The Jim Thome Saga Ends

[NorthSideSox72]

why is that? last yr, which was the final yr in the dome, they were in the race till the last game of the season, and they still only drew 2.3mil. i know people will want to see the new stadium this yr but the weather does get bad there and if they arent good, people wont go. even when theyre good, its still hard for them to draw fans

Its a new stadium, that pretty much guarantees a year or two of bigger than usual crowds.

 

[caulfield12]

 

 

Well, just add Thome to Guerrier, Cabrera and Crede. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery?

 

It really sucks that we're just one player away and yet KW isn't in any hurry to do anything about it...maybe they've simply determined that bringing in the likes of Damon, Guerrero or Matsui wouldn't have affected season ticket sales in the least, but I find that hard to imagine.

 

The big risk is if the team starts off slowly again in the first two months, and they will consequently have to fight a season-long battle to get the fans to jump on the bandwagon and start coming out in droves (in terms of walk-ups as well as split season tickets) to support the team. Or if any of the starting pitchers go down, although at least we have Hudson for insurance, so we're in decent shape there. Now if we have to go to Torres or Hynick or someone like that, well, I'm crossing my fingers it doesn't come down to that.

 

As far as the Twins' stadium goes, there's very little doubt they will draw at least 3,000,000, if not more. The ONLY thing that might hurt that franchise is when/if it comes out that Mauer won't sign a long-term extension, but I think both sides are smart enough they wouldn't let that become a public relations distraction during the season.

 

 

[caulfield12]

why is that? last yr, which was the final yr in the dome, they were in the race till the last game of the season, and they still only drew 2.3mil. i know people will want to see the new stadium this yr but the weather does get bad there and if they arent good, people wont go. even when theyre good, its still hard for them to draw fans

 

 

But they've also outdrawn the White Sox for most of the last three years, at least the last two...when the White Sox should have had a five year window of opportunity after the World Series. Unfortunately, the final two months of 2006 and the 2007 season put a halt to that momentum quickly enough.

 

Of course, you can come back at me with the fact that the White Sox have the fifth most expensive tickets (despite the so-called "blue collar" reputation) and that the revenues generated by the club by parking, souvenirs and media rights wipes out any advantage the Twins might have.

 

What it definitely should give them is even more flexibility the next two seasons to add talent around their core, if the ownership group decides to be a little more aggressive and not so cautious as under Carl Pohlad. You will never see them spend like the White Sox from 06-10, but something in the $75-80 milion range, maybe even $85, wouldn't be completely shocking if they can keep Mauer in the fold.

[witesoxfan]

But they've also outdrawn the White Sox for most of the last three years, at least the last two...when the White Sox should have had a five year window of opportunity after the World Series. Unfortunately, the final two months of 2006 and the 2007 season put a halt to that momentum quickly enough.

 

Last year was the first year the Twins outdrew the White Sox in attendance since 2003, and I would say a lot of that has to do with the White Sox raising ticket prices and the Metrodome being in its final season.

[PeavyTime]

You are proving your ignorance and raw lack of knowledge in regards to baseball.

 

You're right. Forgetting McGwire was on the A's 20 years ago shows how little I know.

[witesoxfan]

You're right. Forgetting McGwire was on the A's 20 years ago shows how little I know.

 

Yeah, OK. Maybe the Sox should resign Darin Erstad and Timo Perez too because they won a World Series. And s***, I'd probably be better than Thome too because I'm 16 years younger than him. I'd be twice the player he is.

Edited January 23, 2010 by witesoxfan

[PeavyTime]

Yeah, OK. Maybe the Sox should resign Darin Erstad and Timo Perez too because they won a World Series. And s***, I'd probably be better than Thome too because I'm 16 years younger than him. I'd be twice the player he is.

 

You are proving my point buddy. Teams who sign these "big boppers" and neglect the pitching staff don't win squat.

[NorthSideSox72]

You are proving my point buddy. Teams who sign these "big boppers" and neglect the pitching staff don't win squat.

Newsflash - the 2005 Sox won on the back of 200 home runs, among the league leaders in that category.

 

[witesoxfan]

You are proving my point buddy. Teams who sign these "big boppers" and neglect the pitching staff don't win squat.

 

Home run and OPS numbers of the past 10 World Series champions

 

2000 Yankees - 205, .804

2001 Diamondbacks - 208, .783

2002 Angels - 152, .773

2003 Marlins - 157, .754

2004 Red Sox - 222, .832

2005 White Sox - 200, .747

2006 Cardinals - 184, .769

2007 Red Sox - 166, .806

2008 Phillies - 214, .770

2009 Yankees - 244, .839

 

Teams who sign these "big boppers" win World Series titles. The team average for home runs in a season was 195, the average OPS was .788, only 4 teams in the past 10 years hit fewer than 200 homers (and 184 isn't bad), and only 2 had a team OPS below .769. The White Sox actually had the worst offense of any team to win the World Series in the last 10 years, and not only did they have one of the best pitching staffs within the team's past 25 years, they also had one of the most impressive postseason pitching performances in recent postseason history. They are also one of only like 2 teams to ever go 11-1 in the postseason too.

 

I think you can take your straw man argument somewhere else.

[PeavyTime]

Newsflash - the 2005 Sox won on the back of 200 home runs, among the league leaders in that category.

 

The White Sox won the world series because of incredible pitching which included a ridiculous 2.55 ERA in the postseason.

 

They Sox then hit 236 homers in '06. 36 more than when they won it all. They must have won it all again right? They didn't? What was different? Oh yeah, their pitching SUCKED!

[witesoxfan]

The White Sox won the world series because of incredible pitching which included a ridiculous 2.55 ERA in the postseason.

 

They Sox then hit 236 homers in '06. 36 more than when they won it all. They must have won it all again right? They didn't? What was different? Oh yeah, their pitching SUCKED!

 

Because a lot of guys reverted to their career norms or worse, and they felt the burden of pitching deep into the season the previous year.

 

The 2005 White Sox have 4 starters with a season ERA under 4. The 2006 White Sox DIDN'T have ONE starter with an ERA under 4. The big 4 from the previous season returned, and they brought in Javier Vazquez to be the 5th starter (and he was an adequate 5th starter, even if more was expected from him).

 

They didn't neglect the pitching staff.

[Melissa1334]

The White Sox won the world series because of incredible pitching which included a ridiculous 2.55 ERA in the postseason.

 

They Sox then hit 236 homers in '06. 36 more than when they won it all. They must have won it all again right? They didn't? What was different? Oh yeah, their pitching SUCKED!

i have to agree with you. although the teams hit for a lot of power, pitching was still number one. pitching 1, hrs 2

[PeavyTime]

Home run and OPS numbers of the past 10 World Series champions

 

2000 Yankees - 205, .804

2001 Diamondbacks - 208, .783

2002 Angels - 152, .773

2003 Marlins - 157, .754

2004 Red Sox - 222, .832

2005 White Sox - 200, .747

2006 Cardinals - 184, .769

2007 Red Sox - 166, .806

2008 Phillies - 214, .770

2009 Yankees - 244, .839

 

Teams who sign these "big boppers" win World Series titles. The team average for home runs in a season was 195, the average OPS was .788, only 4 teams in the past 10 years hit fewer than 200 homers (and 184 isn't bad), and only 2 had a team OPS below .769. The White Sox actually had the worst offense of any team to win the World Series in the last 10 years, and not only did they have one of the best pitching staffs within the team's past 25 years, they also had one of the most impressive postseason pitching performances in recent postseason history. They are also one of only like 2 teams to ever go 11-1 in the postseason too.

 

I think you can take your straw man argument somewhere else.

 

Are you making the case for me or you?? That pretty much sums up everything I've said.

 

[PeavyTime]

Because a lot of guys reverted to their career norms or worse, and they felt the burden of pitching deep into the season the previous year.

 

The 2005 White Sox have 4 starters with a season ERA under 4. The 2006 White Sox DIDN'T have ONE starter with an ERA under 4. The big 4 from the previous season returned, and they brought in Javier Vazquez to be the 5th starter (and he was an adequate 5th starter, even if more was expected from him).

 

They didn't neglect the pitching staff.

 

Again, this is my argument. They didn't win because the pitching staff was garbage. Are you on my side?

[caulfield12]

The White Sox in 2006 lost because there were two better teams in ALCD.

 

Our starting pitching staff was overtaxed in 2005. Contreras wasn't close to being the same pitcher from June, 2006 on. Jenks was hurt and really struggled the second half. The defense was fine with Anderson in CF until he proved he couldn't hit his weight and Mackowiak was just out of his element trying to play CF. And the offense really started to go into a funk in August/September and injuries started to take their toll. Vazquez disappeared over and over again in big games against teams like the Tigers.

 

Around the ASB that year (after the infamous Boston/Papelbon game), we were only 2 GB. In less than a month, we were close to 10 GB. For some reason, I remember getting some very decent starting pitching but the offense wasn't scoring runs to save the pitching, especially in a later series at Boston.

 

That, and the defense overall just wasn't as good, beyond the revolving CF situation.

Edited January 23, 2010 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Are you making the case for me or you?? That pretty much sums up everything I've said.

 

 

Discounting teams like the Red Sox and Yankees because of their payrolls...think of all the teams with great offenses that went nowhere because of the lack of pitching. The 1995-2001 Indians teams are the perfect example.

 

Or look at the offensive numbers put up by teams like the Rangers and Rockies historically.

 

There's no doubt there needs to be a balance, or the Braves would have won more than 1 World Series title in 14 tries. And A's and Twins teams in the first half of this decade had very good or great pitching AND good to great defenses and they were simply lacking firepower offensively.

 

If you looked at the teams that have finished above .500 over the last decade, I would guess 65-75% of them had "top half" pitching statistics in their respective leagues.

 

Just looking at the White Sox, with the exception of 2000 when the offense mostly carried the team injury-depleted pitching staff until the end of the season, the best Sox teams have always been the ones that were in the Top 5-6 in AL pitching. This was the case in 05 and 08, as well as the pitching we got from the 89-94 teams.

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

i have to agree with you. although the teams hit for a lot of power, pitching was still number one. pitching 1, hrs 2

Except this guy is saying "pitching all, HR zero", which is not the same thing.

 

[witesoxfan]

Are you making the case for me or you?? That pretty much sums up everything I've said.

 

Again, this is my argument. They didn't win because the pitching staff was garbage. Are you on my side?

 

 

OK, f*** this, here it is. The 2010 White Sox have a good pitching staff. They have, what appears to be, the best rotation in the AL Central. The bullpen is shaky, but relievers are volatile from year to year, and the potential is there for the 2010 bullpen to be very, very good. The offense, as currently constructed, will be lucky to 750 runs, and it's more likely they end up around 700 runs scored. For example's sake, I'll quickly project optimistic OPS's for the members of the lineup if absolutely everything goes right...

 

Pierzynski - .750

Konerko - .850

Beckham - .850

Ramirez - .775

Teahen - .775

Pierre - .725

Rios - .800

Quentin - .900

Jones/Kotsay - .775

 

This means Pierzynsi hits around .300, Konerko repeats last season, Beckham progresses like normal, Ramirez hits for power again, Teahen actually produces, Pierre finds his doubles power, Rios hits for average, Quentin remains healthy, hits for power, and hits for a good average (and his career BABIP of .258 proves to be a mirage), Kotsay puts up his career average, and Jones proves that last year wasn't a fluke and that his 2007 and 2008 seasons were.

 

But, if the Sox could move Jones and Kotsay to the bench while still getting about 200-300 plate appearances each (due to injury, slumps, and regular substituting), they can still be very useful members of the club, and the Sox can bring in another good hitter into the fold and the offense can go from a point of weakness to a point of strength with the amount of depth it has.

 

All by the addition of one more hitter.

 

The Twins offense, especially if the sign Thome, will likely end up scoring around 850 runs. It was strong before, and any contribution Thome gives them - even if he hits .230 (because he walks and hits for enough power that his average is virtually meaningless unless he's hitting about .200) - will add to that strength.

 

The pitching is there, and they need one more hitter. If they get that hitter, I will be satisfied, but I strongly doubt it will happen.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Peavytime=Poppy Hildago?

[JDsDirtySox]

Thome coming back is now up to 50/50.

 

http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2010/01..._the_sox_s.html

 

[witesoxfan]

Thome coming back is now up to 50/50.

 

http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2010/01..._the_sox_s.html

 

there is a God

[MattZakrowski]

Thome coming back is now up to 50/50.

 

http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2010/01..._the_sox_s.html

 

I'm really glad, not only because we need production out of that spot, but because I'm pretty sure at some point I said I'd eat my hat if we didn't get a real DH, and I don't even like hat. Too starchy.

 

[ScottyDo]

"He's like a [Juan] Uribe ... well, not really but, same type of thing..."

 

Hahahaha!

 

Bring Jim Uribe back!!!

[Dick Allen]

The White Sox won the world series because of incredible pitching which included a ridiculous 2.55 ERA in the postseason.

 

They Sox then hit 236 homers in '06. 36 more than when they won it all. They must have won it all again right? They didn't? What was different? Oh yeah, their pitching SUCKED!

Pitching and home runs. They hit a few big bombs. Iguchi, Konerko, Pods, Dye, Blum. I agree if the pitching sucks it doesn't matter, but the Sox starters had the second best ERA in the AL last year and they weren't .500. Is it a coincidence the Sox 2 worst seasons under KW are the 2 they hit the least homers? Its all find and dandy having Kotsay and Jones playing every day thinking they will turn back the clock and be productive and stay healthy. Its just not realistic. That combo reminds me of the Darrin Erstad debacle. Sometimes guys are done.

 

Its nice that they are re-thinking Thome. I would prefer Damon even though he provides a little less power because he would be used differently and can still run. But Thome I would be happy with. You can't count on the other 2 to be healthy.

[Princess Dye]

That new Cowley piece really is something.

 

It's almost like they openly want 2010 to be all on Guillen. It's his baby

 

To wreck or succeed with