Per TSN White Sox have #3 rotation in MLB

[Dick Allen]

I'd have him pegged for an ERA near 4 next year. I'm not going to argue that Javy's going to dominate the AL, i just don't think he's as bad as everyone says. I don't disagree with any specific point of yours, Javy's a flawed guy, and i agree that the park factor and ERA trends put him in a bad spot, i just hate to see Sox fans forget what he achieved for this team.

What he achieved for the White Sox? He was paid handsomely and came up big in 2007 when the Sox were one of the worst teams in baseball for most of the year. When they needed him in 2006 and 2008 he wet the bed.

[ThunderBolt]

What he achieved for the White Sox? He was paid handsomely and came up big in 2007 when the Sox were one of the worst teams in baseball for most of the year. When they needed him in 2006 and 2008 he wet the bed.

Are we really going to scoff at him for being the only good pitcher in 2007? How is that to his detriment? He did his job the team didn't. I don't think a franschise with our tenous history with pitching can really afford to look down on: 33 Starts per year, 200 + K's and innings with an era of around 4 in a hitters park.

With years like

2006 29 CHW AL 11 12 .478 4.84 33 32 0 1 0 0 202.2 206 116 109 23 56 2 184 15 0 7 872 98 1.293 9.1 1.0 2.5 8.2 3.29

2007 30 CHW AL 15 8 .652 3.74 32 32 0 2 0 0 216.2 197 95 90 29 50 2 213 7 0 5 882 126 1.140 8.2 1.2 2.1 8.8 4.26

2008 31 CHW AL 12 16 .429 4.67 33 33 0 1 0 0 208.1 214 113 108 25 61 2 200 6 0 2 890 98 1.320 9.2 1.1 2.6 8.6 3.28

 

I never said he was a superb pitcher, i've said multiple times that i'm glad he's gone, that he couldn't perform in the stretch run, that he's homer-prone, but to argue that he did nothing for this team is absolute bull. It reeks of a flawed mentality that a guy should take a permanent hit for a small sample size.

[Dick Allen]

Are we really going to scoff at him for being the only good pitcher in 2007? How is that to his detriment? He did his job the team didn't. I don't think a franschise with our tenous history with pitching can really afford to look down on: 33 Starts per year, 200 + K's and innings with an era of around 4 in a hitters park.

With years like

2006 29 CHW AL 11 12 .478 4.84 33 32 0 1 0 0 202.2 206 116 109 23 56 2 184 15 0 7 872 98 1.293 9.1 1.0 2.5 8.2 3.29

2007 30 CHW AL 15 8 .652 3.74 32 32 0 2 0 0 216.2 197 95 90 29 50 2 213 7 0 5 882 126 1.140 8.2 1.2 2.1 8.8 4.26

2008 31 CHW AL 12 16 .429 4.67 33 33 0 1 0 0 208.1 214 113 108 25 61 2 200 6 0 2 890 98 1.320 9.2 1.1 2.6 8.6 3.28

 

I never said he was a superb pitcher, i've said multiple times that i'm glad he's gone, that he couldn't perform in the stretch run, that he's homer-prone, but to argue that he did nothing for this team is absolute bull. It reeks of a flawed mentality that a guy should take a permanent hit for a small sample size.

Its not bull. He did nothing for the White Sox except win some meaningless games in 2007. Maybe we shouldn't forget what guys do during spring training either. As for the hitters park vs. pitchers park, take a look at White Sox starter splits the last couple years. Seems most do better at the launching pad. Small sample size? 2 seasons in contention, 2 seasons he came up small. Then everything could be forgotten when he gets the nod in the playoffs but he gets lit up like David Hasselhoff on 2 for 1 night. If anything he should appreciate the $30 million + he was paid for being a mental midget. He also fell apart when the Yankees needed him in 2004.

Edited December 24, 2009 by Dick Allen

[chisoxfan09]

To be honest KW is quite excited about the rotation this year. But Coop tempers that with realism that until they win the division or World Series nothing is accomplished:

 

Link - http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/artic...sp&c_id=cws

 

Content - By Scott Merkin / MLB.com

 

12/22/09 2:55 PM EST

 

CHICAGO -- To listen to the White Sox glowing reviews concerning their starting rotation entering 2010, it sounds as if this bunch assembled might be as understatedly spectacular as the front five from 2005.

 

And there's a parade through downtown Chicago -- in front of an adoring 2.5 million fans, along with a World Series trophy -- as a testament to that particular group of talented arms.

 

"I've never had this feeling before going into an offseason," said general manager Ken Williams of the high-quality starting rotation he already had in place entering October. "You are as good as you can possibly be, one through five. Actually, one through six."

 

"I don't know if I've ever been as excited as I am going into a season with the starting staff we have," White Sox left-handed ace Mark Buehrle said.

 

"Jake Peavy and [Mark] Buehrle, [John] Danks, [Gavin] Floyd and [Freddy] Garcia?" said Gordon Beckham, listing off the rotation he will be supporting at his new second-base defensive position. "Come on. They all can pitch."

 

The Red Sox starting trio of John Lackey, Jon Lester and Josh Beckett has a more powerful presence than the White Sox main three of Peavy, Buehrle and either Floyd or Danks. The Yankees' trio of CC Sabathia, A.J. Burnett and Andy Pettitte is coming off an impressive World Series championship run during which they started all 15 postseason contests, and now adds Javier Vazquez to the mix.

 

In terms of absolute rotation talent, though, adding "Big Game" Garcia and rookie Daniel Hudson to the opening four gives the White Sox one Cy Young winner, eight combined All-Star selections and the deepest rotation in all the American League. At least, it looks this way on paper.

 

That mysterious paper doesn't seem to be as impressive to pitching coach Don Cooper as it is to others. He'll want to judge these early kudos in late October or early November, if things go as planned.

 

"Are you asking me if I buy into this best staff stuff? Absolutely not," said Cooper during a recent phone interview. "It's for experts and magazine writers and columnists to voice their opinion.

 

"Our best staff was in 2005, and why? Well, it's because we won a championship. Our second best was in 2008, when we won the division. If we don't get into the playoffs, none of it is worth [anything]."

 

Plenty of reasons for ultimate optimism do exist. Peavy posted a 3-0 record with a 1.35 ERA in three starts after coming to the South Side of Chicago in 2009, exhibiting the impressive sort of movement on his pitches needed to survive at hitter-friendly U.S. Cellular Field. Remember, Peavy found this limited excellence with far less than 100 percent arm strength due to a strained tendon in his right ankle and taking a line drive off of his pitching elbow during a Minor League rehab effort limiting him to a career-low 16 starts.

 

Buehrle explained how part of his excitement was derived from Peavy already planning at the end of last year the amount of starts and victories this rotation will need for 2010 success. Williams, in turn, likes the influence Peavy will have on the younger part of the rotation in Danks, Floyd and even Hudson.

 

"For Danks and Floyd, he's a true No. 1 guy," said Williams of Peavy. "Buehrle is a No. 1 on any given day, but it's hard to emulate what Mark does. Jake pushes the limit of intensity and has a controlled aggression.

 

"Listen, there's a reason why we went out and were as aggressive as we were and gave up good players. We believe in him."

 

Chicago's left-handed ace, Buehrle, stands as the only pitcher in baseball to record at least 10 wins, 30 starts and 200 innings pitched in each of the last nine seasons. Buehrle has one losing record among those nine and one season checking in at .500, leading to a career mark situated 38 games above .500 for a hurler with a fastball in the high 80s on a fast gun.

 

Danks reached 200 innings for the first time in his career in 2009, winning a career-best 13 and finishing with a sub-4.00 ERA for a second consecutive year. Floyd can take no-hit stuff to the mound on any given start, while Garcia as a fifth starter stacks up with the best of them in the most pressurized situations.

 

A 20-game winner or a Cy Young winner might not exist in this group. But much like Buehrle, Garcia, Jon Garland, Jose Contreras, Orlando "El Duque" Hernandez and Brandon McCarthy in 2005, there will be tough, durable competitors giving the White Sox a chance to win more often than not.

 

"Our starters will get you to the back of the bullpen with quite a bit of regularity," Williams said.

 

"We like added pressure and expectations," Danks said. "All of us thrive off of each other and push each other as the team's backbone and solid foundation."

 

Staying healthy will be the key for these pitchers, with injuries to the starting five having the ability to break down even the best of staffs. And by the way, this staff, from top to bottom, is even better with the addition of J.J. Putz to the back end of the bullpen.

 

Just don't try to convince Cooper it's a group already at the top or one with the ability to win a title on its own.

 

"Sure, this is a pretty good staff, but it's all on paper," Cooper said. "It takes defense and timely hitting, more than a good pitching staff, that total combination. If you want to read something that's not conjecture or opinion, then put that down on paper."

 

"If guys do what is expected, don't go above and beyond but sit where you are normally in your career," White Sox reliever Matt Thornton said, "our starting rotation and our bullpen have a chance to be tops in the game."

 

 

[RockRaines]

I'd have him pegged for an ERA near 4 next year. I'm not going to argue that Javy's going to dominate the AL, i just don't think he's as bad as everyone says. I don't disagree with any specific point of yours, Javy's a flawed guy, and i agree that the park factor and ERA trends put him in a bad spot, i just hate to see Sox fans forget what he achieved for this team.

You have him pegged for a lower ERA than his avg in the AL after moving to the biggest hitters park he's ever pitched in. Doesnt reality play a role in this whatsoever?

[lostfan]

Why do you guys keep poking Thunderbolt with the same stick after he addresses individual points multiple times, I know the guy can be stubborn but come on now, here he is repeating himself because the same question is being asked over and over. (not referring to Rock's post above though cuz I think that's a valid question)

[ThunderBolt]

Yeah, can we just agree to disagree? I'm not really getting my rocks off on debating about Javier Vasquez. A guy whose neither on the team i root for nor particularly a favorite of mine.

[knightni]

I'll be shocked if Vazquez finishes with an ERA better than 4.25 next year. Maybe not even better than 4.50.

[SouthsideDon48]

Are we really going to scoff at him for being the only good pitcher in 2007? How is that to his detriment? He did his job the team didn't. I don't think a franschise with our tenous history with pitching can really afford to look down on: 33 Starts per year, 200 + K's and innings with an era of around 4 in a hitters park.

With years like

2006 29 CHW AL 11 12 .478 4.84 33 32 0 1 0 0 202.2 206 116 109 23 56 2 184 15 0 7 872 98 1.293 9.1 1.0 2.5 8.2 3.29

2007 30 CHW AL 15 8 .652 3.74 32 32 0 2 0 0 216.2 197 95 90 29 50 2 213 7 0 5 882 126 1.140 8.2 1.2 2.1 8.8 4.26

2008 31 CHW AL 12 16 .429 4.67 33 33 0 1 0 0 208.1 214 113 108 25 61 2 200 6 0 2 890 98 1.320 9.2 1.1 2.6 8.6 3.28

 

I never said he was a superb pitcher, i've said multiple times that i'm glad he's gone, that he couldn't perform in the stretch run, that he's homer-prone, but to argue that he did nothing for this team is absolute bull. It reeks of a flawed mentality that a guy should take a permanent hit for a small sample size.

You said he performed in 2007 when the team didn't.

 

Well in 2008, he didn't perform when the team did, and that hurt us the most because we lost momentum in the playoff series against Tampa after he botched the first game.

 

I predict Javy will have an ERA of 4.60 with his usual 200 k's.

[sircaffey]

Just to put it on record...I'll say Javy goes 16-9, 3.90 ERA, 195 K.

[stretchstretch]

I saw a guy who got benched in 2004 and gave up 6 runs in less than 2 innings when he was put out there in the playoffs. A guy who really wasn't that great in 2005 in the NL, who then really wasn't that great again in 2006 when he came back to the AL. put up 1 or 2 games, and regularly fell apart on a team in a pennant chase. A guy who was legitimately really good on a terrible team in 2007, and a guy who was frankly, worse than you say in 2008 on another team in a pennant chase. Finally, he was very good again back in the junior league in 2009.

 

If the comparison is Javy versus Hughes and Joba...ok, Javy probably is an upgrade. But this guy frustrated us for so long, this guy was an inadequate option for even a 4th starter for 2/3 years with us, and there's plenty of reason for the people here to think he just isn't going to do anything impressive for the Yankees.

 

 

Javy will pull a Swisher with the Yankees, bet on it........

[bighurt4life]

Just to put it on record...I'll say Javy goes 16-9, 3.90 ERA, 195 K.

 

I just don't see that happening. He's moving into the AL, into best division in baseball, in the worst pitchers park in baseball (at least it is on par with coors field) and he's doing all of this coming from one of the biggest parks in all of baseball where his flyballs go to die. In the new Yankee Stadium there's going to be a lot of those flyballs that will fly right out into the stands. Granted he'll have great run support that should inflate his win totals but I'd be shocked to see his ERA anywhere south of 4.00, I really think that 4.5 or higher is what we can expect to see. If for some reason he doesn't get well above average run support a sub .500 win percentage is what we can expect to see from Javy.

[southsider2k5]

Javy will pull a Swisher with the Yankees, bet on it........

 

Start off hot then choke down the stretch and lose his position?

[ScottyDo]

javier vazquez makes the yankees better because joba/hughes would put up an ERA over 5

[IamPabloOzuna]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-2...,2912624.column

 

Phil Rogers ranks the top 13 rotations in baseball...and lets just say he's not on the same page as TSN. But to be fair he used his very own, super-duper, extra special, top secret formula.

[Rowand44]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-2...,2912624.column

 

Phil Rogers ranks the top 13 rotations in baseball...and lets just say he's not on the same page as TSN. But to be fair he used his very own, super-duper, extra special, top secret formula.

lol. Wow, just wow.

[bighurt4life]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-2...,2912624.column

 

Phil Rogers ranks the top 13 rotations in baseball...and lets just say he's not on the same page as TSN. But to be fair he used his very own, super-duper, extra special, top secret formula.

 

The Tigers, Mariners, Rockies, and Cards ahead of the Sox??? That's crazy talk, the Mariners and Cards both have a very good 1-2 but they're pretty weak after that, Tigers have a great #1 and then a bunch of question marks. The Rockies?? they simply don't belong anywhere on this list.

[Kyyle23]

javier vazquez makes the yankees better because joba/hughes would put up an ERA over 5

 

Honestly I wouldnt be surprised if Javy did the same thing

[EvilJester99]

The Tigers, Mariners, Rockies, and Cards ahead of the Sox??? That's crazy talk, the Mariners and Cards both have a very good 1-2 but they're pretty weak after that, Tigers have a great #1 and then a bunch of question marks. The Rockies?? they simply don't belong anywhere on this list.

Bahhh its just Rogers...if the Scrubs had this starting staff...he would declare this the best rotation ever.

[mmmmmbeeer]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-2...,2912624.column

 

Phil Rogers ranks the top 13 rotations in baseball...and lets just say he's not on the same page as TSN. But to be fair he used his very own, super-duper, extra special, top secret formula.

 

 

While I obviously strongly disagree with where he placed the Sox, this whole list is jacked up. Considering his "formula", I'm not surprised his list was pretty well dominated by NL teams.

 

When you use:

 

"Halladay should dominate in the NL. There's depth but no clear-cut No. 2 among Cole Hamels, J.A. Happ and Joe Blanton."

 

To justify the third "best" rotation in baseball, yeah, your formula obviously sucks.

[Springfield Soxfan]

Yes, I agree with all of you, 12th in baseball, that is just crazy. Especially the Cardinals and Rockies.....

[Dick Allen]

Does it really matter where TSN or Phil Rogers ranks them? No need to get worked up over it.

[ScottyDo]

Does it really matter where TSN or Phil Rogers ranks them? No need to get worked up over it.

No, it doesn't matter but it IS hilarious on Rogers' part. He is so smart, he is so smart, S-M-R-T.

[iamshack]

Does it really matter where TSN or Phil Rogers ranks them? No need to get worked up over it.

Especially Rogers....no one should ever get worked up over that guy...

[Balta1701]

Wow.

 

Anyway...yeah, the Giants, I probably underestimated them earlier. That's a top 4 rotation too, probably better than that even.