The DH Quandry

[SoxAce]

The white sox did not win with Thome. That is the truth. Winning the world sieries is the only win. If you think winning 90 games or a division is winning maybe you belong in wrigley where they accept losing and losers.

 

I don't agree with what you said, but I do agree that wite is a loser.

[Kyyle23]

I don't agree with what you said, but I do agree that wite is a loser.

 

now you are a liar too

[NorthSideSox72]

The white sox did not win with Thome. That is the truth. Winning the world sieries is the only win. If you think winning 90 games or a division is winning maybe you belong in wrigley where they accept losing and losers.

I always love this internet tough fan thing. No one actually thinks that winning a world series is the only thing worth winning, and that anything else - from winning a league pennant down to losing 100 games - is all the same. They aren't the same, and you know it.

 

Furthermore, it also dismisses the fact that the post-season is always a crapshoot. The team that wins it all is the best team AT THAT TIME, which is not necessarily the best overall team that season. So goal #1 should always be, to actually GET to the playoffs. How you line yourself up for them is secondary, because it has to be, since if you don't make the playoffs at all, none of the rest matters.

 

[shago]

Juanny Damon, what's another $12 mil? Why, oh why, did we pick-up Rios again?

[southsider2k5]

Juanny Damon, what's another $12 mil? Why, oh why, did we pick-up Rios again?

 

Even if we threw money at Damon, it still would have left the same giant hole in CF we have had for years.

[shago]

Even if we threw money at Damon, it still would have left the same giant hole in CF we have had for years.

 

You're right - cannot rely on AJ to be the everyday CF'r ... Still Juanny Damon, with his 'Crede/Rowand' clubhouse presence and lefty bat in the DH/rotating spot. Wow....

[Texsox]

Not doing anything is always the easier way. I just have a feeling the goal is Kong at DH.

[witesoxfan]

now you are a liar too

 

and you are now a winner too, climb aboard the wite and Jim Thome train! Woo woo!

 

Juanny Damon, what's another $12 mil? Why, oh why, did we pick-up Rios again?

 

because Rios is going to be a much more valuable player than Johnny Damon this year and in the years coming up. It's been said before, but players have bad years, just like they have good years. There's always that fear in the bottom of my stomach with a guy like Konerko, who has struggled before, or Rios, who struggled last year, but at the end of the day I look at career numbers and realize that last year was a fluke and is very likely not to happen again. If it does happen again and again and again Jamie Navarro moves down the worst contracts in White Sox history list.

[Texsox]

The white sox did not win with Thome. That is the truth. Winning the world sieries is the only win. If you think winning 90 games or a division is winning maybe you belong in wrigley where they accept losing and losers.

 

Then by your definition, you are right, they did not win with Thome.

 

Based on the other 99% of fans and how they define winning, they did win with Thome.

 

It's all in how you define the words. I believe there is a huge difference in lsoing a World Series and losing 100 games. One helps build confidence, craetes higher and higher expectations, and the other breeds distrust, a losing expectation, and a revolving door of players and coaches. I could go on but if you do not see any value in winning a division or even a wild card, that's your opinion and you are welcome to it.

[soxrwhite]

I'd still rather have one world championship than a dozen division championships. Creating high expectations is not winning. Building confidence sounds like a moral victory. Cleveland won how many divisions and went to two world series in the nineties. Did it get them a world championship? Minnesota is respected and competitive but I'd rather have 2005 and finish last every other year than be them. You gotta win it man.............don't settle!

[shago]

because Rios is going to be a much more valuable player than Johnny Damon this year and in the years coming up. It's been said before, but players have bad years, just like they have good years. There's always that fear in the bottom of my stomach with a guy like Konerko, who has struggled before, or Rios, who struggled last year, but at the end of the day I look at career numbers and realize that last year was a fluke and is very likely not to happen again. If it does happen again and again and again Jamie Navarro moves down the worst contracts in White Sox history list.

 

Alex Rios and Juan Pierre are known as two of the biggest mental midgets in MLB. An OF strategy relying on the 'outperformance' of at least two of the trio of Andrew, Juan, and Alex is in-trouble. Carlos, no recovery lock either... They need another player like a Damon, who is consistent and performs year after year. Too many wild cards here...

[Kyyle23]

Alex Rios and Juan Pierre are known as two of the biggest mental midgets in MLB. An OF strategy relying on the 'outperformance' of at least two of the trio of Andrew, Juan, and Alex is in-trouble. Carlos, no recovery lock either... They need another player like a Damon, who is consistent and performs year after year. Too many wild cards here...

 

 

LOL what? Since when?

Edited January 20, 2010 by knightni

[shago]

LOL what? Since when?

 

Read any opinion article in the Toronto or LA papers from the past few years -- to summarize from a Blue Jays fan post announcement of our acquisition of Rios: "Good luck with Rios Chicago, he will frustrate the hell out of you, all the tools, but no toolbox. Hopefully Ozzie can get through to him. He plays without emotion and makes countless mental errors on the basepaths, the field, and at the plate."

 

Harold Reynolds, who's opinion I respect greatly, was openly negative at the time and again pointed to Rios's lack of discipline and mental focus as his biggest detractors.

 

Juan Pierre, ask a Cubs fan

 

Talk to me in October

[Kyyle23]

Read any opinion article in the Toronto or LA papers from the past few years -- to summarize from a Blue Jays fan post announcement of our acquisition of Rios: "Good luck with Rios Chicago, he will frustrate the hell out of you, all the tools, but no toolbox. Hopefully Ozzie can get through to him. He plays without emotion and makes countless mental errors on the basepaths, the field, and at the plate."

 

Harold Reynolds, who's opinion I respect greatly, was openly negative at the time and again pointed to Rios's lack of discipline and mental focus as his biggest detractors.

 

Juan Pierre, ask a Cubs fan

 

Talk to me in October

 

ask a cubs fan? I am far from a Juan Pierre apologist but a mental midget? The guy has had 4 seasons with over 200 hits! And 3 other seasons with 170+ hits! have you looked at his playoff averages? he has hit .304 with a .375 OBP, and with the Cubs he had 15 total bases in 7 games.

 

Im not going to argue with you about Rios because he has to prove himself to the White Sox, but everything in his entire career has pointed that last season was the abberation, not the rule, and a blue jays fan post isnt going to rock my world and make me think he sucks.

 

I really think you should re-examine your definition of mental midget. Mental midgets shrink from pressure situations, and Juan Pierre has risen to the occasion when presented with pressure situations, and considering Rios was a blue jay his entire career save 2 months, he never really has been in a pressure situation

Edited January 20, 2010 by KyYlE23

[shago]

ask a cubs fan? I am far from a Juan Pierre apologist but a mental midget? The guy has had 4 seasons with over 200 hits! And 3 other seasons with 170+ hits! have you looked at his playoff averages? he has hit .304 with a .375 OBP, and with the Cubs he had 15 total bases in 7 games.

 

Im not going to argue with you about Rios because he has to prove himself to the White Sox, but everything in his entire career has pointed that last season was the abberation, not the rule.

 

I really think you should re-examine your definition of mental midget. Mental midgets shrink from pressure situations, and Juan Pierre has risen to the occasion when presented with pressure situations, and considering Rios was a blue jay his entire career save 2 months, he never really has been in a pressure situation

 

Fair enough about Pierre and I shouldn't be throwing mud anyway before the season. Hope Pierre is all that he can be... My point was more to suggest that given CQs health/recovery question marks, having an outfield that relies on comebacks from Andruw Jones and Alex Rios, will not work...

[Kalapse]

The biggest question with Rios has been his passion and dedication to the game. There's a belief that his ridiculous nightlife habits were beginning to catch up with him on the field that and he gained the reputation for being one of those guys who got the big pay day and just stopped caring about the game.

[nastymasty21]

why are we not looking at branyan. His numbers mirror Thome's if not slightly better and he has some versatility in the field ozzie is looking for. He can mash from the left side. is he commanding too much money?

[knightni]

why are we not looking at branyan. His numbers mirror Thome's if not slightly better and he has some versatility in the field ozzie is looking for. He can mash from the left side. is he commanding too much money?

You're assuming that they haven't? I would think that so far, Branyan has out-priced himself from the Sox's budget.

[witesoxfan]

I'd still rather have one world championship than a dozen division championships. Creating high expectations is not winning. Building confidence sounds like a moral victory. Cleveland won how many divisions and went to two world series in the nineties. Did it get them a world championship? Minnesota is respected and competitive but I'd rather have 2005 and finish last every other year than be them. You gotta win it man.............don't settle!

 

To be fair, the Twins have more division and World Series titles in the past 25 years than the White Sox, yet the White Sox have spent more on player personnel and have consistently outdrawn them in the standings.

 

Further, your point was that the White Sox didn't win with Jim Thome, and that only winning a World Series is winning. If during a 10 year period, a team wins a fluke world series and loses 90-110 games in the other nine, and another team wins 10 straight division titles, makes it to 4 World Series, but doesn't win one, which team is the bigger winner of the decade? I'd say the team that showed that they can consistently play at a high level, rather than some fluke. I don't have any teams in mind, but there are enough examples like this out there that someone could come up with one.

[SoxAce]

now you are a liar too

 

No.. I'm not. Pure fact my friend.

[caulfield12]

To be fair, the Twins have more division and World Series titles in the past 25 years than the White Sox, yet the White Sox have spent more on player personnel and have consistently outdrawn them in the standings.

 

Further, your point was that the White Sox didn't win with Jim Thome, and that only winning a World Series is winning. If during a 10 year period, a team wins a fluke world series and loses 90-110 games in the other nine, and another team wins 10 straight division titles, makes it to 4 World Series, but doesn't win one, which team is the bigger winner of the decade? I'd say the team that showed that they can consistently play at a high level, rather than some fluke. I don't have any teams in mind, but there are enough examples like this out there that someone could come up with one.

 

 

The Atlanta Braves would be an example, the Indians in the 90's and early 00's.

 

"Outdrawn" in the standings (overall winning percentage over that time?) or in attendance/revenues during that time?

 

Would you put 2005 in the fluke category or can we say that we played at a consistently high enough level for the last decade to be satisfied? In many ways, the 89-94 White Sox and 05-08 White Sox are fairly similar, with '07 sticking out as the aberrational year.

 

 

[LittleHurt05]

Wheres Dan Bernstein when you need him in this discussion?? HOW DOES IT GET YOU CLOSER TO WINNING A CHAMPIONSHIP????????????

[witesoxfan]

The Atlanta Braves would be an example, the Indians in the 90's and early 00's.

 

"Outdrawn" in the standings (overall winning percentage over that time?) or in attendance/revenues during that time?

 

Would you put 2005 in the fluke category or can we say that we played at a consistently high enough level for the last decade to be satisfied? In many ways, the 89-94 White Sox and 05-08 White Sox are fairly similar, with '07 sticking out as the aberrational year.

 

Braves wouldn't be because they got one in '95. The Indians are a great example, and the Bills in the 90s are another good one.

 

Outdrawn in attendance. Sorry, didn't make that very clear.

 

I would say that in a lot of ways, 2005 was a fluke. That's not to discredit the fact that for 6 of the 7 months during that season they were the best team in baseball, nor is it discrediting the actual structure of the team itself. But Dye putting up a .920 OPS in his final 113 games and becoming a huge part of a rather stagnant overall offense, Jon Garland, Neal Cotts, Cliff Politte, Dustin Hermanson, Bobby Jenks, and Jose Contreras coming out of absolutely nowhere and putting up the numbers they did (I was very optimistic when talking to a friend about Jose Contreras and predicted a 4.25 ERA for the year for him in spring training that season), and the overall clutch performance really does make it a fluke. People don't think about it, but Tadahito Iguchi was the 3rd best offensive player on the team that year.

 

It doesn't change the fact that you can't consider the White Sox a fluke in the 00's though. They won 3 division titles, won 90 or more games 3 times, finished .500 or better 8 times, and averaged 85.7 wins a season. That probably makes them one of the top 10 teams in the decade. The World Series boosts them to a top 6-8 team in the decade (I have Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Phillies, Cardinals, and Dodgers assuredly ahead, and the Twins and Athletics are both arguable), and still really doesn't change the fact that they were, for the decade, winners.