have a sort of open competition with guys like this in ST and see who looks the best. all league min)

 

And I'm under the current amount spent. So if I see a reliever I really like for under $2 million, I can pounce. There's other guys you could go after like Andruw or Gabe Gross who would be useful additions to the team and wouldn't cost much. Freddy Dolsi wasn't a terrible pickup as he's a groundball specialist and they can be useful out of the pen, though I think he's a little hittable.

 

I think this team is better than the current one and doesn't cost any more. I don't think it's a great team, but then that has a lot to do with a poor minor league system and some questionable existing long term big money contracts. The biggest risks (other than maybe Ankiel) are in spots where a flop doesn't really hurt you too bad and you can change courses pretty quickly. A guy like Swindle, despite his clear weaknesses, he throws strikes and lefties just don't seem to hit him at all and therefore should be more than adequate as a back of the pen platoon specialist. To me, little pickups like that are how you put together a bench: cheap with a little bit of potential should things break your way.

 

 

I see a big problem with your 3B/SS/bench tandem. If (god forbid) Beckham goes down, you are screwed at 3rd, because Ramirez is not sliding over to 3rd to back up Beckham like you have it drawn up, And Nix is not backing him up either as he showed us last year. In the current set up should Teahen go down Beckham can move to 3rd and Nix/Vizquel could cover 2nd, if Ramirez goes down Vizquel could cover for him.

 

A bunch of those no names doesnt necessarily make this team better because they saved money. Bootcheck, Kratz, Langerhans and Ankiel? No thanks

[caulfield12]

Okay here's my theoretical 25 man roster (again I was asked):

 

C - Pierzynski

C - Erik Kratz (journeyman minor leaguer with a good glove and decent bat - league min)

1B - Konerko/Nick Johnson

2B - Getz/Nix platoon

SS - Ramirez/Beckham

3B - Beckham/Ramirez

LF - Quentin

CF - Rick Ankiel/Rios (Ankiel at about a WAG of around $3 mil/yr)

RF - Rios/Ankiel

DH - Nick Johnson/Konerko (Johnson at about $6 mil/yr)

IF - Nix/Getz

IF - Mike McCoy (the Rockies waived him and the Jays claimed him before the White Sox turn, but you could have gotten him before then, league min)

OF - Ryan Langerhans (non-tendered by the Mariners on the 12th and then re-signed a week later. Defensive specialist, league minimum or close to it)

SP1 - Peavy

SP2 - Danks

SP3 - Buerhle

SP4 - Floyd

SP5 - Garcia/Hudson/Torres

RP - Jenks

RP - Thornton

RP - Linebrink

RP - Pena

RP - Torres/Garcia (if Hudson's not starting I'd prefer him in AAA)

RP - R.J. Swindle (minor league lefty killer currently on an NRI for the Rays, league min)

RP - Chris Bootcheck or a guy like him (have a sort of open competition with guys like this in ST and see who looks the best. all league min)

 

And I'm under the current amount spent. So if I see a reliever I really like for under $2 million, I can pounce. There's other guys you could go after like Andruw or Gabe Gross who would be useful additions to the team and wouldn't cost much. Freddy Dolsi wasn't a terrible pickup as he's a groundball specialist and they can be useful out of the pen, though I think he's a little hittable.

 

I think this team is better than the current one and doesn't cost any more. I don't think it's a great team, but then that has a lot to do with a poor minor league system and some questionable existing long term big money contracts. The biggest risks (other than maybe Ankiel) are in spots where a flop doesn't really hurt you too bad and you can change courses pretty quickly. A guy like Swindle, despite his clear weaknesses, he throws strikes and lefties just don't seem to hit him at all and therefore should be more than adequate as a back of the pen platoon specialist. To me, little pickups like that are how you put together a bench: cheap with a little bit of potential should things break your way.

 

 

Didn't we already do this coming into a prior year when we auditioned multiple left-handed relievers as well and traded the best of them in Javier Lopez to the Red Sox? It certainly was what happened coming into 2009.

 

Kratz=Corky Miller, McCoy and Langerhans would represent the likes of Lillibridge/Anderson/Owens/Wise/Fields...

 

Essentially, it's all "roster filler" and you can dress it up however you want to, the only big differences are Rick Ankiel and Nick Johnson. Now if you're KW, do I think it would have been better in retrospect to have spent the money on Ankiel/Johnson instead of claiming Rios? Undoubtedly...but he has to live with that decision.

 

You're still left with a ton of question marks relying on Johnson and especially Ankiel....You're also glossing over the fact that Ozzie's comfort level as manager with veterans is considerably higher, instead of KW adding multiple question marks throughout the roster (as KW did heading into 09), at least he (Ozzie) feels more comfortable and knows exactly what he has with Pierre, Jones, Vizquel and Kotsay. Ozzie really really struggled managing that group (Miller/Lillibridge/Wise/Anderson/Wise/Fields/Nix) the first 2-3 months of the season. It's apparent KW wanted to address that issue as quickly as possible so it wouldn't recur in 2010. Was/is it building the roster backwards? We'll just have to wait and see. It's definitely a much different approach than he's taken in the past with setting up the roster.

 

There's absolutely no reason that Bootcheck or Swindle (if you told me it was Greg Swindell in his prime I would have been more optimistic instead of feeling "swindled" like Dick Allen would going into the season with your roster) will do any better than the likes of Freddie Dolsi. KW has tried every approach in the book to the bullpen, from overspending on middle relievers and set-up guys to having open tryouts of other teams' castaways to taking fliers on Jenks and Thornton when many had already written them off.

 

Still, it feels like our hope is to hang within hailing distance of Minnesota and then make another set of mid-season roster adjustments.

Edited December 21, 2009 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

So they are crazy if they spend, and cheap if they don't. Got it.

Yeah that's exactly what I wrote. Get the chip off your shoulder man, and leave me alone. Alex Rios for 5 years is crazy especially if you cry you don't have any money. The other day I was cleaning up some things and came across a 2007 media guide. Of the 56 players the White Sox had in major league camp, 7 are still with the team. 5 years is a long time. Rios was given away. For nothing. Take him. The Sox did, so apparently they have more money than they told you they have, because don't forget, this was after they picked up Peavy.

 

As to cheap, I have only called them cheap at the beginning of 2009. I said they were sitting on money, and all evidence points to me being correct. There is nothing to suggest Jerry Reinsdorf likes to go deep into the red for waiver claims.

[Dick Allen]

Duh.

The tag team mods. If I bother you guys so much with logic, just ban me.

[beck72]

Mark Kotsay can play LF/RF and 1B; Juan Pierre can play LF. I'd bring up stats to compare fielding ability, but Mark Kotsay has only played 34 innings in LF. They also have no control over where they are put in the lineup, so that really isn't a reason he should be getting paid more than Mark Kotsay. He should be batting ninth, not first because if the last four years have shown anything about Juan Pierre it's that he is a below average leadoff man. You could probably make a case that $1.5 million is worth the stolen bases he will provide and the ability to play every day but what about the additional $5 million we are paying him next year? At the end of the day Juan Pierre is what he is, and that is a below average leadoff man. Is that what you want to pay $8 million over two years for?

 

 

 

That's what the unknowns are for. These acquisitions may be good and they may be bad, and they may even be bad if the said players perform better than what was expected of them. Neither you nor I know exactly who was available and for what price, but if the aforementioned question marks fail to get back to their better days it won't matter whether or not Omar Vizquel is getting paid to do what our coaches are being paid to be able to do. Kenny is definitely not finished, so it's hard to argue definitively against your points. Let's hope he has something good up his sleeve.

 

 

 

This cavern you speak of could be filled with a boulder and a few pebbles as well.

 

 

 

Unless you have some sort of inside info, I'm not sure why you are exempt from this "my answers are better than your answers" thing. I mentioned earlier that it's impossible for us to know exactly who was available and for what price, barring your potential inside information thing of course. There is no possibility of "real-world certainty" for somebody who is completely out of the loop in Kenny's office. You have no more proof that they have made the best possible moves than I have that they haven't. Why is it that your opinion is that much better than anybody else's? If you know with "real-world certainty" that these are the best moves, I will gladly concede the point.

Looking at what free agents have signed for this offseason, http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/features/fre...amp;season=2009

a case can be made that they are good additions based on what the market is paying.

*The sox needed a leadoff hitter and what were some contracts players signed--Figgins and his 4 yr, $36 mill deal; the A's are supposedly close to signing Coco Crisp to a $5 mill. deal; Polanco's 3 yr $18 mill deal. Pierre's $3.5 mill. deal this year doesn't look so bad given the context of filling the Sox need.

*Bullpen help: Putz getting a $3 mill base salary looks better than a Lyon's 3 yr, $15 mill deal or LaTroy hawkins deal or Rafael Soriano's $7 + mill. deal

*Bench: Vizquel [$1.375 mill.] looks better than Alex Cora [$2 mill], Alex Gonzalex or John McDonald. Andruw Jones is cheaper than Langerhans and Jason Michaels.

*Infield: I'm not a huge fan of Teahen. But is his deal much worse than Pedro Feliz and his $4.5 mill salary? Not IMO. Or adding Scutaro for 2b or SS and his $6 + mill. deal a yr + losing a draft pick?

 

Personally, I'm content with what the sox have done with the additions of Peavy and Rios during last season and this offseason with re-signing Kotsay, adding Teahen, Vizquel, Jones, Putz and Pierre. I'd like the sox to make a bigger move via the trade front--esp. as I believe the sox need a young LH middle of the order bat and a long term solution to the top of the order. But who knows what is out there. And I don't want to trade key pieces of the sox thin farm system while the sox have so little payroll flexibility [esp. Konerko and Linebrink]. With another year of the farm system improving, the sox may be better able to swing a larger deal next offseason.

 

Rios is a big risk, as the salary contraints could hamstring the sox for years. Yet is Rios any more of a long term risk than Jason Bay or Matt Holliday will be when they sign their huge deals? Will Bay or Holliday have any more incentive to work harder and improve their games after getting their big pay days, than Rios, a former All-star who has been embarrased by knowing that no team wanted him, that other teams, fans and players think he's washed up at age 28? Rios has to show some pride and heart this year. I don't know if he will. But the sox

 

I do like the Sox style of getting players who have been successful for most of their pro careers [including the minors], often at a reduced cost salary wise to due injury/ poor recent performance, and expecting them to perform like they have in the past and improve on their previous season rather than overpaying on the free agent market. [Pods and Dye in 05; Dotel; Thome, Quentin-his work in the minors]. There are some misses--Swisher a big one. Yet even vets need an incentive to put in that extra work to get in the best shape, refine their games, and improve on their previous year-an incentive that goes beyond dollars and cents.

Edited December 21, 2009 by beck72

[ThunderBolt]

I see a big problem with your 3B/SS/bench tandem. If (god forbid) Beckham goes down, you are screwed at 3rd, because Ramirez is not sliding over to 3rd to back up Beckham like you have it drawn up, And Nix is not backing him up either as he showed us last year.

Nix actually looked pretty competent at 3b. He was a disaster at SS, but he can play multiple positions. He shouldn't, but he can.

[caulfield12]

The tag team mods. If I bother you guys so much with logic, just ban me.

 

 

It's Christmas season, enjoy your life and family...it's better to just disappear for awhile and return when you feel like calmly discussing White Sox baseball again. Go see Avatar, or go shopping.

 

Getting upset isn't worth it, trust me. Been there, done that. We all love the White Sox, everyone feels passionately about OUR team and their own beliefs, it's normal that we don't see eye to eye all the time with all posters...but you would miss this site. No matter where I am living or what I am doing in life, I always come back to White Sox baseball in the end, it's kind of like an addiction/religion that even seasons like 2007 and 2009 can't come close to extinguishing.

 

Most of Generation X remembers what the late 70's and 80's were like at Old Comiskey Park. We survived for so long, and now we'll always have 2005 and that parade to remember, even if some families went a generation or two in their lifetimes without a Sox playoff appearance.

 

 

[Kyyle23]

Nix actually looked pretty competent at 3b. He was a disaster at SS, but he can play multiple positions. He shouldn't, but he can.

 

I disagree, the only place I saw Nix look competent was 2B. And the point remains, in that setup that he provides, if one domino falls, every other position is covered by a far inferior defender. Ozzie has a lot of options in his current setup and the dropoff isnt nearly as steep

[southsider2k5]

Yeah that's exactly what I wrote. Get the chip off your shoulder man, and leave me alone. Alex Rios for 5 years is crazy especially if you cry you don't have any money. The other day I was cleaning up some things and came across a 2007 media guide. Of the 56 players the White Sox had in major league camp, 7 are still with the team. 5 years is a long time. Rios was given away. For nothing. Take him. The Sox did, so apparently they have more money than they told you they have, because don't forget, this was after they picked up Peavy.

 

As to cheap, I have only called them cheap at the beginning of 2009. I said they were sitting on money, and all evidence points to me being correct. There is nothing to suggest Jerry Reinsdorf likes to go deep into the red for waiver claims.

 

 

The tag team mods. If I bother you guys so much with logic, just ban me.

 

Now why is it that you love to challenge people, but it bothers you to be challenged so much? If it bothers you so much, you are probably in the wrong place. Besides, you are the one trying to slam the organization for things you criticize them for not doing at other times.

[Eminor3rd]

I kind of wish we would have tried to sign Polanco instead of getting Teahen, or even instead of getting Juan Pierre.

[Kyyle23]

I kind of wish we would have tried to sign Polanco instead of getting Teahen, or even instead of getting Juan Pierre.

 

did you see the ridiculous contract that Polanco got from the Phillies? They can have him for that money. Sayonara

[Ranger]

Mr. Rongey, I am actually siding with you on this one, I like the moves, I think I understand them, and I think they'll work out for the best. I was not a fan of signing Matsui or Johnson.

 

That being the case, I think guys like Kalapse, Voros, OzzieBall and Gatnom have made some great points that we overspent on a few of these guys, not necessarily when viewed individually, but when viewed on the whole. The best point, in my opinion, is whether the impact a full-time player like Matsui might be bigger than that of a part-time player like Kotsay or Vizquel, simply because of the number of opportunities.

 

Voros even went so far as to suggest other players (despite the fact that I have never heard of many of them), and he went through and showed cost savings, etc., etc. So because the guy is confident in his point of view, it's fair to be condescending towards him and then suggest what his reaction would have been in some alternative course of events?

 

Now I understand there are people out there that just complain for the sake of complaining. But you asked Voros to bring it, and he did bring it, rather intelligently and respectfully, in my opinion, and you respond by telling him he would not be a good GM and he doesn't understand how the economics work? What makes you more qualified than he is? What makes any of us more qualified than he is, when not one of us have ever even sniffed a GM job? At the end of the day, we're all just a bunch of guys debating the merits of the offseason, and I think he did it as intelligently as anyone in the thread, if not more.

 

Believe me, I'm not saying we all shouldn't set the loudmouths and blowhards straight, and some people are just so far off their rocker that they deserve to be treated a bit more harshly than others, but simply because someone disagrees with my point of view, or your point of view, does not make them wrong. Neither does it mean they would not make a good GM or mean they don't understand. It means they happen to disagree with us on a point which it has been made fairly clear that reasonable minds may disagree about.

 

 

Well let's go ahead and get to the "bringin' it" you speak of:

 

Okay here's my theoretical 25 man roster (again I was asked):

 

C - Pierzynski

C - Erik Kratz (journeyman minor leaguer with a good glove and decent bat - league min)

1B - Konerko/Nick Johnson

2B - Getz/Nix platoon

SS - Ramirez/Beckham

3B - Beckham/Ramirez

LF - Quentin

CF - Rick Ankiel/Rios (Ankiel at about a WAG of around $3 mil/yr)

RF - Rios/Ankiel

DH - Nick Johnson/Konerko (Johnson at about $6 mil/yr)

IF - Nix/Getz

IF - Mike McCoy (the Rockies waived him and the Jays claimed him before the White Sox turn, but you could have gotten him before then, league min)

OF - Ryan Langerhans (non-tendered by the Mariners on the 12th and then re-signed a week later. Defensive specialist, league minimum or close to it)

SP1 - Peavy

SP2 - Danks

SP3 - Buerhle

SP4 - Floyd

SP5 - Garcia/Hudson/Torres

RP - Jenks

RP - Thornton

RP - Linebrink

RP - Pena

RP - Torres/Garcia (if Hudson's not starting I'd prefer him in AAA)

RP - R.J. Swindle (minor league lefty killer currently on an NRI for the Rays, league min)

RP - Chris Bootcheck or a guy like him (have a sort of open competition with guys like this in ST and see who looks the best. all league min)

 

And I'm under the current amount spent. So if I see a reliever I really like for under $2 million, I can pounce. There's other guys you could go after like Andruw or Gabe Gross who would be useful additions to the team and wouldn't cost much. Freddy Dolsi wasn't a terrible pickup as he's a groundball specialist and they can be useful out of the pen, though I think he's a little hittable.

 

I think this team is better than the current one and doesn't cost any more. I don't think it's a great team, but then that has a lot to do with a poor minor league system and some questionable existing long term big money contracts. The biggest risks (other than maybe Ankiel) are in spots where a flop doesn't really hurt you too bad and you can change courses pretty quickly. A guy like Swindle, despite his clear weaknesses, he throws strikes and lefties just don't seem to hit him at all and therefore should be more than adequate as a back of the pen platoon specialist. To me, little pickups like that are how you put together a bench: cheap with a little bit of potential should things break your way.

 

 

First, I'll just start by saying that your real-world scenario already doesn't work when you admit that one of your options couldn't possibly be available to the Sox anyway.

 

I don't understand how you think that signing Nick Johnson and then plugging the rest of the holes with league-minimum salaried players, makes this team better. Rick Ankiel? No. The backups they currently have didn't cost them all that much at all. You're acting like they've spent $20 million on it. The Sox current bench is better than yours and your bullpen is not as good as the one they've got now. . How would you even set that lineup? It's almost like you're just throwing out cheap names to fill spots. I'm sorry, but that team you have listed is just simply not better.

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Still looks to me like an ALC winning team, if we just get one more LH bat with some power. And maybe that even without the added bat. I don't see this team needing major rebuilding as it stands, unless they suddenly have $20M more to work with.

 

And I'm not saying you don't improve the team in existing-filled positions if you can - you still try for those A-Gon type deals if they work. They just aren't likely to work.

 

 

[South Side Fireworks Man]

Still looks to me like an ALC winning team, if we just get one more LH bat with some power. And maybe that even without the added bat. I don't see this team needing major rebuilding as it stands, unless they suddenly have $20M more to work with.

 

And I'm not saying you don't improve the team in existing-filled positions if you can - you still try for those A-Gon type deals if they work. They just aren't likely to work.

I wonder what it would take for the Sox to get Luke Scott? He seems to be the type of guy that would fit into that last hole.

 

I don't have much confidence in Andruw Jones as anything more than strictly a backup. If they're planning on using him as the primary DH or going with a Kotsay/Jones platoon at DH they're not going anywhere.

 

Getting a guy like Luke Scott would allow them to rotate Scott, Quentin and Pierre as DH while all remaining in the starting lineup. This would help keep Pierre's legs fresh and hopefully help keep Quentin healthy.

[Ranger]

I'm pretty sure I've said this before, but I still think the team needs another hitter. And while I like the idea of 9 guys getting just about all of the at-bats with the DH spot rotating from player to player (meaning a group of 2 or 3 players get days off from the field while remaining in the lineup...Podsednik was a HUGE fan of that idea, by the way), if they acquire a guy that is unable to play the field and only DH, that would be better than leaving the team as is.

[NorthSideSox72]

I wonder what it would take for the Sox to get Luke Scott? He seems to be the type of guy that would fit into that last hole.

 

I don't have much confidence in Andruw Jones as anything more than strictly a backup. If they're planning on using him as the primary DH or going with a Kotsay/Jones platoon at DH they're not going anywhere.

 

Getting a guy like Luke Scott would allow them to rotate Scott, Quentin and Pierre as DH while all remaining in the starting lineup. This would help keep Pierre's legs fresh and hopefully help keep Quentin healthy.

I am probably in the minority on this, but, I predict Jones has a big year.

 

Even still, I think the team is much more potent and complete with one more LH power bat.

 

[southsider2k5]

I am probably in the minority on this, but, I predict Jones has a big year.

 

Even still, I think the team is much more potent and complete with one more LH power bat.

 

He is down to a minimum wage contract. It is now or never for the guy.

[Dick Allen]

Now why is it that you love to challenge people, but it bothers you to be challenged so much? If it bothers you so much, you are probably in the wrong place. Besides, you are the one trying to slam the organization for things you criticize them for not doing at other times.

You didn't challenge me. You just came up with some silly comment that didn't even portray my position accurately. Its actually a tactic I have seen you scold others for doing. If you're going to rip me, be accurate about my position.