Which team did you have higher expectations for?

[RockRaines]

2006.

 

I have no expectations for 2010. This isn't a playoff team....Good starting pitching, average pen, average lineup doesn't make you a playoff team.

I think our pen is better than avg in every spot but LOOGY to be honest. We have a good closer, two dynamic set up guys and a good enough long man. Our lineup is not good however.

[RME JICO]

Just curious what people here think with regards to which Sox team they had higher expectations for, going into the seasons of 2006 and 2010

 

I have a feeling the majority of people here will initially say 2006 due to the 05 WS, and addition of Thome

 

However after thinking about it for a while, I'm leaning towards 2010 as I think it should be a better team overall, with better talent in the bullpen, starting lineup, and rotation.

We should also have an overall easier time winning the division as I don't think there will be a 3-team race going into late September

The addition of Peavy, excitement surrounding Gordon Beckham, and having a solid team defense for the first time since 2004-2005 has me pretty anxious

I believe we have a lot more question marks going into 2010 than we did going into 2006. I felt that we were actually better going into 2006 than we were in 2005. I can't say the same thing about this year. It is awesome to have Peavy added to the staff, but we never added the bat I expected us to add.

[caulfield12]

Sounds to me that a lot of people here don't even have "high" expectations for this team, just "reasonable expectations"

 

I don't see how anyone who pays attention to what other teams in this division are doing, can say we aren't the favorite as of right now to win this division

 

Minnesota has Mauer, Morneau and to a lesser extent Kubel coming off a career year, moving outside of the metrodome (this fact seems to slowly become less acknowledged, and it's a huge factor in how their team will perform). They also have a starting rotation full of question marks. Which Nick Blackburn is the real one? Baker and Slowey are huge question marks as well. How will their team defense be affected by playing outdoors, especially in April and May when it's still cold

 

Their bullpen also has question marks, outside of Nathan

 

Detroit is trying to do what Kenny did last year, and that's rebuild on the fly. Dumping CG for cheap talent who may or may not perform well, given a starting position, and losing Rodney for Valverde. Their starting rotation is less questionable than Minnesota's due to having a true ace, and possible legit #2 , but Verlander (RHP) > Porcello (RHP) > ??? (Scherzer) > ??? (Bonine) > ??? (Bonderman) is going to most likely force their offense to score a lot of runs to win games, something we hopefully won't have to do

 

 

You do realize the Twins are a coin flip, Thome homer, Griffey throw and Danks outing away from winning 6 ALCD championships in a decade?

 

Dismiss them at your own peril.

 

As far as the Twins' pitching, the fact that they made the playoffs without a true ace (Baker was the closest) should scare everyone in the division. Before, they had Santana, the best pitcher in the AL at the time, and a healthy Liriano breaking off nasty sliders and dominating.

 

Baker is not a huge question mark, any more than Danks or Gavin Floyd are. Blackburn is very solid, and clutch. Yeah, Slowey's a bit like Sonnanstine, but never count him out, either. And a healthy Glen Perkins is a very talented pitcher. Liriano always has a chance to bounce back now in the 2nd full year after surgery.

 

The Twins are always unearthing minor leaguers like Denard Span who can actually contribute at nearly an All-Star level. Plus they have Revere in the minors, and the odds are that D. Young might actually have a breakout season without the pressure of having to fight for a job or playing time. And if the key to their bullpen, Neshek, can return from surgery, they're a much different team innings 7-9.

 

 

[Rex Kickass]

I thought 2006 gave us a great shot to win the World Series again. By the all star break, it looked a lot dicier. It wasn't that the team looked tired it's more that they lacked the fire to have a fully successful season.

 

I think we have the right pieces together to compete and win the Central this year.

[Buehrlesque]

The Sun-Times backpage that said " Stop Believin' " with Thome, Dye, and Konerko standing at the top of the dug out is the most disappointing one I ever saw.

I remember that headline and photo. Even when they started to struggle, and first lost the division lead, then the Wildcard lead, I believed in that '06 team right up until the very last second. I'm still surprised they never recovered.

 

Without adding a solid bat to the line up, this '10 team doesn't have the same expectation at the '06 group. They might well win the division, but they won't be a prohibitive favorite.

 

The lack of expectations could all be for the best though- Sox teams don't seem to perform well when they're burdened with high expectations. They're three most recent playoff runs- '00, '05 and '08, came as relative underdogs from obscurity. Their big expectations seasons- '03 and '06 most notably, maybe parts of '04 and '09 also, ended in meltdowns.

 

Under the radar!

[witesoxfan]

You do realize the Twins are a coin flip, Thome homer, Griffey throw and Danks outing away from winning 6 ALCD championships in a decade?

 

Dismiss them at your own peril.

The Twins were also 2 wins against 4th place (and last place at that time) Kansas City at home away from clinching the division. And the Sox were without Quentin, Contreras, and Crede for their playoff push. And the Sox also had to beat Cleveland AND Detroit to even get to game 163.

 

Or, the Sox were a simple managerial decision away from the final game of the 3-game sweep in the Metrodome away from keeping the game tied. If Konerko is guarding the line in the 8th inning, like he's supposed to be doing in a 1-run game with a runner on 1st, Span's triple becomes an easy 3-unassisted putout, or a 3-6 putout at 2nd.

 

Pick whatever route you like. The Sox didn't have an easy road to the division title, and they earned it.

 

Don't act like the Twins had it hard.

 

As far as the Twins' pitching, the fact that they made the playoffs without a true ace (Baker was the closest) should scare everyone in the division. Before, they had Santana, the best pitcher in the AL at the time, and a healthy Liriano breaking off nasty sliders and dominating.

 

Don't mention that they also had one of the best offenses in the league. They scored like 825 runs with the MVP on their side (from May on) and a sudden resurgence/breakout from both Michael Cuddyer and Jason Kubel. Their bullpen was also one of the worst in the leagues.

 

And I don't think Liriano can even be considered as a threat at this point. He's been fully removed from TJ surgery, and something about his near 6.00 ERA doesn't really scare me. He can't throw the slider like he used to because it's either going to f*** up his elbow further or he simply can't throw it. The Twins would be smart (and I imagine they will actually follow through on this) to make him into a reliever, because then his velocity is actually a plus and not merely something that just looks sexy.

 

Baker is not a huge question mark, any more than Danks or Gavin Floyd are. Blackburn is very solid, and clutch. Yeah, Slowey's a bit like Sonnanstine, but never count him out, either. And a healthy Glen Perkins is a very talented pitcher. Liriano always has a chance to bounce back now in the 2nd full year after surgery.

 

Baker is good. Blackburn is good, but gets lit up by good offenses. Pavano put up an ERA over 5 last year. But then who? Brian Duensing? Glen Perkins? Jeff Manship? Anthony Swarzak? Kevin Slowey? Francisco Liriano? The back of their rotation looks like something a 3rd place team would trot out there.

 

The Twins are always unearthing minor leaguers like Denard Span who can actually contribute at nearly an All-Star level. Plus they have Revere in the minors, and the odds are that D. Young might actually have a breakout season without the pressure of having to fight for a job or playing time. And if the key to their bullpen, Neshek, can return from surgery, they're a much different team innings 7-9.

 

Denard Span was a 1st round pick. As was Michael Cuddyer, and Morneau was a 3rd round pick. The fact of the matter is that the Twins development is far better than most teams in the league and that their scouting really isn't all-world.

 

I also don't think that "odds are" Delmon Young will have a breakout season. He's had over 1800 plate appearances in the major leagues, his defense is still awful, and he's shown no type of power whatsoever in the major leagues. That doesn't mean he can't get better, since he's only 24, but I would say that he's probably going to end up being the same player he is.

 

The only reason the Sox have to worry about the Twins is because they are good. They play good defense but traded their best defensive player away for a good shortstop in Hardy, they have 2 very good hitters in Mauer and Morneau, and have several other players who are good but not great in Kubel, Cuddyer, and Span.

 

If anything, it seems like you are giving the Twins far too much credit. They have just as many question marks as the White Sox do, but I would say the Sox main problem - the lineup - can be fixed pretty easily. I would say the Sox are a heavy favorite to win the division, even with a poor offense.

Edited January 17, 2010 by witesoxfan

[greg775]

We should also have an overall easier time winning the division as I don't think there will be a 3-team race going into late September

The addition of Peavy, excitement surrounding Gordon Beckham, and having a solid team defense for the first time since 2004-2005 has me pretty anxious

 

My expectations for this year are not high at all. We have great starting pitching and a ton of question marks.

I don't know why you think our defense is assured of being very good.

I love some of our players; think we have a lot of question marks.

[SoxAce]

And I don't think Liriano can even be considered as a threat at this point. He's been fully removed from TJ surgery, and something about his near 6.00 ERA doesn't really scare me. He can't throw the slider like he used to because it's either going to f*** up his elbow further or he simply can't throw it. The Twins would be smart (and I imagine they will actually follow through on this) to make him into a reliever, because then his velocity is actually a plus and not merely something that just looks sexy.

 

I would not sleep on that guy just yet. Usually it takes a full two years to really get back to pitching like you should from TJ. The main thing most Twins fans will tell you about Liriano is he lost his command (especially on his fastball, which BTW, dipped in velocity as well) last season. The key for Liriano is if he can throw his change-up like he once did. Yes he won't have that slider to throw to as often (though he still throws it, but very limited in winter ball) and of course, which is usual baseball 101 for pitchers, is he has to find and locate his fastball. Reports say he's throwing a little harder in winter ball than he was all of last season. (and he could possibly get stronger in his arm and velocity come the spring or the season) But if he can find that changeup, not to mention that extra 3-5 MPH off that fastball he lost and LOCATE it (not to mention being very unlucky last season looking at his higher than usual BABIP) he should be fine. Bill James and Chone have him at solid/serviceable this comming season. We'll all see personally since he is in our division.

Edited January 17, 2010 by SoxAce

[witesoxfan]

I would not sleep on that guy just yet. Usually it takes a full two years to really get back to pitching like you should from TJ. The main thing most Twins fans will tell you about Liriano is he lost his command (especially on his fastball, which BTW, dipped in velocity as well) last season. The key for Liriano is if he can throw his change-up like he once did. Yes he won't have that slider to throw to as often (though he still throws it, but very limited in winter ball) and of course, which is usual baseball 101 for pitchers, is he has to find and locate his fastball. Reports say he's throwing a little harder in winter ball than he was all of last season. (and he could possibly get stronger in his arm and velocity come the spring or the season) But if he can find that changeup, not to mention that extra 3-5 MPH off that fastball he lost and LOCATE it (not to mention being very unlucky last season looking at his higher than usual BABIP) he should be fine. Bill James and Chone have him at solid/serviceable this comming season. We'll all see personally since he is in our division.

 

He's not Johan, and his changeup is not his bread-and-butter. Francisco Liriano was and still is completely dependent upon a slider that moves 18 inches horizontally and 4 inches vertically, and if he wants to get that back, then he is a ticking time-bomb, because they way he threw his slider was the reason his elbow blew in the first place. He becomes a good starter again if he can get the previous two measurements to even 12x2, given location (because the velocity is there...I watched him pitch all summer, he's around 93-96 with his fastball) and he can locate. Without his slider, he is bound to become JC Romero with worse stuff.

[nickofypres]

06 no doubt. If we get a legit power bat though, I think my vote would change.

[caulfield12]

Denard Span was a 1st round pick. As was Michael Cuddyer, and Morneau was a 3rd round pick. The fact of the matter is that the Twins development is far better than most teams in the league and that their scouting really isn't all-world.

 

I also don't think that "odds are" Delmon Young will have a breakout season. He's had over 1800 plate appearances in the major leagues, his defense is still awful, and he's shown no type of power whatsoever in the major leagues. That doesn't mean he can't get better, since he's only 24, but I would say that he's probably going to end up being the same player he is.

 

The only reason the Sox have to worry about the Twins is because they are good. They play good defense but traded their best defensive player away for a good shortstop in Hardy, they have 2 very good hitters in Mauer and Morneau, and have several other players who are good but not great in Kubel, Cuddyer, and Span.

 

If anything, it seems like you are giving the Twins far too much credit. They have just as many question marks as the White Sox do, but I would say the Sox main problem - the lineup - can be fixed pretty easily. I would say the Sox are a heavy favorite to win the division, even with a poor offense.

 

 

 

First of all, it would be nice if the White Sox could develop anyone that was CLOSE to the 20th pick in the first round. Most of our successes (Rowand/Crede/Buehrle) were lower picks too, heck, you can even put the likes of Chris Young or Brandon McCarthy on that list, too.

 

Where they have been clearly better than the White Sox is with developing pitching internally, and that's part of their organizational philosophy, the so-called "first pitch" strike (simple enough?) ideal that's drummed into their draft picks from instructional and short-season leagues.

 

Without the four way rotation (Cuddyer/Gomez/Young/Kubel), you're going to lose some defense but probably gain overall in OPS when you switch Hardy for Punto/Cabrera over a full season...and it's just a hunch, but I think that now that all the rumors of Young being traded are dissipating, he might settle down and start to play like Hawk thinks he's capable of. He's still 3-4 years away from his supposed prime, and his numbers and impact were much better overall in the second half of the season. (I'll just put it this way, would you be willing to bet your house or life savings on Alex Rios having a better season this year than Young, probably not...)

 

And our bullpen is still a HUGE question mark...a lot of things have to break right for us to win the division without a DH. Yes, theoretically that's easier to fix than finding an everyday CFer (we have failed in that area four seasons in a row!), so we'll just have to wait and see if it's Kotsay/Jones on April 1st.

 

While they do have question marks at the back end of the rotation, they have more depth. If we lost one or two starters (and there's concern automatically how long Garcia will last based on the past 2-3 years), who would we go to after Hudson? Torres? Hynick?

 

Basically, both teams are flawed, but the Twins are a more balanced team overall at this point.

 

Until the White Sox or Tigers knock them off, they should still be the favorites for the division.

Edited January 17, 2010 by caulfield12

[NorthSideSox72]

2006 by a long shot, for me.

 

But I do think the 2010 team is the marginal favorite to win the ALC, which looks very weak to me all around. Starting rotation looks like one of the best in baseball, bullpen looks better than most teams, defense should improve (but still not be great)... but offensively, I see the team as pretty much dead even as it stands now, against last year's offense. Maybe even fell back a bit. Unless we get Thome or a similar bat, in which case I think the Sox become clear favorites for a division title.

 

[greg775]

Why don't we just sign Thome? Our lineup needs some thunder.

 

Oz is gonna be the guy who takes the fall for not wanting a full time power hitting DH.

Edited January 17, 2010 by greg775

[Jordan4life_2007]

2006 without hesitation. And I wasn't one that was naive enough to think that the pitching staff would be able to duplicate what they did in 2005 (although I never thought guys like Buehrle, Cotts, Politte would fall off a cliff like they did). But I believed with the addition of Thome and a very much upgraded bench, that any drop-off in pitching would be neutralized by a big spike in offensive production. And though the first half of 2006, that proved to be the case. But when the offense fell off during the second half (save for Dye), our fate was basically sealed. Still hurts me to this day we couldn't find someway to get in. Even with the struggles of Buehrle and Contreras in the second half, I would've liked our chances against anybody from the '06 playoff field.

[Ranger]

The Sox's bullpen aside from 1 lefty reliever is a giant clusterf***. Konerko is nothing special at 1B and another year older, which Alexei is the real Alexei at the plate? Can he improve on his fielding at SS? Can Mark Teahen hit or field? Because he hasn't done either in 4 years. Can Quentin stay healthy or even come close to the production we saw in '08? Does Alex Rios really give a s*** about baseball? can he crack a .700 OPS in 2010? They're probably looking at a .325-.330 OBP slap hitter at the top with one of the worst arms in the game, that should be a step back from the production of the '09 leadoff man. Right now the Sox have to be slated for some of the worst production out of the DH spot of any team in the AL, that's not good when the rest of your offense is one big question mark. Can Gordon Beckham avoid a sophomore slump? Will AJ's defense become a liability in 2010? He's been toeing the line the past few years and he's now getting into his mid-30's and has logged nearly 9000 innings back there over the past 8 years. Has the team defense been anymore than marginally improved from 2009?

 

It's all about how you look at things.

 

The bullpen is most certainly not in as bad a shape as you're making it sound. They're actually in pretty good shape, and with their rotation, the pen shouldn't factor in as much as it did last year anyway.

 

Everything else in your post is doomsday stuff. Not worth freaking out over it.

 

 

we need anomalies to win the division, and all of them on the good side.

 

No they don't. They just need guys to perform at their normal abilities.

 

 

I watched a bit on ESPN BBTN last night and Buster Olney says the AL Central is weak and the Sox have done little or nothing to get better. They are old and added older players to the mix. He thinks Detroit might be the team to beat this season

 

Buster Olney isn't paying attention. Their bench got older, but who cares? It's a bench, and they're all signed on 1-year deals. More than 60% of the everyday players are under 30.

[Kalapse]

The bullpen is most certainly not in as bad a shape as you're making it sound. They're actually in pretty good shape, and with their rotation, the pen shouldn't factor in as much as it did last year anyway.

 

Everything else in your post is doomsday stuff. Not worth freaking out over it.

You missed the point entirely.

[Ranger]

You missed the point entirely.

 

Care to explain it better then? Because it sure doesn't seem like I missed anything..

[Steve9347]

We won the World Series and added Jim Thome and Javier Vazquez.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Steve9347

[jphat007]

2010 offense is going to be bad, even with some bounce back years. It is 2006 by a mile.

[jphat007]

The bullpen is most certainly not in as bad a shape as you're making it sound. They're actually in pretty good shape, and with their rotation, the pen shouldn't factor in as much as it did last year anyway.

 

Everything else in your post is doomsday stuff. Not worth freaking out over it.

 

 

 

 

No they don't. They just need guys to perform at their normal abilities.

 

 

 

 

Buster Olney isn't paying attention. Their bench got older, but who cares? It's a bench, and they're all signed on 1-year deals. More than 60% of the everyday players are under 30.

 

LOL. Those "bench players" could end up starting a bunch of games unfortunately.

[Kalapse]

Care to explain it better then? Because it sure doesn't seem like I missed anything..

I was responding to a post listing the reasons (including a few hyperbolic) why the Twins will struggle in 2010 with an even more negative outlook of the 2010 Sox. I was proving a point.

[greg775]

They're actually in pretty good shape, and with their rotation, the pen shouldn't factor in as much as it did last year anyway.

 

That's what I'm hoping as well.

If our starters can consistently go 7 innings ... wow that would make our pen so much better.

This five and six inning crap is a different story.

Please give us seven strong innings, Sox starters!

[Kalapse]

Buster Olney isn't paying attention. Their bench got older, but who cares? It's a bench, and they're all signed on 1-year deals. More than 60% of the everyday players are under 30.

Beckham (23), Ramirez (28), Teahen (28), Quentin (27), Rios (29) = 5/9 = 56%

 

Konerko (34), Pierzynski (33), Pierre (32), Kotsay/Jones (34/33) = 4/9 = 44%

 

Am I missing something here?

 

Though, questionable math aside, I do agree.

[Ranger]

LOL. Those "bench players" could end up starting a bunch of games unfortunately.

 

Not enough to matter.

 

 

I was responding to a post listing the reasons (including a few hyperbolic) why the Twins will struggle in 2010 with an even more negative outlook of the 2010 Sox. I was proving a point.

 

Fair enough.

 

Beckham (23), Ramirez (28), Teahen (28), Quentin (27), Rios (29) = 5/9 = 56%

 

Konerko (34), Pierzynski (33), Pierre (32), Kotsay/Jones (34/33) = 4/9 = 44%

 

Am I missing something here?

 

Though, questionable math aside, I do agree.

 

Yes, you're missing 3 of the 5 starting pitchers that are under 30 (60%). And that it's actually 5 of 8 everyday players, not 5 of 9, we know of (we still do not know who the DH will be for sure). That's 63%. And even if they do sign an older DH, or keep the Kotsay/Jones duo, it's still going to be 60% of the everyday club that's under 30.

 

If you're going to nitpick to try to make some sort of point, make it count.