Holliday gets Paid!

[Brian]

7 years, $120 Million

[Balta1701]

If this commitment of money means they can't afford to extend Albert at roughly ARod rates, then it's an absolutely foolish contract.

[Kyyle23]

If this commitment of money means they can't afford to extend Albert at roughly ARod rates, then it's an absolutely foolish contract.

 

This is going to hamstring them in more ways than just signing Pujols again. The Cards cannot spend money like the Yankees, there are going to be a lot of bargain bin fill in positions around Holliday and Pujols in the next 7 years

[SoxFan562004]

If this commitment of money means they can't afford to extend Albert at roughly ARod rates, then it's an absolutely foolish contract.

yeah but it might be one of those things were Pujols and his agents told the Cardinals if they don't resign Holliday or a comparable batter they can forget about signing him.

[Jordan4life_2007]

This is going to hamstring them in more ways than just signing Pujols again. The Cards cannot spend money like the Yankees, there are going to be a lot of bargain bin fill in positions around Holliday and Pujols in the next 7 years

 

And their farm system absolutely blows right now. Say what you will about Boras. But the dude is the Michael Jordan of his profession.

[southsider2k5]

If this commitment of money means they can't afford to extend Albert at roughly ARod rates, then it's an absolutely foolish contract.

 

I'm guessing this means they know they won't be able to, and are trying to "replace" him.

[BaseballNick]

I'm guessing this means they know they won't be able to, and are trying to "replace" him.

 

I think they only way he doesn't stay a Cardinal is if he really wants to play elsewhere. The Cards draw a ton of fans (about 3.5 million in each of the last six seasons) and have a beautiful new park. Those 3.5 million people come to see Albert Pujols hit baseballs. I think they can afford to pay two superstar players and will likely do so.

[Leonard Zelig]

The thought around St. Louis is that the Cardinals had to sign a big bat to convince Albert that they are going to be competitive in the next several years in order for him to resign. I don't know what the rest of their roster will look like, but I would be surprised if Albert isn't resigned before he hits free agency.

[SoxFan562004]

The thought around St. Louis is that the Cardinals had to sign a big bat to convince Albert that they are going to be competitive in the next several years in order for him to resign. I don't know what the rest of their roster will look like, but I would be surprised if Albert isn't resigned before he hits free agency.

it begs the question if he isn't resigned by the season do they seriously have to consider trading him, i mean they really can't just let him walk and get a pick in compensation.

 

but yes, Albert mentioned something earlier last season about wanting to see the Cards show they're going to have a good team before he resigned, so resigning Holliday basically had to be done

[SoxAce]

Hopefully this doesn't force Albert out for their sake. But as of this season.. Albert will LOVE the protection. Pujols-Holliday 1-2 will be very good in the NL Central. Cards again will be a force to beat in that division.

[southsider2k5]

I think they only way he doesn't stay a Cardinal is if he really wants to play elsewhere. The Cards draw a ton of fans (about 3.5 million in each of the last six seasons) and have a beautiful new park. Those 3.5 million people come to see Albert Pujols hit baseballs. I think they can afford to pay two superstar players and will likely do so.

 

Do you think they will be willing to spend about $400 million or so do it?

[Kyyle23]

I just cant get my head around the fact that the Cardinals will be paying roughly 35 million dollars to two players if/when Albert gets extended. According to this site the payroll last year was $ 88,528,409, can they honestly commit that much money to two players without losing out in quality in the rest of the team? The owner must be increasing the payroll, but from what I recall the Cardinals still try to operate on a smaller budget even with the new stadium and sellouts

[Balta1701]

I just cant get my head around the fact that the Cardinals will be paying roughly 35 million dollars to two players if/when Albert gets extended. According to this site the payroll last year was $ 88,528,409, can they honestly commit that much money to two players without losing out in quality in the rest of the team? The owner must be increasing the payroll, but from what I recall the Cardinals still try to operate on a smaller budget even with the new stadium and sellouts

I think Pujols is probably somewhat comparable to Lebron, in the sense of bringing a huge amount of additional value to the team just by being there. I'm not sure how much that counts, but I would bet they'd lose more money if they let him walk.

[Kyyle23]

I think Pujols is probably somewhat comparable to Lebron, in the sense of bringing a huge amount of additional value to the team just by being there. I'm not sure how much that counts, but I would bet they'd lose more money if they let him walk.

 

I agree with that, but can it offset this amount of money?

[Balta1701]

I agree with that, but can it offset this amount of money?

Reasonable estimates of the team value of the Cavs seem to suggest that having scored the 2003 #1 pick has probably increased the value of the Cavs franchise by about $100 million over the past 7 years, and if he were to leave it'd knock an immediate $50 million off of the value of that asset (again, not considering things like revenue there, just considering the value of the franchise itself if it were sold).

[Kyyle23]

Reasonable estimates of the team value of the Cavs seem to suggest that having scored the 2003 #1 pick has probably increased the value of the Cavs franchise by about $100 million over the past 7 years, and if he were to leave it'd knock an immediate $50 million off of the value of that asset (again, not considering things like revenue there, just considering the value of the franchise itself if it were sold).

 

yeah, but the payroll hasnt really increased all that much in St Louis the past 10 years because Pujols has been on the team, and after the contract is signed it wouldnt seem like they would have a huge jump in popularity. This isnt adding a star, this is resigning a star.

 

Plus, the Cavs were dreadful. The Cardinals have stayed competitive since LaRussa has been in charge

[RockRaines]

SOmething to think about is that in the NL Central 2 sluggers like that puts you in the drivers seat for as long as they are there. The division is THAT bad with a terrible future. The Cubs are getting older and must rebuild with no farm system, the Pirates and Astros are hopeless. Pujols+Holliday should net them 1st or 2nd in that division year over year.

[BaseballNick]

Do you think they will be willing to spend about $400 million or so do it?

 

I'm no expert on the finances and revenue streams of the St. Louis Cardinals, but I don't think they could send a worse message to their incredibly loyal fans than to not keep a homegrown talent that has become the best hitter in the entire game.

[SoxFan562004]

The contract maybe a little big, but I see why the Cards went ahead and made this deal, even with the Pujols situation looming.

 

First, he was a Boras client, so they knew what they were dealing with the second they sat down at the table to negotiate, when you negotiate with Boras, you know you are going to pay premium dollar for a player. Also, I know the market was limited, but I would have to think there were at least a team or two out there interested in him. I would have to imagine after losing Figgins, Lackey and Guerrero's contract coming off the books that the LAA not only had money, which they always do, but interest. Then, as much as we make fun of Boras' "mystery team" tactic, I think there's always some grain of truth to it.

 

Then just look at their team. It's a vicious circle with the Pujols deal. You have no chance to sign him unless you commit money to the current team, which may in the future preclude you from signing Pujols. So are they suppose to build a quality team for next year and hope Albert signs or lose Holiday, fall back to the pack in the NL Central and piss off Albert forcing him out of town?

 

As far as I see it here's the obvious options the Cards front office looked at:

 

1. Sign Holliday and continue the contract extension talks with Pujols hoping that the 88m payroll they currently have has built in money to add the pay bump for Pujols.

 

2. If Pujols walks you have a very good player to build around, obviously not Pujols, but realistically if you lose Pujols you are not going to be able to replace him player for player, it's going to be multiple players in the field and on the mound. It would be better than being stuck without Pujols and Holliday.

 

Obviously there are other ways this situation that this can go, but those are the two overwhelming cut and dry scenarios I see.

 

Let me make this clear, in no way shape or form do I think the Cards front office signed Holliday with the idea that it would severely cramp their ability to sign Pujols to a contract extension that they think would work for them. There has to be a contract limit that they can expect to sign Albert to without limiting their ability to compete at a high level year in and year out. I imagine part of the "recruitment" plan to keep Albert was resigning Holliday, LaRussa and Duncan (yes, I understand Duncan is a pitching coach, but Pujols has to realize his value to the team). However, if in negotiations the Cardinals realize they have zero chance of resigning him then they have to have a solid Plan B, then the question becomes do they trade him before he walks?

 

As far as Pujols goes, if it's a pure money grab than he won't be in St. Louis because only 3-4 teams can afford that type of contract, off the top of my head it's LAA, NYY, Bos and NYM and Stl. couldn't compete in a bidding war. If he's willing to take a little less than the tip top money, still a ton of money and years than he can stay in St. Louis. As I've stated in other threads, these players have a unique talent that allow them the ability to demand top money or take a little less to stay in a comfortable place, and I don't begrudge either decision.

 

What is St. Louis suppose to do, make some sort of symbolic stand by being stubborn and getting outbid on him? They have to look to the long term health of your franchise and in a realistic scenario that may not involve Pujols.

 

(sorry if this is a little jumbled, it was stream of thought, so I reserve the right to edit heavily!)

[Leonard Zelig]

Tony LaRussa will be on http://www.101espn.com/ soon.

[southsider2k5]

I'm no expert on the finances and revenue streams of the St. Louis Cardinals, but I don't think they could send a worse message to their incredibly loyal fans than to not keep a homegrown talent that has become the best hitter in the entire game.

 

I do understand that, but at some point the bottom line comes into account, and the Cards have NEVER been a team to spend a ton of money. I don't see them cutting into the bottom line to the degree that it would take to keep Pujols and a competative team. You are talking about something like $45 to $50 million a season for two players, if Albert gets something close to, or more than, ARod. Then you still have to pay 23 other players.

[Balta1701]

I do understand that, but at some point the bottom line comes into account, and the Cards have NEVER been a team to spend a ton of money. I don't see them cutting into the bottom line to the degree that it would take to keep Pujols and a competative team. You are talking about something like $45 to $50 million a season for two players, if Albert gets something close to, or more than, ARod. Then you still have to pay 23 other players.

If this move costs them Pujols, it's a terrible business decision. What do we think the salary difference between Holliday and Pujols will be over the span of this contract? Probably about $10 million a season, give or take. Now, really, in terms of marketing, merchandise, and the value of the franchise, do we think that Albert Pujols is worth an extra $10 million a year to the Cardinals? I'd say absolutely. If you had to pick between, simply as a business decision, offering Pujols $28 million a year and offering Holliday $17 million a year and losing Pujols, keeping the every-year-MVP is an easy, obvious decision.

[SoxFan562004]

If this move costs them Pujols, it's a terrible business decision. What do we think the salary difference between Holliday and Pujols will be over the span of this contract? Probably about $10 million a season, give or take. Now, really, in terms of marketing, merchandise, and the value of the franchise, do we think that Albert Pujols is worth an extra $10 million a year to the Cardinals? I'd say absolutely. If you had to pick between, simply as a business decision, offering Pujols $28 million a year and offering Holliday $17 million a year and losing Pujols, keeping the every-year-MVP is an easy, obvious decision.

I look at it more of 7/120 over what's realistic for Albert if he hits the open market and the mega spenders are allowed to bid, 10/300, 7/210? I don't think 30m per season is out of the question, and you're in an era where it's a lot harder to get those contracts insured.

 

Again, I really think it comes down to where if they don't resign Holliday or a comparable bat or a top flight pitcher Pujols will be a hell of a lot more reluctant to resign before he's a FA, and if he hits FA he's not resigning with the Cards IMO, if he's made the choice to go for top dollar, I don't see that being in St. Louis.

 

There's many possibilities, it's possible Stl. has been holding a little payroll back knowing full well they're going to have to add a ton with Albert.

 

From a business position, Stl. is one of the best baseball cities in America. Will it sting to trade or have Pujols walk in FA? Absolutely, but I do not see it shutting off the fan base to a point where it's a major hit when compared to potentially doubling the money they are guaranteeing to Holliday. Again, Stl. has to have a realistic plan B if Albert wants to leave for more money.

Edited January 6, 2010 by SoxFan562004

[dpd9189]

I look at it more of 7/120 over what's realistic for Albert if he hits the open market and the mega spenders are allowed to bid, 10/300, 7/210? I don't think 30m per season is out of the question, and you're in an era where it's a lot harder to get those contracts insured.

 

Again, I really think it comes down to where if they don't resign Holliday or a comparable bat or a top flight pitcher Pujols will be a hell of a lot more reluctant to resign before he's a FA, and if he hits FA he's not resigning with the Cards IMO, if he's made the choice to go for top dollar, I don't see that being in St. Louis.

 

There's many possibilities, it's possible Stl. has been holding a little payroll back knowing full well they're going to have to add a ton with Albert.

 

From a business position, Stl. is one of the best baseball cities in America. Will it sting to trade or have Pujols walk in FA? Absolutely, but I do not see it shutting off the fan base to a point where it's a major hit when compared to potentially doubling the money they are guaranteeing to Holliday. Again, Stl. has to have a realistic plan B if Albert wants to leave for more money.

 

 

 

I don't like this signing at all, possibly the worst this offseason. 7 yrs 120 mil for a 30 year old who's best years might be behind him very soon, plus its going to hamstring the Cards from making future moves. They won't make playoffs this year, book it.

[Leonard Zelig]

I don't like this signing at all, possibly the worst this offseason. 7 yrs 120 mil for a 30 year old who's best years might be behind him very soon, plus its going to hamstring the Cards from making future moves. They won't make playoffs this year, book it.

 

So who are you picking to win the NL Central?