Sox claim Freddy Dolsi

[Dick Allen]

Is there anything documented on Cooper having his pitchers tune it down a bit? I know its a popular belief, but I've never seen a quote from him about it. I would think if that really is Cooper's philosophy and the White Sox believe in it, it would be something they would preach at every level. Its tough enough breaking into the big leagues, doing so with an entirely different approach than what you are used to doesn't make much sense.

 

Reading BP, they were pretty high on this guy, but thought 2009 was not the year. He does however have some shoulder problems.

Edited December 19, 2009 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

Your insistence on trying to rip me for every post I make is making you not even pay attention to what I write. As I said, I didn't blame Cooper for Contreras' failures, but getting excited because of this notion that Cooper fixes everyone is silly. There have been plenty of guys that haven't exactly panned out.

 

That's because no one has ever actually said Cooper fixes everyone. The argument is dumb, because you are attributing things as fact, which aren't. And honestly, with the same three things that you repeat over and over and over again, I hardly ever respond anymore, because it is fully pointless.

[caulfield12]

Well, Cotts certainly did better when he was throwing harder out of the bullpen than as a starter.

 

MacDougal has been incredibly inconsistent throughout his career, mostly because of strikezone command (or lack thereof). No matter what speed he pitches at (anywhere from 92-98), his pitches seemingly have a ton of movement, which is a large part of the problem. I think they simply told him in the end to aim at the center of the plate and forget about everything else they had tried to teach him...of course, pitching for the Nationals is a lot different than for the White Sox in terms of pressure.

 

Same thing with Aardsma and Masset, to a lesser degree.

 

Aardsma wasn't ready to be a closer for the White Sox (his failures, after pitching like Linebrink's April-June 08 or Cotts/Politte in 05) and his career really went downhill after giving up a walk-bomb to someone on the Tigers, I think it was Monroe or Thames, one of those guys. He was always reputed to have the lowest amount of confidence, and you saw that in the second half last year with the M's again as he was far from consistent.

 

I think Maaset is probably the most interesting case. I'm not sure what happened...it seemed there was confusion about his role and what to do with him, but he was never close to 95-100 for most of his time with the Sox. Of course, we all know that even Joel Zumaya gets lit up at that speed when everyone knows what's coming. But if Nick really was throwing 3-5 MPH harder with the Reds, maybe it was simply that he decided it was better to go with power and give up a little command, because of his lack of movement.

 

Contreras and Garland, to name just a couple, always seemed to have a lot more life and (dead ball effect) at lower speeds, although when Jose was it his best in 05/06, he was consistently at 95-96-97 with every FB, and the increase in velocity probably has something to do with the air/altitude/cold in Colorado. It's not like he did that well there, he was considering a Japanese League team the last I read about him.

 

 

 

 

[witesoxfan]

Aardsma wasn't ready to be a closer for the White Sox (his failures, after pitching like Linebrink's April-June 08 or Cotts/Politte in 05) and his career really went downhill after giving up a walk-bomb to someone on the Tigers, I think it was Monroe or Thames, one of those guys. He was always reputed to have the lowest amount of confidence, and you saw that in the second half last year with the M's again as he was far from consistent.

 

I always thought of Aardsma's career with the Sox unwinding after he threw 4 straight balls to a Twins hitter with the bases loaded in a tie game in the bottom of the 9th or 10th, giving them the game. That is the absolute last recollection I have of Aards in a Sox uniform.

 

And I have thought, even since that point, as losing Aardsma as a mistake.

[caulfield12]

That's because no one has ever actually said Cooper fixes everyone. The argument is dumb, because you are attributing things as fact, which aren't. And honestly, with the same three things that you repeat over and over and over again, I hardly ever respond anymore, because it is fully pointless.

 

 

1) I love Greg Walker.

 

2) JR and KW, boo, boo, boo!!!! White Sox are cheap.

 

Actually, considering many posters (including myself) have been accused of being boring/predictable, I think it's nice that there a few who are always reliable and consistent in "spinning" most White Sox news in a certain way. It gives the site some balance...it would be tremendously boring if we were in agreement or had consensus the majority of the time.

 

Reminds me of past debates over issues like Willy Taveras, Brian Anderson or Nix/Getz...or the now steadily recurring stats/OBP versus 'scouting/eyeballs' which was first highlighted by Moneyball/The Blind Side author Michael Lewis....

 

Reminds me a little of the Copenhagen Summit, maddening at times, but still the "big tent" is far better than the "censorship/my way or the highway/it's our board, so shut up" approach prevalent at other Sox sites.

Edited December 20, 2009 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

I always thought of Aardsma's career with the Sox unwinding after he threw 4 straight balls to a Twins hitter with the bases loaded in a tie game in the bottom of the 9th or 10th, giving them the game. That is the absolute last recollection I have of Aards in a Sox uniform.

 

And I have thought, even since that point, as losing Aardsma as a mistake.

 

 

Well, Aarsdma has definitely been something of an enigma his entire career, just like MacDougal.

 

You never know, Dolsi has a pretty electric arm, and was considered untouchable just 2 years ago. So unpredictable what you're going to get with relievers, but I feel a LITTLE bit better having Pena and Dolsi, that ONE of them can have a breakout/comeback season.

 

The only thing we feel confident in going into 2010 might be Linebrink being pretty good in the first half...because we still have no idea what we're going to get out of Jenks and Putz, and even Thornton has had his moments of occasional struggle with the Sox, usually when he gets behind in the count or becomes too predictable or loses command.

Edited December 20, 2009 by caulfield12

[witesoxfan]

Well, Aarsdma has definitely been something of an enigma his entire career, just like MacDougal.

 

You never know, Dolsi has a pretty electric arm, and was considered untouchable just 2 years ago. So unpredictable what you're going to get with relievers, but I feel a LITTLE bit better having Pena and Dolsi, that ONE of them can have a breakout/comeback season.

 

The only thing we feel confident in might be Linebrink being pretty good in the first half...because we still have no idea what we're going to get out of Jenks and Putz, and even Thornton has had his moments of occasional struggle with the Sox, usually when he gets behind in the count or becomes too predictable.

 

I think there is a general idea out of what to get out of Dolsi, which is high walks and mediocre K rates. He seems to be a 7th/8th reliever who is only in the organization due to depth concerns in regards to middle relief. He's less talented than Sergio Santos, who I think is very likely to make the roster, but more ready and capable than the glut of s***ty AAA relievers the Sox have while also being more apt to learn.

 

I also think suggesting that the Sox don't know what they are going to get out of Jenks is a bit much. The Sox and everyone else knows exactly what they can GET out of Jenks - he was a banged up last season and still had a good year. If he's healthy and pitching like he can, he's a more than applicable closer and is going to be just fine.

 

And in regards to Putz - if he's healthy, he's money. If not, he's garbage. That's simple.

 

I'm slightly concerned about Thornton, but not too worried. He should be good for an ERA in the 3's and an WHIP between 1.2 and 1.3.

[caulfield12]

Well, if Dolsi COULD (Coop will fix him, trademark) develop a secondary pitch, he would be absolutely nasty, not unlike Rodney when he has the change-up/fastball combination going. Now we know that strategy DIDN'T work with the aforementioned list of pitchers like Aardsma, Sisco and Masset, not to mention Aaron Poreda and Matt Thornton.

 

I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that he could get on a roll for at least half a season like Politte did in 2005. I would say (comparing this to the "condition" in which we acquired Cliffie) that I am/was more optimistic hearing about Dolsi coming in that the orginal Politte acquisition when it happened...maybe even more positive than I felt about Hermanson.

 

As far as Jenks goes, he's never really had two legitimately-touted candidated (Putz and Thornton) vying for his job. MacDougal wasn't brought in for that function, neither was Octavio Dotel. There has/had never been more rumors about his being traded or being non-tendered. Contract incentives were placed in the Putz deal specifically as "Option B" to Jenks, AND because they didn't have to improve Thornton's "bargain" contract. MAYBE, just MAYBE, it will be the kick in the seat of the pants that he (BBBJ) really needs to get back on track. We know that he's been capable of really getting it into the upper 90's occasionally, but those adrenaline-pumping moments have been few and far between with the exception of the last two months of the 2008 season.

 

You might take the bet that Jenks would have 30-35 saves (or more) going into this season with a Vegas sports book, but I'm not sure that I would.

 

Still, as has been argued repeatedly, you can't afford to trade him for less than equal value or just cut him loose. The risk is too high that Putz would/will fail and that the bullpen would implode, with all the starting pitching in the world not being enough to carry the offense and shoddy pen.

Edited December 20, 2009 by caulfield12

[Texsox]

Every time I see this thread I think THE Freddy Dolsi and yawn. Not too many years ago, this would have been considered a major Sox move.

[caulfield12]

Well, it never would have happened because Dombrowski wouldn't have traded him to another ALCD rival anyway.

 

Seems the ONLY time that happens is with relievers going from the Royals to the White Sox (names like Sisco, MacDougal, Carrasco, Sisco, H. Ramirez, David Riske, Sullivan, etc., come to mind)...

 

On second thought, seems Riske ended up with Royals after Sox failed to offer him arbitration?

Edited December 20, 2009 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

1) I love Greg Walker.

 

2) JR and KW, boo, boo, boo!!!! White Sox are cheap.

 

Actually, considering many posters (including myself) have been accused of being boring/predictable, I think it's nice that there a few who are always reliable and consistent in "spinning" most White Sox news in a certain way. It gives the site some balance...it would be tremendously boring if we were in agreement or had consensus the majority of the time.

 

Reminds me of past debates over issues like Willy Taveras, Brian Anderson or Nix/Getz...or the now steadily recurring stats/OBP versus 'scouting/eyeballs' which was first highlighted by Moneyball/The Blind Side author Michael Lewis....

 

Reminds me a little of the Copenhagen Summit, maddening at times, but still the "big tent" is far better than the "censorship/my way or the highway/it's our board, so shut up" approach prevalent at other Sox sites.

 

If you're attributing the top 2 things to me, you are a little off. I never have said I love Greg Walker. I just stick up for him and know its not his fault the offense sucks when guys like Wise and Lillibridge lead off, just like nobody called for Cooper's head when MacDougal threw a few more balls back to the screen. I have also always defended JR. It wasn't that long ago many who think he now can do no wrong used to think he can do no right. As for KW, I do find him arrogant, but I also praise some of his move and find others curious. The cheap thing only was because I am a long-time season ticketholder and in 2009 they raised my invoice and lowered payroll and cried they had no money. As it turns out, I happened to be correct as they added Peavy and Rios to the mix before the season ended, although some still said I was way off, they were able to find some money someplace. Like JR forgot he stuffed $6 million above the drop ceiling in his office.

 

If it makes me less of a fan in people's eyes because I'm not excited about Vizquel and Jones and Teahan and now Pierre (I kind of like the Putz move, but then again, I'm not penciling him in as a savior yet, as his ERA the past 2 seasons was higher than Scott Linebrink) so be it. This team was near the bottom in offense in 2009. I don't see upgrades. Pierre is probably better than Pods and I didn't want Pods back, (although if you went back, you will see I praised signing Pods earlier this year), but I don't think Pierre will match what Pods did in 2009. Thome and Dye gone is going to hurt. As bad as Dye was in the second half, he hit over .300 with big power the first half. It leads me to believe he's probably not done, but he should be a DH and he doesn't want to be a DH so he probably wouldn't do too well in that role. Thome provided power with RBI and OBP. Getz provided some speed and did some little things. His steal percentage was terrific. It seems to me the White Sox are relying on a couple of things to make up the bulk of the improvement:

 

1. Alex Rios.

 

There is no doubt he is better than he played for the White Sox, but his OPS has declined 3 straight years, and a lot of scouts say he's been mailing it in. He needs to be the player Toronto thought they were getting when they gave him that contract, not the player he was when all they required was someone taking the contract off their hands to give him up.

 

2. The health of Carlos Quentin

 

I know most of his injuries appear to be flukes and don't seem to be connected to each other other than his sore knee last season which didn't keep him out of the line-up. The fact is this guy has gone down at least 3 seasons in a row. Sometimes players are like this. Ken Griffey Jr.'s injuries weren't all related, yet you knew it was June when you hear he's hurt again. Mike Brown with the Bears, same thing. The one amazing thing about Quentin's injuries have been none have been because of a HBP. Considering how many times he gets hit, and his refusal to wear any armour, you have to figure that its just a matter of time. He probably would have been the MVP in 2008 if he didn't go down. He needs to return to that level. I think if he can stay healthy, its a better bet than Rios living up to his potential.

[Princess Dye]

If Putz comes out electric, and Jenks continues his '09 performance...it will be frustrating to see how the business side will get in the way of them putting Putz in the right role. At least that will be the accusation if the trigger isnt pulled fast enough.

 

I like getting Dolsi if for no other fact that it seems like it's been a few years now where we dont have a stable of possible, ready bullpen arms to go to. As long as Ehren Wasserman was a real possibility for our pen, I knew we didnt have viable relief help on the farm. Last year it seemed like everything viable was on the major league roster, as evidenced by Poreda being up out of necessity.

 

 

Do you guys think the Sox......for trade value concerns... kind of 'managed' Poreda's ERA last year with the infrequent situations he was put in? If so, another reliever should have been up instead of him (if one was around). And also, will it happen again this year in a sense with Tyler Flowers or Hudson...?

Edited December 20, 2009 by Princess Dye

[SouthsideDon48]

I like the Dolsi acquistion. I think he has a lot of potential, and I just realized that he seems to be the "poor man's Arredondo".

[southsider2k5]

I like the Dolsi acquistion. I think he has a lot of potential, and I just realized that he seems to be the "poor man's Arredondo".

 

We got him for nothing, and he is getting paid about minimum wage. There isn't anything not to like about it. If he sucks, we drop him, end of story.

[caulfield12]

If Putz comes out electric, and Jenks continues his '09 performance...it will be frustrating to see how the business side will get in the way of them putting Putz in the right role. At least that will be the accusation if the trigger isnt pulled fast enough.

 

I like getting Dolsi if for no other fact that it seems like it's been a few years now where we dont have a stable of possible, ready bullpen arms to go to. As long as Ehren Wasserman was a real possibility for our pen, I knew we didnt have viable relief help on the farm. Last year it seemed like everything viable was on the major league roster, as evidenced by Poreda being up out of necessity.

 

 

Do you guys think the Sox......for trade value concerns... kind of 'managed' Poreda's ERA last year with the infrequent situations he was put in? If so, another reliever should have been up instead of him (if one was around). And also, will it happen again this year in a sense with Tyler Flowers or Hudson...?

 

Of course, you really have to believe KW knew all along that Poreda was one of the most coveted pieces in our system, especially going into last year. Obviously there were concerns he would never become a starter all along...that he was essentially being marketed to teams around the league as part of a package to get something bigger/better in return. Thank god Clayton Richard became much more than just a LOOGY and pitched so well enough that he could be shipped off along with Poreda to get Peavy in return.

 

If Flowers and Hudson brought back someone like A-Gonzalez, nobody would sweat it TOO much. We'd merely say, well, look how many of KW's prospect trades in the past have turned out busts? Phil Rogers doesn't even have Chris Young to hype anymore, all he can do is bring up Javier Vazquez or the non-return from Swisher (Viciedo-Marquez-Nunez-Betemit) so far.

 

I guess there's always C. Carter and our former future Cliff Floyd from the LH side...because the Cunningham and Sweeney fan groups have quieted down quite a bit, too.

 

 

[chunk23]

Chris Carter has put up some absolutely beastly numbers though. Also Sweeney is looking to be a fine outfielder. Decent bat (good OBP, but still no power) and excellent defensive skills. Pretty much what we're getting with Juan Pierre but cheaper and younger with room for improvement.

[chw42]

If Dolsi stops walking people, he can become a decent reliever.

[simba43]

I like the pick up like some one said earlier he is min salary and if he does good then great if not so what you release him

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Chris Carter has put up some absolutely beastly numbers though. Also Sweeney is looking to be a fine outfielder. Decent bat (good OBP, but still no power) and excellent defensive skills. Pretty much what we're getting with Juan Pierre but cheaper and younger with room for improvement.

Sweeney in the second half last year: .319/.378/.463/.841. He had the same amount of HR as in the first half, but he went from 11 doubles and 1 triple to 20 doubles and 2 triples. Could it be happening? He'll only be 25 in 2010...

 

Gio also showed some flashes last year including a 10 K, no walk performance in his last start of the season.

 

DLS is healthy now too.

[caulfield12]

I think the other problem here in Chicago is that they never envisioned Sweeney as the answer in CF, for whatever reason. And putting him on a corner outfield spot or even 1B didn't seem logical from a power standpoint, either.

 

Playing in that stadium, he'll never put up great offensive numbers, but it seems he's one player the White Sox gave up on too quickly, and if we had his second half numbers in the first half of 2009 out in CF, we would have been in a much better position to compete in the 2nd half, although you could say the same thing about 5-10 players on our roster performing up to their usual standards.

 

If you looked at our roster, would we put Gio over Daniel Hudson in the pecking order? Maybe, but I doubt it. I think most are higher on Hudson because he appears to the be the most durable of the two, although Gio didn't exactly break down as a starting pitcher like Brandon McCarthy, he just hasn't pitched well enough consistently. Just lots of flashes broken up by wildness.

 

As far as DLS, when he puts up a dominating half-season in AA, then I'll start to take notice again.

 

 

[kwolf68]

 

When Gio skips on his wildness pills, he appears to be a great pitcher. I watched him pitch and the ONLY thing holding him back is consistency in tossing strikes. I am guessing brass figured he'd never figure it out and move on; sorta like a running back in the NFL who always fumbles.

 

As Caufield said, Sweeney was being projected as a Corner OF, and Sox brass saw that the power was probably never going to develop to justify that position. However, Oakland put him in center and he's tracking out great there, plus his defense is more than adequate. No, he won't steal you the 30-40 bases we would all love from our CF, but you could do worse.

 

DLS is still a ways off from the majors so I am not really worrying about him at this point.

 

It doesn't look like the Sox are going to REALLY hate this trade when all the chips fall where they may with the spects we sent to Oaktown, but it surely has the potential to be a horrid trade (if Sweeney continues to develop, Gio finally beats the control bug and DLS gets back on the fast track)