The Jim Thome Saga Ends

[bmags]

Firefox has spellcheck my good man.

[Princess Dye]

Expecting to see a thread tomorrow telling us about Ozzie's next delayed flight

[hitlesswonder]

The fact that Kotsay and Vizquel are going to get these at bats and that Nix or Lillibridge may make the team over Thome make me really question KW and I think this is Guillen putting it on the line. Hope it works out.

 

I can't believe that any people are accepting that a DH platoon of Kotsay/Jones/Vizquel is anything close to a rational plan. It's an awful idea. You're talking about a DH that over the last 3 years has a below .700 OPS That's crazy. In his last 1000 ABs Vizquel has a .600 OPS. And Ozzie has mentioned DHing him twice recently. Jones and Kotsay are closer to .700, but still below it. If you can get Thome for $3M or less than it is idiotic to put junk in the lineup instead of him.

 

I absolutely cannot believe the management team of a major league baseball franchise has put together this plan.

[Princess Dye]

Even with his bad years as a Red Sox, Kotsay has stayed good at hitting righties. I like him used selectively.

 

Thome is no guarantee to repeat his OBP from last year. There's some decline there and he's not getting any younger.

 

True, there's no guarantee Kotsay keeps up what he's doing either. But you get bat control and situational hitting from him, which we have a serious dearth of.

 

I refuse to believe you NEED to have great production from your DH. We basically need all our guys to have their regular numbers, and Quentin to have a better year than last. If that happens, then the DH spot can be a wait and see..(and even an eventual chance for midseason Flowers at-bats)

 

 

Carl Everett was OK as a DH in '05. I will grant that he provided power. But we got by w/o good OBP from him. If we have added a bunch of HRs to the lineup with Teahan/Rios/Beckham, we can afford to use more of a slappy guy at DH.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Princess Dye

[SoxAce]

The thing that makes it even more dumb, is not even about their offense as a DH. Vizquel is still very good defensively. You can't field when you are the DH in the lineup. Andruw Jones is still good in RF (serviceable in CF) You can't do that when you DH. Kotsay is very solid at 1B (meh to blah.. at the OF spots) you get the point.

 

I would love this if say we got a solid LF/RF and Quentin was mainly the rotating DH guy who plays the field spelling guys. Or even Konerko in the infield if we got a very solid 1B (I was clamoring for N. Johnson all winter and it sucks that we missed on him) and you can rotate one of those guys spelling the other, just for their bat. But that is not the case.

[chw42]

The thing that makes it even more dumb, is not even about their offense as a DH. Vizquel is still very good defensively. You can't field when you are the DH in the lineup. Andruw Jones is still good in RF (serviceable in CF) You can't do that when you DH. Kotsay is very solid at 1B (meh to blah.. at the OF spots) you get the point.

 

I would love this if say we got a solid LF/RF and Quentin was mainly the rotating DH guy who plays the field spelling guys. Or even Konerko in the infield if we got a very solid 1B (I was clamoring for N. Johnson all winter and it sucks that we missed on him) and you can rotate one of those guys spelling the other, just for their bat. But that is not the case.

 

Vizquel's only value is his defense, his offense is Yuniesky Betancourt bad.

[Princess Dye]

http://nomaas.org/?p=660

 

For what its worth, this link has a chart showing how NYY rotated their DH. There was a main guy in the role, but they did have a fair amount of people switching in and out.

 

I dont have a problem with a rotating DH in and of itself. Most of us would have no problem with it if we felt the guys rotating in and out were good hitters. The issue is we feel the players themselves are a question mark.

[SoxAce]

Vizquel's only value is his defense, his offense is Yuniesky Betancourt bad.

 

You are pretty much right, but I'll give Vizquel this.. He is good in the clutch, the basepaths and can bunt. Pretty much what I'm saying is he better be doing alot of bunting this season, but he will deliver the big hit late.

[caulfield12]

Even with his bad years as a Red Sox, Kotsay has stayed good at hitting righties. I like him used selectively.

 

Thome is no guarantee to repeat his OBP from last year. There's some decline there and he's not getting any younger.

 

True, there's no guarantee Kotsay keeps up what he's doing either. But you get bat control and situational hitting from him, which we have a serious dearth of.

 

I refuse to believe you NEED to have great production from your DH. We basically need all our guys to have their regular numbers, and Quentin to have a better year than last. If that happens, then the DH spot can be a wait and see..(and even an eventual chance for midseason Flowers at-bats)

 

 

Carl Everett was OK as a DH in '05. I will grant that he provided power. But we got by w/o good OBP from him. If we have added a bunch of HRs to the lineup with Teahan/Rios/Beckham, we can afford to use more of a slappy guy at DH.

 

 

Beckham did it (thrived for most of his first season), but I don't think putting Tyler into the heat of a pennant race as a rookie DH is the wisest plan in the world for his development.

 

KW has seen enough position prospects go bust than to put faith in Tyler saving the season.

 

There was a thread presenting 30-40 different options and KW has passed on all of them (so far)...one would have thought that going into 2009 with no legit starting CFer would have taught him a valuable lesson, but perhaps he thinks it's a lot easier to just go out and find a DH at any point in the season or Spring Training THAN an everyday outfielder, especially a CFer.

 

 

 

 

[bmags]

There was a thread presenting 30-40 different options and KW has passed on all of them (so far)...one would have thought that going into 2009 with no legit starting CFer would have taught him a valuable lesson, but perhaps he thinks it's a lot easier to just go out and find a DH at any point in the season or Spring Training THAN an everyday outfielder, especially a CFer.

 

Say he does this though... I can't imagine it will be cheaper in talent and money than the couple of million we are talking about now.

[Chicago White Sox]

I found it amusing at SoxFest that KW said something along the lines that while the 2010 Sox will have less power they will make up for it with more men on-base and overall team speed. Unfortunately, while we may be faster, we have not added any high OBP guys. I remember KW saying this would be an off-season priority and yet he hasn't addressed it one bit. I'm not the biggest Thome fan in the world, but right now, there is no better option. He gives the team the left-handed power and OBP it desperately needs in the middle of the lineup and would come very cheaply. If KW does not sign Thome (or a similar FA) and goes with a rotating DH of bench players, it will truly be a mistake of Dwayne Wise proportions. This versatility propaganda is complete and utter bulls***. Only a fool like Guillen could come up with such s***. I really hope that KW isn't stupid enough to believe Guillen's "logic". It really would be a shame to waste a season with such a potentially dominant rotation.

[chisoxfan09]

For good, bad or indifferent there are still 2 plus untilthe season starts to sign Thome if he is still available. And then there is the trading deadline. Just sayin...

[Ranger]

I'm guessing at midseason last year no one was expecting: Kenny and Ozzie to be stupid enough to go into the next season with Kotsay/A. Jones as our DH when we knew going into this offseason that this would be a great buyers market for DHs.

 

And I'm guessing what piqued our interest about thome now is not the fact that he said he would return, but rather we are really going into the season with probably a .750 ops from our DH. That's inexcusable, and who is on the market that is LH and cheap? Thome.

 

And I don't think fans give a damn what was obvious when they parted ways, their plan instead of thome is god awful and embarrassing. This situation is a mess but easily fixable with 2 million. I can tell you it is not going to be fun to say "I told you so" when the platoon DH is a miserable failure that leaves us 5 games behind the twins at the allstar break.

 

Just because some people have a perception that Jim Thome sucks and wants him gone doesn't mean he actually does suck and should be off the team. Not everybody has the patience or the know how to evaluate a player's true value to a team, especially since this season is a completely different circumstance than 2008 or even 2009. Besides, back in 2008, Thome's power on this team wasn't as valuable as it would be now or even last season. This team is lacking a left handed slugger to hit home runs and provide good OBP, the team we have now would have problems hitting 150 home runs and the average starter's OBP might be in the .325 range. In a ballpark where the home run is king, you have to be able to hit your fair share to win.

 

I wouldn't call the DH market a "great" one because there really haven't been that many good DH's available at a cheap price.

 

Like I've said a number of times, I think this upcoming season would be a lot more comfortable for me if I had a better feeling about that spot in the order. What they have proposed at the moment isn't terribly exciting. It's not that it can't work, because I think that it can, it's just that it doesn't seem ideal. However, I've been an advocate of parting ways with Thome for a long time and I never really thought they'd come back with him or Dye. I always thought they'd keep 1 of the Dye/Thome/PK trio...2 of them at the most, but I thought even that would be unlikely. The problem with Thome, even though he's still been productive, is that he is not getting any younger and his bat speed isn't getting any faster. At any moment, he's liable to have a significant drop-off. That's what worries me about him.

 

If what they have is, indeed, what they will start the season with, they'll find out by the middle of May whether or not it's going to work. And since they are right at their budget, with maybe a little breathing room, I have no problem with them being flexible enough to make a trade and take on some salary midseason. I like the idea of that flexibility being there in case some other need arises after the season starts (due to injury or poor performance or something of that nature). I'm aware that seasons can be lost in April, but I can't see that being the case in this division. Regardless of their DH, they should be able to remain competitive until they can make whatever midseason adjustments they need to make.

 

 

 

bmags has just touched on this, but I don't think a whole lot of people anticipated in midsummer of last year that Thome could be resigned for $2 million either.

 

Then again, Mr. Rongey, no offense intended, but the vast majority of people that contact you via your show are reacting in an emotional, illogical, and/or inebriated manner.

 

You don't say?

[iamshack]

You don't say?

 

Well remember to keep that in mind when putting fans that contact you through your show, and fans whose opinions you read here in the same group.

 

There usually is quite a distinction.

[hitlesswonder]

The problem with Thome, even though he's still been productive, is that he is not getting any younger and his bat speed isn't getting any faster. At any moment, he's liable to have a significant drop-off. That's what worries me about him.

 

Jones and Kotsay have already had those drop-offs. If Thome is indeed cheap, it's not much of a gamble to spend $2M to see if he can hit righties at an .850 OPS clip instead of Kotsay's .738 OPS clip over the last 3 years.

 

Regardless of their DH, they should be able to remain competitive until they can make whatever midseason adjustments they need to make.

 

Games lost before midseason are still games lost. I don't see why they would want to make winning the division more difficult by handicapping themselves with a bad DH for half a season when it appears they can significantly upgrade pretty cheaply.

 

I'm fine with Thome not being back, but if replacing him is a goal, replace him with someone that can hit and get on-base.

Edited January 25, 2010 by hitlesswonder

[greg775]

I'd also hate to see Jimmy with the Twins.

Just sign him for one more year. Oz falls in love with certain players like Kotsay, who is decent, but my god, Jimmy is a threat in the middle of the order.

Limit his at bats some, but sign Jimmy.

 

[Buehrlesque]

I wouldn't call the DH market a "great" one because there really haven't been that many good DH's available at a cheap price.

 

Like I've said a number of times, I think this upcoming season would be a lot more comfortable for me if I had a better feeling about that spot in the order. What they have proposed at the moment isn't terribly exciting. It's not that it can't work, because I think that it can, it's just that it doesn't seem ideal. However, I've been an advocate of parting ways with Thome for a long time and I never really thought they'd come back with him or Dye. I always thought they'd keep 1 of the Dye/Thome/PK trio...2 of them at the most, but I thought even that would be unlikely. The problem with Thome, even though he's still been productive, is that he is not getting any younger and his bat speed isn't getting any faster. At any moment, he's liable to have a significant drop-off. That's what worries me about him.

 

If what they have is, indeed, what they will start the season with, they'll find out by the middle of May whether or not it's going to work. And since they are right at their budget, with maybe a little breathing room, I have no problem with them being flexible enough to make a trade and take on some salary midseason. I like the idea of that flexibility being there in case some other need arises after the season starts (due to injury or poor performance or something of that nature). I'm aware that seasons can be lost in April, but I can't see that being the case in this division. Regardless of their DH, they should be able to remain competitive until they can make whatever midseason adjustments they need to make.

 

Thome, nearing age 40, is not ideal, no doubt. I really truly though KW was going to make some kind of move for a DH this winter- Nick Johnson, Brad Hawpe (my personal pick), Adrian Gonzalez, Hideki Matsui, etc. (Obviously, some of those were more likely than others). The point was, I thought KW would improve the DH position from Thome to "Player X." He didn't, and now Thome is the improvement, compared to what the Sox have now.

 

He's still worth 100+ more points of OPS than Mark Kotsay. For the low price he's asking, I don't see why you wouldn't want to upgrade the LH half of your DH platoon.

 

As for the wait-and-see and we'll upgrade at midseason approach, I wouldn't be surprised if KW was keeping the position uncommitted so he can take a run at Adrian Gonzalez or Adam Dunn or someone big like that in July.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Buehrlesque

[iWiN4PreP]

so he can take a run at Adrian Gonzalez or Adam Dunn or someone big like that in July.

 

This is exactly what I feel is happening. He's giving Ozzie a go his way, if it fails, he gives the DH come mid season.

[caulfield12]

I wouldn't call the DH market a "great" one because there really haven't been that many good DH's available at a cheap price.

 

Like I've said a number of times, I think this upcoming season would be a lot more comfortable for me if I had a better feeling about that spot in the order. What they have proposed at the moment isn't terribly exciting. It's not that it can't work, because I think that it can, it's just that it doesn't seem ideal. However, I've been an advocate of parting ways with Thome for a long time and I never really thought they'd come back with him or Dye. I always thought they'd keep 1 of the Dye/Thome/PK trio...2 of them at the most, but I thought even that would be unlikely. The problem with Thome, even though he's still been productive, is that he is not getting any younger and his bat speed isn't getting any faster. At any moment, he's liable to have a significant drop-off. That's what worries me about him.

 

If what they have is, indeed, what they will start the season with, they'll find out by the middle of May whether or not it's going to work. And since they are right at their budget, with maybe a little breathing room, I have no problem with them being flexible enough to make a trade and take on some salary midseason. I like the idea of that flexibility being there in case some other need arises after the season starts (due to injury or poor performance or something of that nature). I'm aware that seasons can be lost in April, but I can't see that being the case in this division. Regardless of their DH, they should be able to remain competitive until they can make whatever midseason adjustments they need to make.

 

 

 

 

 

You don't say?

 

 

The money paid out to the likes of Vladimir Guerrero, Nick Johnson, Hideki Matsui, Miguel Tejada, Rick Ankiel, Aubrey Huff, LaRoche (a bit pricey based on his career results), DeRosa, etc., hasn't been anything CLOSE to exorbidant. To put it in perspective, it's roughly what we paid Octavio Dotel to be a serviceable 7th inning reliever for two seasons. With all the questions surrounding our offense, Rios' return to form, Beckham's possible sophomore jinx, Quentin's health, Teahen's actual impact/ceiling offensively, Konerko's future...it wouldn't be the worst idea in the world to add something closer to a "sure bet" than what we're going to run out there on a day-to-day basis. I just hope Alexei can pull his head out of his A-- the first two months this year.

 

Nonetheless, there are still legit options out there like J. Damon, Winn, Orlando Hudson, Branyan, Carlos Delgado, etc.

 

While I'm a BIT more optimistic some combination of Jones/Kotsay/Quentin/Tyler Flowers can put up "decent" numbers, I guess the only thing to say at this point is it's not QUITE as bad as starting the season with DeWayne Wise in CF and him getting booed the first home series of the season.

 

I'm pretty sure the fans wouldn't turn on Andruw Jones like that. They might wait until May or June.

[bmags]

You know the DH situation is bad when it makes me forget how poor our leadoff hitter is.

[Leonard Zelig]

 

Well remember to keep that in mind when putting fans that contact you through your show, and fans whose opinions you read here in the same group.

 

There usually is quite a distinction.

 

Right, nobody is ever emotional, illogical, or inebriated here.

[iamshack]

Right, nobody is ever emotional, illogical, or inebriated here.

Ok, so to put it a different way, which general consensus would you value more? That at Soxtalk or that of Chris's callers?

[caulfield12]

I think both have equal weight.

 

Ok, so to put it a different way, which general consensus would you value more? That at Soxtalk or that of Chris's callers? Sadly, I believe that those callers actually have more influence on the White Sox and KW, even though I don't want to believe it...there's that past history of comments about KW not caring at all what people think of him or his moves, then he spends more time than any GM in baseball explaining himself and reiterating that he doesn't care!

 

Because the majority of people that call into shows like that, while they might not even attend any games, their "silent majority" opinion does have some influence.

 

Just because posters here are more knowledgeable, that doesn't mean that we represent more than a sub-segment of White Sox fans.

 

For instance, they help to reinforce stereotypes about White Sox fans as being more "blue collar" or complain about topics from 10-15 years ago like "Reinsdorf is cheap."

 

It's interesting that Chris reacted the way he did, that he was surprised so many people wanted Thome back when in his mind, the majority of fans calling into the post-game would always complain about Thome when he had one of his patented TWO 4-3 putouts with a hat trick of strikeouts in a crucial game.

 

Really, it's not that MOST fans really want him back, it's that they just can't believe that we would rather use Jones/Kotsay instead of spending an additional $2-3 million to bring Thome back as part of a platoon situation. And maybe I'm startled too that anyone would think of Thome as this point in his career being prohibitively expensive to add to the roster. That Phillies contract is over and done with...

Edited January 25, 2010 by caulfield12

[bmags]

I wouldn't call the DH market a "great" one because there really haven't been that many good DH's available at a cheap price.

 

I don't understand how you can say this. In fact, it was pretty clearly the opposite. There were many pretty good hitters that could play no other position and it drove their price down.

[Leonard Zelig]

Ok, so to put it a different way, which general consensus would you value more? That at Soxtalk or that of Chris's callers?

 

Like it has been said, they are emotional, that would be like judging Soxtalk solely on the post-game threads.