Per TSN White Sox have #3 rotation in MLB

[ThunderBolt]

Why do you attempt to justify that with an "only"? That's a big sample size.

You're right to point that out. 120 or so starts is a pretty big sample size. My bad.

[Quin]

Here's how I rank my top 3 Rotations in the MLB, the White Sox, Red Sox, and Yankees.

 

Peavy = Sabathia = Beckett: Dead even, they all are good pitchers.

Lester > Buehrle >>> Burnett: Lester is better than Buehrle, but every now and then Buehrle likes to over achieve for his stuff and start dominating. Thats why I have Lester as better, but Buehrle can be better. Burnett isn't close to either.

Floyd > Lackey >>> Pettitte: Floyd has more upside than Lackey, who was overpaid, and had a phenomenal stretch last year. Don't know how much Pettitte has left in the tank.

Danks >> Vazquez > Daisuke: Javy's good, but Danks is better (and it's been beaten to death, but he can step it up at times). I think Daisuke may be closer to last year than this year...

Garcia/Hudson = Wakefield/Bucholz >>> Joba/Hughes. Freddy is better than Wakefield, and Bucholz, while very good, I think isn't a world better than Hudson. Both 5's & 6's are better than Yankees.

[rcpweiner]

Everyone saying Lester and Lackey aren't the best number 2 and 3 starting pitchers of the three teams need to play more fantasy baseball. Also: I don't know how anyone is naming Pettitte as the 3 starter on the Yanks now that they have Javy. He's a pitcher who will be projected to be better.

 

My turn! These are based completely on the quality of the pitchers, not how they would be necessarily be positioned Opening Day to get righty/lefty combos and what-not.

 

1. Sabathia > Peavy > Beckett

2. Lester > Burnett = Buehrle

3. Lackey > Danks > Javy

4. Dice-K = Pettitte = Floyd

5. Joba = Buchholz > Garcia

 

It's close, but putting point values on these (3 points for 1st place, 2 points for 2nd place, 1 point for 3rd place, ties are split) you get the following scores:

 

Red Sox = 11.5

Yankees = 10

White Sox = 8.5

 

Which isn't to say the White Sox have a bad rotation, just the 3rd best of these top 3. In a short playoff series, taking out the 5th starter, we're a toss up with either team:

 

Red Sox = 9

Yankees = 7.5

White Sox = 7.5

 

Which is fine by me!

Edited December 23, 2009 by rcpweiner

[Drew]

How does Floyd > or = Lester? Lester is a BIG step ahead in my opinion, and the best SP Boston has.

 

I like John Lackey—he's a gamer who gets it done when it counts. But hasn't he had health problems the past couple of seasons and since when does a probable 12-14 win season an ace make?

[RockRaines]

Everyone saying Lester and Lackey aren't the best number 2 and 3 starting pitchers of the three teams need to play more fantasy baseball. Also: I don't know how anyone is naming Pettitte as the 3 starter on the Yanks now that they have Javy. He's a pitcher who will be projected to be better.

 

My turn! These are based completely on the quality of the pitchers, not how they would be necessarily be positioned Opening Day to get righty/lefty combos and what-not.

 

1. Sabathia > Peavy > Beckett

2. Lester > Burnett = Buehrle

3. Lackey > Danks > Javy

4. Dice-K = Pettitte = Floyd

5. Joba = Buchholz > Garcia

 

It's close, but putting point values on these (3 points for 1st place, 2 points for 2nd place, 1 point for 3rd place, ties are split) you get the following scores:

 

Red Sox = 11.5

Yankees = 10

White Sox = 8.5

 

Which isn't to say the White Sox have a bad rotation, just the 3rd best of these top 3. In a short playoff series, taking out the 5th starter, we're a toss up with either team:

 

Red Sox = 9

Yankees = 7.5

White Sox = 7.5

 

Which is fine by me!

LOL, Javy is not better than Floyd, are you f***ing high? How is a a 4.52 ERA in the AL better than what Floyd has put up over his development the last 2 years?

[RockRaines]

I'm not going to argue that Javy doesn't have his flaws, i just think he gets a bad rap for a small sample size of actual games pitched. He's a perfectly fine 3-4 option, just don't expect him to man up when it "counts".

Or a 5th starter option considering the White Sox. I am not even sampling his playoff numbers, the guy isnt as good as our #4 guy.

[SouthsideDon48]

Here's how I rank my top 3 Rotations in the MLB, the White Sox, Red Sox, and Yankees.

 

Peavy = Sabathia = Beckett: Dead even, they all are good pitchers.

Lester > Buehrle >>> Burnett: Lester is better than Buehrle, but every now and then Buehrle likes to over achieve for his stuff and start dominating. Thats why I have Lester as better, but Buehrle can be better. Burnett isn't close to either.

Floyd > Lackey >>> Pettitte: Floyd has more upside than Lackey, who was overpaid, and had a phenomenal stretch last year. Don't know how much Pettitte has left in the tank.

Danks >> Vazquez > Daisuke: Javy's good, but Danks is better (and it's been beaten to death, but he can step it up at times). I think Daisuke may be closer to last year than this year...

Garcia/Hudson = Wakefield/Bucholz >>> Joba/Hughes. Freddy is better than Wakefield, and Bucholz, while very good, I think isn't a world better than Hudson. Both 5's & 6's are better than Yankees.

Great post!

[rcpweiner]

LOL, Javy is not better than Floyd, are you f***ing high? How is a a 4.52 ERA in the AL better than what Floyd has put up over his development the last 2 years?

 

Huh? Who said anything about Javy being better than Floyd? Javy is a 3rd starter for the Yankees and Floyd is a 4th starter for the Sox, so I wasn't even comparing those two. In my little equation, Javy is the worst number 3 starter of the three teams. Again, huh?

[GoodAsGould]

Huh? Who said anything about Javy being better than Floyd? Javy is a 3rd starter for the Yankees and Floyd is a 4th starter for the Sox, so I wasn't even comparing those two. In my little equation, Javy is the worst number 3 starter of the three teams. Again, huh?

 

You have Javy being better than Petitte but Petitte being equal to Floyd is what the poster was referring too.

[ThunderBolt]

Or a 5th starter option considering the White Sox. I am not even sampling his playoff numbers, the guy isnt as good as our #4 guy.

Agreed, but he's better then the Yankees 4 guy.

[chetkincaid]

All I know is it feels damn good being in the conversation and having our starting staff compared to the big boys.

 

 

Here are a few equations for you:

 

This years staff >>>>>>Last years staff (See ya later fatolo colon and Sayonara Jose Contreras...)

 

Having our pitching staff compared to the yanks and the sawks>>>>>>having our pitching staff compared to the royals and the pirates

 

I just hope that the starters live up to the hype. Screw the Bears... is it time for Spring Training yet???

 

I can't WAIT!!!

[beck72]

While we're talking about the sox rotation, this could only help improve it.

 

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/artic...sp&c_id=cws

 

It's very interesting to note how players go about their offseasons. From Mark's own words, he seemed to rest his arm during the offseason [not throw, etc, but I'm sure worked out to keep in shape]. And maintained a strength program during the season. Mark has gone through many poor stretches where his location wasn't quite there, and wasn't as sharp. And the results were often horrible, where he'd get knocked around like a little league pitcher. Maybe last season's fade has finally convinced him to change his offseason workouts up, where he can stay stronger during the season. It's not like he's going to throw any harder. But a tired arm has led Mark to struggle with his location.

 

I also remember that Linebrink talked about changing up his offseason routine, that he hardly ever picked up a ball. With his 2nd half fades in recent years, he better be changing things up.

 

I find it interesting that with all the research about training available to these players on how to get in the best shape possible for their respective positions [pitchers, speed and contact guys, power hitters, etc] that more aren't putting this advice into practice. Pro players should be more selective with what training advice they listen to, as all trainers and programs aren't created equal.

[Rowand44]

We are #2. Gavin-Danks-Garcia is better than Pettitte-Joba-Huges. Joba ruins bullpens because he can only pitch half games and Hughes should stay in the pen. Pettitte is a good #4 IMO. The Red Sox are the only team that is clearly better especially 1-3. Beckett-Lackey-Lester is pretty f***ing good.

Nobody's rotation is clearly better than us. I'd definitely accept the argument that the Red Sox and Braves have better rotations than we do but you can make an argument that ours is the number 1 in baseball as well.

[ptatc]

While we're talking about the sox rotation, this could only help improve it.

 

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/artic...sp&c_id=cws

 

It's very interesting to note how players go about their offseasons. From Mark's own words, he seemed to rest his arm during the offseason [not throw, etc, but I'm sure worked out to keep in shape]. And maintained a strength program during the season. Mark has gone through many poor stretches where his location wasn't quite there, and wasn't as sharp. And the results were often horrible, where he'd get knocked around like a little league pitcher. Maybe last season's fade has finally convinced him to change his offseason workouts up, where he can stay stronger during the season. It's not like he's going to throw any harder. But a tired arm has led Mark to struggle with his location.

 

I also remember that Linebrink talked about changing up his offseason routine, that he hardly ever picked up a ball. With his 2nd half fades in recent years, he better be changing things up.

 

I find it interesting that with all the research about training available to these players on how to get in the best shape possible for their respective positions [pitchers, speed and contact guys, power hitters, etc] that more aren't putting this advice into practice. Pro players should be more selective with what training advice they listen to, as all trainers and programs aren't created equal.

The problem is that there is no proven program that is better than another. What hes saying sounds good and it's always better to be in shape but there's no guarantee that it will make him a better pitcher. Professionals can't even agree on the best mechanics. There is zero research showing that stronger muscles will be more effective in pitching. The only thing that is mostly agreed upon is that pitchers injure the rotator cuff the most so a stronger more pliable rotator cuff muscles should help to prevent injuries. However, this has ever been proven.

Even with my research, we just try to do what makes sense and take as much stress off the arm as possible but it is far from absolute.

[bighurt4life]

Javy was also arguably one of the top 5 pitchers in baseball last year. So, yeah. They pass us.

 

He put up good numbers in the NL, in a weak division, in one of the best pitcher's parks in all of baseball. He's going to a loaded AL division and will be pitching half his games in an absolute bandbox. He's in trouble, I promise you that. An ERA of 4.5 or more is just about what we can expect from him although he will still pitch 200 innings and get his 200 K's.

[Balta1701]

although he will still pitch 200 innings and get his 200 K's.

One of these years, he is probably going to break down. Probably not yet, but he'll be 34 middle of next year.

[caulfield12]

The problem is that there is no proven program that is better than another. What hes saying sounds good and it's always better to be in shape but there's no guarantee that it will make him a better pitcher. Professionals can't even agree on the best mechanics. There is zero research showing that stronger muscles will be more effective in pitching. The only thing that is mostly agreed upon is that pitchers injure the rotator cuff the most so a stronger more pliable rotator cuff muscles should help to prevent injuries. However, this has ever been proven.

Even with my research, we just try to do what makes sense and take as much stress off the arm as possible but it is far from absolute.

 

 

Has any official research ever been done on our system and all the injuries pitchers experienced around 1999-2003???

 

Jason Stumm

Danny Wright

Jon Rauch

Jim Parque

Rocky Biddle

Lorenzo Barcelo

Kelly Wunsch

Bobby Howry

James Baldwin

Mike Sirotka

Corwin Malone

Kris Honel (he was later)

Kip Wells (health problems later)

Brandon McCarthy (later)

 

I'm sure I am leaving some names off, just off the top of my head...

 

Was it a run of incredible bad luck, or something that could actually be looked at from a system-wide standpoint, etc.?

 

 

[ChiSox_Sonix]

I saw a guy who struck out 184-213-200 in 3 years,while averaging 208 innings and 33 starts per year. I saw a guy who did all of that and got traded because he crapped the bed in a couple of stretch games and had a falling out with his manager. What did you see?

 

Who cares if you can strike people out when you allow 4-5 runs per start? He has never emulated his success in the NL in the AL. How is that hard to see?

[mmmmmbeeer]

Pretty much sums it up. In fact... at times I think he is UNDERrated as a pitcher. Lots of common fans still don't really know how good he is, even as a Red Sox with all that media coverage. Other than his fight with cancer, I never hear his name being brought up as much as "Big game" Beckett, "Mr. Crafty" Wakefield, Dice-K (even the struggles) now Lackey, etc.. and he is probably their best pitcher. If it wasn't an emotional attachment, the fan base, money issues, etc. I would trade him straight up for Buehrle (Boston wouldn't go for it, I know) and not think twice.

 

I was one of those "common fans". I'd heard the dude was a pretty good pitcher but never really paid much attention. I don't watch much baseball tonight or what have you, just read and watch Sox games. So last season when I watched Lester pitch against the Sox, man, I was pretty impressed. The dude has incredible stuff.

 

[ThunderBolt]

Who cares if you can strike people out when you allow 4-5 runs per start? He has never emulated his success in the NL in the AL. How is that hard to see?

Javy's averages over 200 innings, 34 starts and 187 k's in the AL. His main detriment is the gopher ball, there's nothing other then an inflated ERA that says he's been anything but an above-average pitcher in the AL. I don't think a propensity to suck in some big spots proves that he's lacking in anything but cajones. He's a good pitcher, the numbers back that up.

[NorthSideSox72]

Javy's averages over 200 innings, 34 starts and 187 k's in the AL. His main detriment is the gopher ball, there's nothing other then an inflated ERA that says he's been anything but an above-average pitcher in the AL. I don't think a propensity to suck in some big spots proves that he's lacking in anything but cajones. He's a good pitcher, the numbers back that up.

Other than ERA? So basically, you are saying that other than the most key statistic for starting pitchers, and in the most key pressure situations, he's a good pitcher. OK, I'll give you that. But that means very little. He's a decent pitcher, but he's not a good candidate for that ballpark or that atmosphere, and everything in his career (by your own accounting) says he's not likely to be very good for NYY.

 

[ptatc]

Has any official research ever been done on our system and all the injuries pitchers experienced around 1999-2003???

 

Jason Stumm

Danny Wright

Jon Rauch

Jim Parque

Rocky Biddle

Lorenzo Barcelo

Kelly Wunsch

Bobby Howry

James Baldwin

Mike Sirotka

Corwin Malone

Kris Honel (he was later)

Kip Wells (health problems later)

Brandon McCarthy (later)

 

I'm sure I am leaving some names off, just off the top of my head...

 

Was it a run of incredible bad luck, or something that could actually be looked at from a system-wide standpoint, etc.?

 

I'm not familiar with any research on specific White Sox pitchers. Most of the research currently being done onvolves pitch counts, innings pitched and mechanics of the overhead athlete.

I'm sure the White Sox have looked at it internally. I've discussed pitch count and mechanics philosophy with members of the White Sox medical staff but not on specific pitchers due to HIPPA regulations.

[Balta1701]

Was it a run of incredible bad luck, or something that could actually be looked at from a system-wide standpoint, etc.?

I'll bet there's a good chance you could do a similar list with a lot of teams.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I've got no problem with this piece. We pretty much know what we're getting from Peavy/Buehrle. I, like many here, believe that neither Danks or Floyd have reached their full potential. Pretty scary considering both have easily established themselves as above average starters the last two years. If I'm right, will EASILY have the best rotation in baseball.

[ThunderBolt]

Other than ERA? So basically, you are saying that other than the most key statistic for starting pitchers, and in the most key pressure situations, he's a good pitcher. OK, I'll give you that. But that means very little. He's a decent pitcher, but he's not a good candidate for that ballpark or that atmosphere, and everything in his career (by your own accounting) says he's not likely to be very good for NYY.

I'd have him pegged for an ERA near 4 next year. I'm not going to argue that Javy's going to dominate the AL, i just don't think he's as bad as everyone says. I don't disagree with any specific point of yours, Javy's a flawed guy, and i agree that the park factor and ERA trends put him in a bad spot, i just hate to see Sox fans forget what he achieved for this team.