Texsox Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Is there anything the government does worse than 30 years ago? Is there anything the government should stay out of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 1 is easy. Regulation. Banks, food supply, labor laws, pretty much anything that if enforced would cost people money it's magically gotten worse at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Kickass Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Comity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonxctf Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Foreign Intelligence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 QUOTE (jasonxctf @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 05:23 PM) Foreign Intelligence Really? It's entirely possible we're better at it, we're just facing a different kind of threat. 30 years ago the KGB and the Israelis appear to have thorougly broken several CIA and FBI agents, for example. Meanwhile, the ability of the government to gather electronic intelligence has likely gone up exponentially, because there's so much more electronic intelligence now and it all runs through our wires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Governing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonxctf Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 11:24 PM) Really? It's entirely possible we're better at it, we're just facing a different kind of threat. 30 years ago the KGB and the Israelis appear to have thorougly broken several CIA and FBI agents, for example. Meanwhile, the ability of the government to gather electronic intelligence has likely gone up exponentially, because there's so much more electronic intelligence now and it all runs through our wires. IRAQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 QUOTE (jasonxctf @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 07:27 PM) IRAQ There's only 1 sense in which that was a failure of intelligence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted December 22, 2009 Author Share Posted December 22, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 07:44 PM) There's only 1 sense in which that was a failure of intelligence... There is also a case that the intelligence was correct, but key people ignore or mislead people about what it said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I mean, I really don't think intelligence counts. Is this at a federal level? Actually, I think I may exempt myself...Anything I say is just based off too limited experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 QUOTE (Tex @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 09:30 PM) There is also a case that the intelligence was correct, but key people ignore or mislead people about what it said. My specific goal there was to call the people at the top making the decisions unintelligent. Not to say anything about the intelligence gathering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 QUOTE (jasonxctf @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 07:27 PM) IRAQ Failure on the part of policymakers, not the intelligence professionals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 QUOTE (lostfan @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 09:28 AM) Failure on the part of policymakers, not the intelligence professionals Sort of. The whole Curveball thing was a pretty big failure across the board, including at CIA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 10:48 AM) Sort of. The whole Curveball thing was a pretty big failure across the board, including at CIA. Yeah, but even that was done out of a desire to tell policymakers (i.e. Cheney) what they want to hear - which is a management/bureaucratic failure, not a failure because we lacked some capability or didn't connect the dots when we should have. Not sure how well I explained that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 QUOTE (lostfan @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 10:50 AM) Yeah, but even that was done out of a desire to tell policymakers (i.e. Cheney) what they want to hear - which is a management/bureaucratic failure, not a failure because we lacked some capability or didn't connect the dots when we should have. Not sure how well I explained that Makes perfect sense to me, but I long ago agreed with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 QUOTE (lostfan @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 09:50 AM) Yeah, but even that was done out of a desire to tell policymakers (i.e. Cheney) what they want to hear - which is a management/bureaucratic failure, not a failure because we lacked some capability or didn't connect the dots when we should have. Not sure how well I explained that That's still an intelligence failure in my eyes. You can break it down and say the gathering part was OK, and that the analysis was good and bad, but how you report the information, and how much you do to cast the correct doubts, is key to the full cycle of intelligence provision. And the people wanting to make people happy were at various levels, not just frat boy at the top. Those professionals, in that role, should doubt EVERYTHING, not try to make a mountain of a mole hill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 10:54 AM) That's still an intelligence failure in my eyes. You can break it down and say the gathering part was OK, and that the analysis was good and bad, but how you report the information, and how much you do to cast the correct doubts, is key to the full cycle of intelligence provision. And the people wanting to make people happy were at various levels, not just frat boy at the top. Those professionals, in that role, should doubt EVERYTHING, not try to make a mountain of a mole hill. I know and I don't disagree with that or absolve them of blame, but it's still relatively minor and not that hard to fix because it's not some system-wide problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cknolls Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 04:24 PM) Really? It's entirely possible we're better at it, we're just facing a different kind of threat. 30 years ago the KGB and the Israelis appear to have thorougly broken several CIA and FBI agents, for example. Meanwhile, the ability of the government to gather electronic intelligence has likely gone up exponentially, because there's so much more electronic intelligence now and it all runs through our wires. But isn't our Humint worse, or the worst it has ever been? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 QUOTE (Cknolls @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 11:33 AM) But isn't our Humint worse, or the worst it has ever been? It was never really that good to begin with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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