Seanh Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 I'd say we are #3 going in, +/- a spot or 2. And as much as we all as sox fans like to hate on Javy, he's strengthens the Yanks rotation overall. He's going to give them quality innings nearly every start, which you cannot count on from Joba or Hughes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 QUOTE (ChisoxfaninOH @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 06:01 PM) I'd say we are #3 going in, +/- a spot or 2. And as much as we all as sox fans like to hate on Javy, he's strengthens the Yanks rotation overall. He's going to give them quality innings nearly every start, which you cannot count on from Joba or Hughes. Yay! Some realism! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderBolt Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 04:41 PM) In the NL. Okay. He was pretty good in the AL prior to last year too. Still a good pitcher even accounting for a league adjustment period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderBolt Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 QUOTE (MHizzle85 @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 05:06 PM) "Don't tell me about the numbers you put up, tell me when you put them up." I know I messed that quote up, but you get the jist of it. That's a god awful philosophy. Hell, Dan Hudson could win me Game 1 on the World Series, but if he gives me 33 other starts of s*** then I’ve compromised my baseball team by throwing him out there, just because he produced “when it counts.”That’s a hell of a small sample size to make an objective assessment over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buehrle>Wood Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 (edited) Javier Vazquez has one season in the AL where he put up a sub 4.6 ERA (2007, shocker). Petite hasn't had a sub 4 season since 2005 (2002 in the AL). Burnett since 2007. I know ERA isn't close to everything for a pitcher, but I think it's very safe to say our top 3 guys will hover around 3.50 or lower with Mark not too far behind. Sorry, but that's still very effective and I'm not sure where the love is for the Yankees rotation is over ours, except for the 5 spot. Unless some here believe Peavy will drop off the earth with the change of leagues. Edited December 23, 2009 by Buehrle>Wood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 07:28 PM) Okay. He was pretty good in the AL prior to last year too. Still a good pitcher even accounting for a league adjustment period. 4.52 in the AL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Bottom line is, the guy is a valuable innings eater and considering they gave up very little in this deal, it's definitely a positive addition to their ballclub. We should just be happy we were able to get a very solid prospect at a premium position for him and move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHizzle85 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 07:31 PM) That's a god awful philosophy. Hell, Dan Hudson could win me Game 1 on the World Series, but if he gives me 33 other starts of s*** then I’ve compromised my baseball team by throwing him out there, just because he produced “when it counts.”That’s a hell of a small sample size to make an objective assessment over. I don't see how the philosophy is god awful, at least with your god awful explanation. Oh well, I know what I saw when Javy was on this team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilmot825 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Am I the only person who thinks that the Red Sox are so overrated every year with their team. The pitching staff is decent, John Lackey really isn't a STUD pitcher like they paid him. I think Dice-K had one good year since no hitter in the AL was familar with him, thats why his stats sucked this past season. The East-Coast bias is amazing every single season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 QUOTE (MHizzle85 @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 08:50 PM) I don't see how the philosophy is god awful, at least with your god awful explanation. Oh well, I know what I saw when Javy was on this team. It's all about sample size. There are plenty of great pitchers that have gone through bad stretches, and there are plenty of s***ty pitchers that have had a couple of good games. Just because a pitcher had a bad month or two doesn't mean he's an awful pitcher. I'm not saying Vazquez is going to repeat what he did last year, because that'd be pretty unlikely, but he's a pretty solid pitcher and a very good 4th option in a rotation. He gets way too much hate from Sox fans. Your argument about putting up numbers "when it counts" would basically discredit all of Tim Raines career, which is one of the best for any leadoff man in the history of the game. Despite that, he only hit .270/.340/.349 and got thrown out half the time he tried to steal in his postseason career. Does that mean he was a bad hitter who couldn't steal a base? Most certainly not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthsideDon48 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 This is how I see it if Buehrle is the #1 starter: Buehrle Peavy>Burnett Floyd>Pettitte Danks>Vazquez Garcia=Chamberlain/Hughes Sox looks better to me there. Or... if Peavy is the #1 starter: Peavy=Sabathia Buehrle>or=Burnett Floyd>Pettitte Danks>Vazquez Garcia=Chamberlain/Hughes Seems closer, but I still give the edge to the White Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 QUOTE (wilmot825 @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 10:00 PM) Am I the only person who thinks that the Red Sox are so overrated every year with their team. The pitching staff is decent, John Lackey really isn't a STUD pitcher like they paid him. I think Dice-K had one good year since no hitter in the AL was familar with him, thats why his stats sucked this past season. The East-Coast bias is amazing every single season. If everyone stays healthy, look at the top 3 in the Red Sox rotation now. Beckett, Lester, Lackey. Lackey doesn't need to be a #1, but they have 2 really good #2 starters behind Beckett. Matsuzaka fits in spot #4, which could be pretty good for a number 4. Lackey/Lester being a #3 is really where that rotation could shine. Who would you take for a full season, Lackey/Lester or Burnett/Pettitte, for example? The back end of their rotation could be solid or it could be a surprising weakness, but that top 3 should be really good. But...I'm not sure I call it the best in baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderBolt Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 QUOTE (MHizzle85 @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 09:50 PM) I don't see how the philosophy is god awful, at least with your god awful explanation. Oh well, I know what I saw when Javy was on this team. I saw a guy who struck out 184-213-200 in 3 years,while averaging 208 innings and 33 starts per year. I saw a guy who did all of that and got traded because he crapped the bed in a couple of stretch games and had a falling out with his manager. What did you see? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderBolt Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 09:18 PM) 4.52 in the AL. Only 4 years in the AL. 3 of those in The Cell. I'll concede that he very well could give up 30 bombs in New York this year, but his K-numbers and innnings as a 3-4 starter will be enough to render that stat essentially meaningless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 10:18 PM) I saw a guy who struck out 184-213-200 in 3 years,while averaging 208 innings and 33 starts per year. I saw a guy who did all of that and got traded because he crapped the bed in a couple of stretch games and had a falling out with his manager. What did you see? I saw a guy who got benched in 2004 and gave up 6 runs in less than 2 innings when he was put out there in the playoffs. A guy who really wasn't that great in 2005 in the NL, who then really wasn't that great again in 2006 when he came back to the AL. put up 1 or 2 games, and regularly fell apart on a team in a pennant chase. A guy who was legitimately really good on a terrible team in 2007, and a guy who was frankly, worse than you say in 2008 on another team in a pennant chase. Finally, he was very good again back in the junior league in 2009. If the comparison is Javy versus Hughes and Joba...ok, Javy probably is an upgrade. But this guy frustrated us for so long, this guy was an inadequate option for even a 4th starter for 2/3 years with us, and there's plenty of reason for the people here to think he just isn't going to do anything impressive for the Yankees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderBolt Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 10:24 PM) I saw a guy who got benched in 2004 and gave up 6 runs in less than 2 innings when he was put out there in the playoffs. A guy who really wasn't that great in 2005 in the NL, who then really wasn't that great again in 2006 when he came back to the AL. put up 1 or 2 games, and regularly fell apart on a team in a pennant chase. A guy who was legitimately really good on a terrible team in 2007, and a guy who was frankly, worse than you say in 2008 on another team in a pennant chase. Finally, he was very good again back in the junior league in 2009. If the comparison is Javy versus Hughes and Joba...ok, Javy probably is an upgrade. But this guy frustrated us for so long, this guy was an inadequate option for even a 4th starter for 2/3 years with us, and there's plenty of reason for the people here to think he just isn't going to do anything impressive for the Yankees. The numbers don't back that mentality up. Look, I’m glad Javy is gone, he was a p****, a whiner, and Ozzie and he will never see eye to eye. But I can't question that he produced for us, and he's a definite improvement for the Yankees considering the other options were Joba, Mitre, and Gaudin. Javy took us pretty far in his three years here. The problem was that once he got us there he bailed the hell off that train, and descended into a s***-storm of mediocrity, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 10:30 PM) The numbers don't back that mentality up. Look, I’m glad Javy is gone, he was a p****, a whiner, and Ozzie and he will never see eye to eye. But I can't question that he produced for us, and he's a definite improvement for the Yankees considering the other options were Joba, Mitre, and Gaudin. Javy took us pretty far in his three years here. The problem was that once he got us there he bailed the hell off that train, and descended into a s***-storm of mediocrity, His total numbers in 3 years in Chicago: 38-36, 4.40 ERA, 1.25 WHIP. On an average team, those are middle of the rotation numbers. The one thing that Javy does is give you innings. Can't dispute that. He fills a back end of the rotation hole. But I just can't buy him being able to hang with the big boys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 09:21 PM) Only 4 years in the AL. 3 of those in The Cell. I'll concede that he very well could give up 30 bombs in New York this year, but his K-numbers and innnings as a 3-4 starter will be enough to render that stat essentially meaningless. So his strikeouts and moving to an even bigger launching pad with render his high ERA meaningless? You lost me there buddy. He is a flyball pitcher moving to the toughest park he's pitched in, in a stacked league. In our rotation right now he would be slotted as the #5 starter. Peavy and Buehrle are clearly better than Javy, and Danks the last 2 years (out of three) has thrown up sub 4 ERA's in the AL which is something Javy did once in 4 years. Gavin actually gave up less runs this year, but has gone 3.84 and 4.06 in the AL the last two years. Edited December 23, 2009 by RockRaines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthsideDon48 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 10:12 PM) If everyone stays healthy, look at the top 3 in the Red Sox rotation now. Beckett, Lester, Lackey. Lackey doesn't need to be a #1, but they have 2 really good #2 starters behind Beckett. Matsuzaka fits in spot #4, which could be pretty good for a number 4. Lackey/Lester being a #3 is really where that rotation could shine. Who would you take for a full season, Lackey/Lester or Burnett/Pettitte, for example? The back end of their rotation could be solid or it could be a surprising weakness, but that top 3 should be really good. But...I'm not sure I call it the best in baseball. I actually think Boston's rotation looks very similar to the White Sox rotation, it's almost a deadheat: Peavy=Beckett Buehrle Floyd>or=Lester Danks>Matsuzaka Garcia=Wakefield Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sircaffey Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 QUOTE (SouthsideDon48 @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 09:52 PM) I actually think Boston's rotation looks very similar to the White Sox rotation, it's almost a deadheat: Peavy=Beckett Buehrle Floyd>or=Lester Danks>Matsuzaka Garcia=Wakefield How does Floyd > or = Lester? Lester is a BIG step ahead in my opinion, and the best SP Boston has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthsideDon48 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 QUOTE (sircaffey @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 10:57 PM) How does Floyd > or = Lester? Lester is a BIG step ahead in my opinion, and the best SP Boston has. I just can't help but think Lester just had a career year and that it's over-exaggerated because he plays on an east coast team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sircaffey Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 QUOTE (SouthsideDon48 @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 10:00 PM) I just can't help but think Lester just had a career year and that it's over-exaggerated because he plays on an east coast team. Career year at age 25 after going 16-6 w/ 3.21 ERA the season before? I don't know why you would think that. Lester is filthy and an absolute stud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 QUOTE (sircaffey @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 10:13 PM) Career year at age 25 after going 16-6 w/ 3.21 ERA the season before? I don't know why you would think that. Lester is filthy and an absolute stud. Pretty much sums it up. In fact... at times I think he is UNDERrated as a pitcher. Lots of common fans still don't really know how good he is, even as a Red Sox with all that media coverage. Other than his fight with cancer, I never hear his name being brought up as much as "Big game" Beckett, "Mr. Crafty" Wakefield, Dice-K (even the struggles) now Lackey, etc.. and he is probably their best pitcher. If it wasn't an emotional attachment, the fan base, money issues, etc. I would trade him straight up for Buehrle (Boston wouldn't go for it, I know) and not think twice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderBolt Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (RockRaines @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 10:41 PM) So his strikeouts and moving to an even bigger launching pad with render his high ERA meaningless? You lost me there buddy. He is a flyball pitcher moving to the toughest park he's pitched in, in a stacked league. In our rotation right now he would be slotted as the #5 starter. Peavy and Buehrle are clearly better than Javy, and Danks the last 2 years (out of three) has thrown up sub 4 ERA's in the AL which is something Javy did once in 4 years. Gavin actually gave up less runs this year, but has gone 3.84 and 4.06 in the AL the last two years. I'm not going to argue that Javy doesn't have his flaws, i just think he gets a bad rap for a small sample size of actual games pitched. He's a perfectly fine 3-4 option, just don't expect him to man up when it "counts". Edited December 23, 2009 by Thunderbolt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buehrle>Wood Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Dec 23, 2009 -> 04:21 AM) Only 4 years in the AL. 3 of those in The Cell. Why do you attempt to justify that with an "only"? That's a big sample size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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