Castro is back.

[danman31]

This is probably a sign that the Sox are worried about Flowers not being ready as a hitter. His K rate at Charlotte and with the Sox last year was just awful. I'm thinking Flowers isn't ready, forget what you hear about his defense.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

So instead we would have entered the season with one decent player, and five minor leaguers. Sounds like the end of 2007 to me.

Over the course of a season, the contributions of one very good everyday hitter is going to dwarf the combined improvements of a bunch of past-their-primes veteran backups over what we could have fit in for the league minimum, either in-house or via ST invitees on MiLB contracts.

 

The other thing is, bench players are always for sale during the season and cost basically nothing. We got Kotsay and Castro midseason both at the pro-rated minimum IIRC for the [sarcasm]steep price[/sarcasm] of Brian Anderson and Lance Broadway. I guarantee the price is going to be a lot steeper for a big bat during the season.

 

This aversion to running cheap minor leaguers out there as bench players is kind of surprising since we've benefited from that quite a bit in the past, bringing in guys like Widger, Ozuna, Uribe, etc. But it seems like almost every time we spend on a bench, and go after the Sandy Alomars, and the Toby Halls, and the Alex Cintrons and Rob Mackowiaks, we end up getting burned by wasting money that could have gone to other, more important areas.

 

BTW, the players we've put in place on the bench do make us better - marginally better, but still better. Individually I would have no problem with these moves *if* we could afford them, but we can't. Kenny knew at least since the organizational meetings how broke we were, and how little we had left to spend, and yet he *still* put the bench ahead of the need for offensive firepower. Maybe if we all close our eyes and tap our heels together three times we'll end up in the magical world of the NL West where none of this matters at all...

[southsider2k5]

Over the course of a season, the contributions of one very good everyday hitter is going to dwarf the combined improvements of a bunch of past-their-primes veteran backups over what we could have fit in for the league minimum, either in-house or via ST invitees on MiLB contracts.

 

The other thing is, bench players are always for sale during the season and cost basically nothing. We got Kotsay and Castro midseason both at the pro-rated minimum IIRC for the [sarcasm]steep price[/sarcasm] of Brian Anderson and Lance Broadway. I guarantee the price is going to be a lot steeper for a big bat during the season.

 

This aversion to running cheap minor leaguers out there as bench players is kind of surprising since we've benefited from that quite a bit in the past, bringing in guys like Widger, Ozuna, Uribe, etc. But it seems like almost every time we spend on a bench, and go after the Sandy Alomars, and the Toby Halls, and the Alex Cintrons and Rob Mackowiaks, we end up getting burned by wasting money that could have gone to other, more important areas.

 

BTW, the players we've put in place on the bench do make us better - marginally better, but still better. Individually I would have no problem with these moves *if* we could afford them, but we can't. Kenny knew at least since the organizational meetings how broke we were, and how little we had left to spend, and yet he *still* put the bench ahead of the need for offensive firepower. Maybe if we all close our eyes and tap our heels together three times we'll end up in the magical world of the NL West where none of this matters at all...

 

Unless that one decent player gets hurt, which has been the history of many of the guys who have been advocated for here ad naseum, such as Vlad, Thome, Johnson, etc. Then we are stuck with a bad player our line up and a horrible bench. Common sense tells you that the way Ozzie likes to use his bench, you probably should have guys who fit that. Having a bench that belongs at Charlotte doesn't achieve that.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Unless that one decent player gets hurt, which has been the history of many of the guys who have been advocated for here ad naseum, such as Vlad, Thome, Johnson, etc. Then we are stuck with a bad player our line up and a horrible bench. Common sense tells you that the way Ozzie likes to use his bench, you probably should have guys who fit that. Having a bench that belongs at Charlotte doesn't achieve that.

That's a terrible argument though. You could say that about anyone on our team. What if Peavy gets hurt, how badly does that hurt us? Sure, players like Vlad, Thome, and Johnson may not be the greatest bets to play a full season without issues, but neither is Paul Konerko, neither is Carlos Quentin. And let's say one of Paulie/Q go down, who would you rather have, a bunch of decent bench players and some scrub like Andruw Jones to fill in, or a bunch of bad (but good defensive) bench players with another big bat already there?

 

Also, every current member of our bench belongs in Charlotte anyway if he wants everyday playing time. The guys we have brought in may be a level above what we had in-house, but league average, full-time MLB players are still at least a level or two above each guy on our bench. There isn't this vast seas worth of ability separating the 2009 versions Andruw Jones, Mark Kotsay, and Omar Vizquel from the 2009 versions of Josh Kroeger, Alejandro DeAza, and Brent Lillibridge/Jayson Nix.

[Steve9347]

Castro doesn't hit a lick, but he's a nice defensive catcher.

[southsider2k5]

That's a terrible argument though. You could say that about anyone on our team. What if Peavy gets hurt, how badly does that hurt us? Sure, players like Vlad, Thome, and Johnson may not be the greatest bets to play a full season without issues, but neither is Paul Konerko, neither is Carlos Quentin. And let's say one of Paulie/Q go down, who would you rather have, a bunch of decent bench players and some scrub like Andruw Jones to fill in, or a bunch of bad (but good defensive) bench players with another big bat already there?

 

Also, every current member of our bench belongs in Charlotte anyway if he wants everyday playing time. The guys we have brought in may be a level above what we had in-house, but league average, full-time MLB players are still at least a level or two above each guy on our bench. There isn't this vast seas worth of ability separating the 2009 versions Andruw Jones, Mark Kotsay, and Omar Vizquel from the 2009 versions of Josh Kroeger, Alejandro DeAza, and Brent Lillibridge/Jayson Nix.

 

If you really believe this, there is no point in continuing on.

[soxrwhite]

Flowers has been hyped as the heir apparent but what has he really done at any level? We need some one who can throw some body out. A.J. can't lets face it. He is a good backstop and handles the pithers well and of course he hits so we will take him, but you can't have a defensive liability (Flowers) behind him. If A.J. goes down then Castro and Flowers will be one and two. Until then give Flowers another year in AAA and see what A.J.'s situation is then. As for DH I think what we have is what we are going to get. I don't want to see a slow base clogger in the middle of the lineup. We got guys who can hit (Konerko,Quentin, Beckham, Ramirez,Teahan,and Rios?) Lets run a little this year. Play some Ozzie ball.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

[/b]

 

If you really believe this, there is no point in continuing on.

Here's a quick example:

 

Brent Lillibridge vs. Omar Vizquel

 

Lillibridge's MLB career: 197 PA, 175 AB, .177/.258/.251/.509

Vizquel in 2009: 195 PA, 175 AB, .266/.316/.345/.660

 

Vizquel has 16 more hits total, which is an average of an extra 2.7H per month. Both only have 10 XBH. Lillibridge actually has 4 more walks. Vizquel can play 2B, SS, and 3B better than Lilli can, but Lillibridge is pretty good himself, and Lillibridge can also play CF and pinch run. Vizquel's bunting ability is an advantage as well as experience, however Lillibridge is 26 next year while Vizquel is 43.

 

Vizquel is a little bit better overall, but in the year 2010 only, there is no huge gap in ability between the two. In terms of pay however, Vizquel will make about $975K more than Lillibridge would have, which is a lot when you consider how little players like Matsui and Johnson signed for.

 

Neither Vizquel nor Lillibridge belong on the field regularly at all. They are *supposed* to be there only to spell the regulars and act as insurance options. Now, if Ozzie is planning on giving Vizquel a good 350-400 PA then obviously Vizquel becomes a whole lot better, *BUT* if that were the case then it shouldn't make Vizquel look like a smart use of money, it should instead make people call for Ozzie's firing.

[southsider2k5]

Here's a quick example:

 

Brent Lillibridge vs. Omar Vizquel

 

Lillibridge's MLB career: 197 PA, 175 AB, .177/.258/.251/.509

Vizquel in 2009: 195 PA, 175 AB, .266/.316/.345/.660

 

Vizquel has 16 more hits total, which is an average of an extra 2.7H per month. Both only have 10 XBH. Lillibridge actually has 4 more walks. Vizquel can play 2B, SS, and 3B better than Lilli can, but Lillibridge is pretty good himself, and Lillibridge can also play CF and pinch run. Vizquel's bunting ability is an advantage as well as experience, however Lillibridge is 26 next year while Vizquel is 43.

 

Vizquel is a little bit better overall, but in the year 2010 only, there is no huge gap in ability between the two. In terms of pay however, Vizquel will make about $975K more than Lillibridge would have, which is a lot when you consider how little players like Matsui and Johnson signed for.

 

Neither Vizquel nor Lillibridge belong on the field regularly at all. They are *supposed* to be there only to spell the regulars and act as insurance options. Now, if Ozzie is planning on giving Vizquel a good 350-400 PA then obviously Vizquel becomes a whole lot better, *BUT* if that were the case then it shouldn't make Vizquel look like a smart use of money, it should instead make people call for Ozzie's firing.

 

So 150 points of OPS is virtually the same. Yeah, that totally reinforces my point.

 

[Balta1701]

If y'all are worried about cost and think that Flowers will be ready mid-season, it's always possible to trade backup catchers, there's always a few teams looking for them. We could grab someone else's Lance Broadway for him and bring Flowers up at that point.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

So 150 points of OPS is virtually the same. Yeah, that totally reinforces my point.

Uh, did you read the post? 197 PA vs. 195 PA. And I don't think that's much of a difference when you're talking about a .660 OPS vs. a .509 OPS. BTW, in 2008 Vizquel posted a .550 OPS in the NL in 300 PA. It should be more than obvious that both players are only valuable as defensive subs, and in the case of Lillibridge, as a pinch runner.

 

Edit: Also, instead of using OPS you should have talked about batting average. Over the span I gave, they both have the smae number of XBH and Lillibridge has more walks. Vizquel has a few more hits, probably because he makes a lot more contact and played in a fast infield. That's really the only major difference between the 2 offensively.

Edited January 12, 2010 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[Balta1701]

Uh, did you read the post? 197 PA vs. 195 PA. And I don't think that's much of a difference when you're talking about a .660 OPS vs. a .509 OPS. BTW, in 2008 Vizquel posted a .550 OPS in the NL in 300 PA. It should be more than obvious that both players are only valuable as defensive subs, and in the case of Lillibridge, as a pinch runner.

 

Edit: Also, instead of using OPS you should have talked about batting average. Over the span I gave, they both have the smae number of XBH and Lillibridge has more walks. Vizquel has a few more hits, probably because he makes a lot more contact and played in a fast infield. That's really the only major difference between the 2 offensively.

In both his 2008 and 2009 stints in the big leagues, Lillibridge put up UZR numbers between 0 and -1, while in the last 4 years, Vizquel has put up UZR numbers of 5.2, 20.2, 4.9, and 5.3. Even at his age, Vizquel also appears to be a better defender than Lillibridge.

[iamshack]

I don't know about you guys, but my hopes in regards to OV's contributions have a lot more to do with Alexei and Gordo than what his own contributions will be off the bench.

 

Lilli certainly would not be helping in that way.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

In both his 2008 and 2009 stints in the big leagues, Lillibridge put up UZR numbers between 0 and -1, while in the last 4 years, Vizquel has put up UZR numbers of 5.2, 20.2, 4.9, and 5.3. Even at his age, Vizquel also appears to be a better defender than Lillibridge.

I agree that Vizquel is the better IF defender and have said as much. My point is that there's not an enormous difference in ability between the two especially when you factor in Lillibridge's ability to play CF and pinch run. The difference between the two is definitely not worth $975K when you can't afford to give Matsui $6.5M or Johnson $5.75M.

 

Kenny has made a series of these moves this offseason, overpaying for veteran bench players who aren't a whole lot better than what we could have gotten at the minimum, and by doing that he has priced himself out of the bidding for players he actually needed. A Kroeger/various AAAA players battle for 4th OF/1B could have saved another $1.1M that went to Kotsay; Armstrong/various AAAA player battle for backup C could have saved another $600K that went to Castro, etc. Add this stuff up, then bring in a guy like Winn instead of Pierre or trade for someone like Gardner, and now we've got enough to pay Matsui. Kenny blew it this year.

[joeynach]

I think we can win with Jones as our DH. I just don''t think we should have to chance it. There's no reason to have to gamble on lightning in a bottle for a position that we absolutely need results from. A gamble makes sense if we're talking CF, but we need power, and we need results.

 

It will be a Jones and Kotsay DH platoon, its fairly obvious, Ozzie has been saying it all along.

[ptatc]

I agree that Vizquel is the better IF defender and have said as much. My point is that there's not an enormous difference in ability between the two especially when you factor in Lillibridge's ability to play CF and pinch run. The difference between the two is definitely not worth $975K when you can't afford to give Matsui $6.5M or Johnson $5.75M.

 

Kenny has made a series of these moves this offseason, overpaying for veteran bench players who aren't a whole lot better than what we could have gotten at the minimum, and by doing that he has priced himself out of the bidding for players he actually needed. A Kroeger/various AAAA players battle for 4th OF/1B could have saved another $1.1M that went to Kotsay; Armstrong/various AAAA player battle for backup C could have saved another $600K that went to Castro, etc. Add this stuff up, then bring in a guy like Winn instead of Pierre or trade for someone like Gardner, and now we've got enough to pay Matsui. Kenny blew it this year.

 

Your point only makes sense if you don't use your bench very much and the very good player plays all of the time. Players need rest. If the very good player plays all of the time and is tired (physically or mentally) theneven if you make the playoffs he will be useless in the playoffs. Ozzie believes (and I happen to agree) that players need regular rest in order to stay sharp and be healthy for the whole season and into the playoffs. In your scenario, the very good player may get tired especially mentally and his performance would decrease and ther may be better performance by the backup.

 

You probalbly do not agree with this that the better backups on the limited budget make the team better. However it is apparent that Ozzie and KW do and this is why they are building the tram in this manner. The injury discussion also plays a part but since that point was already made and you disagreed with it I thoughI would bring this point up.

[southsider2k5]

Uh, did you read the post? 197 PA vs. 195 PA. And I don't think that's much of a difference when you're talking about a .660 OPS vs. a .509 OPS. BTW, in 2008 Vizquel posted a .550 OPS in the NL in 300 PA. It should be more than obvious that both players are only valuable as defensive subs, and in the case of Lillibridge, as a pinch runner.

 

Edit: Also, instead of using OPS you should have talked about batting average. Over the span I gave, they both have the smae number of XBH and Lillibridge has more walks. Vizquel has a few more hits, probably because he makes a lot more contact and played in a fast infield. That's really the only major difference between the 2 offensively.

 

Yeah, their batting averages were only 90 points apart, that is much closer

[joeynach]

I agree that Vizquel is the better IF defender and have said as much. My point is that there's not an enormous difference in ability between the two especially when you factor in Lillibridge's ability to play CF and pinch run. The difference between the two is definitely not worth $975K when you can't afford to give Matsui $6.5M or Johnson $5.75M.

 

Kenny has made a series of these moves this offseason, overpaying for veteran bench players who aren't a whole lot better than what we could have gotten at the minimum, and by doing that he has priced himself out of the bidding for players he actually needed. A Kroeger/various AAAA players battle for 4th OF/1B could have saved another $1.1M that went to Kotsay; Armstrong/various AAAA player battle for backup C could have saved another $600K that went to Castro, etc. Add this stuff up, then bring in a guy like Winn instead of Pierre or trade for someone like Gardner, and now we've got enough to pay Matsui. Kenny blew it this year.

 

I think there is no guarantee these AAAA players u speak of do anything at all. Remember 2007, Andy Gonzalez, Luis Terroro, this comes to mind...disastrous. No one wants to go back to hoping and praying these guys dont hit .210. Therefore Kotsay's and Vizquels track record for just 600K more speak forthemselves. We already know what we are gonna get and it wound be a 2007 cast of clowns.

 

[soxrwhite]

Ozzie wants to manage. he doesn't want some one who is a DH only. He wants to mix and match in the field and in the batting order.

[joeynach]

Ozzie wants to manage. he doesn't want some one who is a DH only. He wants to mix and match in the field and in the batting order.

 

Exactly, so consider our bench a 5 man bench. 4 bench players and 1 that starts as DH on a rotational basis

[fathom]

Just saw this...and I'm shocked. Castro was awful for the Sox in the field and at the plate.

[everafan]

I'd be disappointed. I would be very disappointed.

 

That's nuts - Thome is probably the best option out there right now. He put up an .864 OPS with the Sox last year. You can't possible think Jones is going to do that. If Jones shows anything he can take over the DH spot against lefties.

[everafan]

Ozzie wants to manage. he doesn't want some one who is a DH only. He wants to mix and match in the field and in the batting order.

 

 

If that's true the Sox are in big trouble. Filling the spot in the batting order that is specifically designed for power hitting with a turnstyle of replacement level garbage will be disatrous.

[witesoxfan]

It will be a Jones and Kotsay DH platoon, its fairly obvious, Ozzie has been saying it all along.

 

Show me one time where he has said that, and I'll stop advocating for the Sox to bring in Thome.

[Vote4Pedro]

just saw this and all i can say is wow.........lets pray nothing happens to AJ this season