The DH Quandry

[Jordan4life_2007]

The better hitters are those one's who don't make outs and hit for power, hence why this is the DH stereotype. The only reason Ozzie wants this flexible DH bulls*** is because he's clueless. Jim Thome provided this team with more value between 06 and 09 than flexibility ever could have.

 

Flexibility isn't production. Sure it's nice to be able to rest your players but at some point you need to have someone capable of stepping up to the plate and giving you offense. I don't see who that person is from our current DH rotation. Andruw Jones could be the guy, but I'd be surprised if he's ever a good offensive player again.

 

I missed this post as I browsed through this thread. BEST.POST.OF.THREAD. I've never in my life heard of a rotating DH system. I've always considered myself an 'Ozzie guy.' But he doesn't get, or at least shouldn't get, a lifetime pass for 2005. In short, he's getting on my damn nerves.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Jordan4life

[greg775]

I think of Thome as someone who doesnt do a ton with the bat other than go long.

 

Yes but it's OK to have a couple guys like that.

The way this has been portrayed, that Oz is the one who wants this, does put the heat on Oz to win the division this year.

[Leonard Zelig]

I missed this post as I browsed through this thread. BEST.POST.OF.THREAD. I've never in my life heard of a rotating DH system. I've always considered myself an 'Ozzie guy.' But he doesn't get, or at least shouldn't get, a lifetime pass for 2005. In short, he's getting on my damn nerves.

 

So if you and others think that Ozzie is clueless, what about Jerry Reinsdorf & Kenny Williams? They must be absolute buffoons to allow him to manage the team they own & run.

[Eminor3rd]

I think of Thome as someone who doesnt do a ton with the bat other than go long.

 

Thome's .404 career OBP and 1600+ walks respectfully disagree.

 

If we want a common denominator of offensive production between power guys and contact guys, it has to be total bases. Thome's OPS, even last year, was .847. Kotsay's was .717, Jones' was .782.

 

There's simply no way this team isn't better with Thome than by rotating bench players as DH. There is no advantage to that, at all. At all. It's a ludicrous argument.

 

"Oh, but Ozzie gets the flexibility to use players in different situations."

 

How does he not ALWAYS have that? He can rotate players in however he likes, whether we actually have a STARTING player at DH or not. If he wants to start Jones/Kotsay/Lillibridge at DH one day, he can! If he wants to pinch hit Jones for Thome one day with a lefty on the mound, he can! Why not have someone GOOD there most of the time?

[YonderLaroche]

I'm thinking Jones/Kotsay platoon... with the arb raises payroll is around 100 million already, right? Maybe Thome for cheap, but I'm doubting it because there's not a roster spot either.

[Quin]

I'm thinking Jones/Kotsay platoon... with the arb raises payroll is around 100 million already, right? Maybe Thome for cheap, but I'm doubting it because there's not a roster spot either.

 

We can gladly show Nix the door.

[Princess Dye]

Thome's .404 career OBP and 1600+ walks respectfully disagree.

 

This was in response to me saying Thome doesnt do tons with the bat besides hitting a HR. How is a walk something you do with the bat? It's the opposite of that.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Princess Dye

[iamshack]

This was in response to me saying Thome doesnt do tons with the bat besides hitting a HR. How is a walk something you do with the bat? It's the opposite of that.

Honestly, I don't care if he does it with Jedi mind tricks, if it helps us win on the baseball field, what the hell does it matter?

[Eminor3rd]

This was in response to me saying Thome doesnt do tons with the bat besides hitting a HR. How is a walk something you do with the bat? It's the opposite of that.

 

A walk is something you do at-bat that helps your team's offense tremendously.

[Princess Dye]

To both of you: absolutely correct. But not at all on point. I was misquoted. I said I want a guy who, aside from power, is more useful w/ the bat than just homeruns.

 

Walks have nothing to do w/ my original point. Never even mentioned them in it.

 

 

Edited January 18, 2010 by Princess Dye

[qwerty]

This was in response to me saying Thome doesnt do tons with the bat besides hitting a HR. How is a walk something you do with the bat? It's the opposite of that.

 

This is one of the sillier things i have seen lately. Mostly based off the fact that a players bat comes into play much more than you apparently can ever imagine (every single at-bat) when a walk transpires. Some of the basic reasons are pitcher being worried of the ball being knocked out of the park, a hitters plate discipline, a hitters zone judgement, a hitter being able to predict better than the average bear what the next pitch will be, plus numerous other reasons. Walks are not freebies, not by a long shot, they are earned just like anything else. Abberations can and do occur (wild pitcher who cannot find the zone (miguel asencio), whether it be for an at-bat, a game, week, or the whole season. Walks and how they occur regress to the mean just like anything else. Thome will be sorely missed if the sox do not find a replacement, and he will end up being missed sooner rather than later, unless if a number of unexpected events occur.

 

To both of you: absolutely correct. But not at all on point. I was misquoted. I said I want a guy who, aside from power, is more useful w/ the bat than just homeruns.

 

Walks have nothing to do w/ my original point. Never even mentioned them in it.

 

What exactly do you mean by more useful with the bat than just home runs? Seriously, i don't have the slightest clue. I think the type of player you are looking for is pretty far out of our reach.

 

Anyway, you know this off-season has been bad when we still are, and are essentially forced to be talking about thome being our dh. Trust me, it's not a knock against thome. But if the sox truly want to make any sort of run for it this season, it should have never come to the point of us being dhless on this date, january 18th. Then again they very well may being overrating what they have on their hands exactly, and fully believe they are set. It' more than likely is gonna come back and bite them, hard. I really think/believe they are looking to make their push in 2011, and whatever happens this season happens, as long as they are semi competitive we should be in good shape.

Edited January 19, 2010 by qwerty

[ThunderBolt]

A Kotsay/Jones platoon reduces our power projections from 184 (with Jones being the sole DH) to about 173 homeruns. Bill James has that platoon producing 14 bombs. Once again i'm not slavish to these, but that's not good. We need to get an actual DH here, the kind of guy that is a lock to get his numbers year-to-year. Thome's that guy, thick or thin, he's going to pop around 25 for us.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Thunderbolt

[soxrwhite]

I'm sure we would like a five tool player at every position including DH. I think the differing opinions here are more on the definition or type of DH than on individual names. Thome is a HOF player and did a great job for us, no doubt. I think the team wants to move on to a platoon and different approach at DH. I know there were alot of other factors but we did not win with Thome. Give Ozzie his rope and let him hang himself or prove he can really manage.

[witesoxfan]

I'm sure we would like a five tool player at every position including DH. I think the differing opinions here are more on the definition or type of DH than on individual names. Thome is a HOF player and did a great job for us, no doubt. I think the team wants to move on to a platoon and different approach at DH. I know there were alot of other factors but we did not win with Thome. Give Ozzie his rope and let him hang himself or prove he can really manage.

 

That's a BS statement and you know it. In 2006, the pitching staff took a s*** and the entire team ERA jumped by a run (and they still won 90 games). In 2007, the White Sox depended on Darin Erstad to be a competent player. In 2008, they won the division (and 89 games). In 2009, the White Sox got like 2000 plate appearances - which is about 3 full, 162 game seasons - of an OPS of around .625-.650, meaning the offense around everyone other than Jim Thome was bad. The fact of the matter is, the White Sox DID win with Jim Thome, and saying otherwise is flat out lying.

 

I also don't want to give Ozzie his rope because quite frankly his NL style of managing costs the Sox runs in the end. He's been given his slap hitting, base stealing LFer. Now the team should get a DH that can hit the ball a long ways and do it often.

[bmags]

Ahh Miguel Asencio, thank you for reminding me. Haha, that was brutal.

[soxrwhite]

I might be mistaken but I'm not a liar. You go too far. We are on the same team remember. Can't some one disagree and still be loyal?

[witesoxfan]

I might be mistaken but I'm not a liar. You go too far. We are on the same team remember. Can't some one disagree and still be loyal?

 

"(The White Sox) never won with Jim Thome" is a lie.

[Eminor3rd]

To both of you: absolutely correct. But not at all on point. I was misquoted. I said I want a guy who, aside from power, is more useful w/ the bat than just homeruns.

 

Walks have nothing to do w/ my original point. Never even mentioned them in it.

 

I'm saying that walks should not be ignored. They're almost as good as singles. The ONLY reason they aren't as good as singles is because they don't score runners from second. It's been shown time and time again that OBP is more important to wins than batting average, meaning that in most instances it's a better measure of value. The only time OBP is diminished, in terms of run production, is when your SLG is super low. But Thome's is huge! The combination is deadly. I mean the guy has around100 walks every year. He's either getting on base or knocking guys in. When he gets out, he either strikes out (no GIDP) or flies out (potential sac fly).

 

The walks cannot be ignored, and are one of the biggest reasons that Thome will bring astronomically more value to the team as DH than a Jones/Kotsay platoon.

[Quin]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4012/427652...c83e14339_o.jpg

 

So, showed this too my brother, and Ozzie has always been his favorite Sox personality ever. However, his reaction, priceless.

 

i dislike this comic very much. it makes ozzie look like a buffoon. ozzie, even before winning a championship for my team, has always had my unconditional trust...if he thinks dh by committee is a good idea, why can't they try it before people bag on it? how many world championship rings does the artist of the comic have?

[soxrwhite]

The white sox did not win with Thome. That is the truth. Winning the world sieries is the only win. If you think winning 90 games or a division is winning maybe you belong in wrigley where they accept losing and losers.

[Eminor3rd]

The white sox did not win with Thome. That is the truth. Winning the world sieries is the only win. If you think winning 90 games or a division is winning maybe you belong in wrigley where they accept losing and losers.

 

Right, so let's just play with bench players. We'll win for sure.

[joejoedairy]

It sucks to think about now, but wouldnt brandon allen be just about the perfect guy for the dh spot this sesaon? lefty, power, not a clog on the basepaths and hes young/cheap. guess i should probably get over that though

[Quin]

The white sox did not win with Thome. That is the truth. Winning the world sieries is the only win. If you think winning 90 games or a division is winning maybe you belong in wrigley where they accept losing and losers.

 

...seriously? I love bashing the Cubs too, but under this logic we never won with Big Frank as a full time player.

 

We didn't win with Kotsay or Jones either.

 

In fact, we won with this guy

 

 

If the pitching staff hadn't crapped itself in '06, we probably would have won then.

 

At this point in the market, Thome gives you the best option.

 

Edit: Brandon Allen is not ready for the majors. K's too much right now and doesn't hit for a high enough average.

 

Not saying he can't get better however.

Edited January 19, 2010 by Quinarvy

[witesoxfan]

The white sox did not win with Thome. That is the truth. Winning the world sieries is the only win. If you think winning 90 games or a division is winning maybe you belong in wrigley where they accept losing and losers.

 

Wow, OK.

[iamshack]

Qwerty, I am still waiting for your personal choice for our DH slot, my friend?