The Jim Thome Saga Ends

[NorthSideSox72]

As people here probably know, I'm usually an Ozzie defender. People come on here and say, in so many words, that Ozzie is stupid - when clearly that is not the case. Ozzie knows a hell of a lot about baseball.

 

But this time, if he really does decide that a platoon of Kotsay and Jones is somehow better than Thome and Jones (which is what we are really debating here), then I'll say it: Ozzie, this is stupid.

 

I actually decided to send an email to Ozzie, asking him (much more politely than I am here) to reconsider Thome. I've always had his email address around, but I don't think I've ever used it. That's how desperately I am hoping that Oz comes to his senses on this.

 

[bmags]

This is like going into a gun fight with a knife, pez gun, nail on a 2x4 and pillowcase filled with soap because you think it gives you more options.

[Dick Allen]

I thought I was pretty clear in what I said. Most of what I get (caller, emails, texts) is that people wanted Thome gone by midseason last year. Actually they wanted him gone midseason the year before. Now it seems to have completely changed.

 

 

 

 

Actually, the Sox are really only in this position because Thome doesn't have a job yet. And because he said publicly that he would welcome a return, which then piqued everyone's interest and it became a topic. And because it became in issue, they've had to address it. I thought it was fairly obvious they decided to part ways with him this winter.

There isn't one player on the Sox who fans haven't wanted gone at some point. Even Beckham people were down on after his slow start. I'm sure the White Sox have known Thome's first choice is them from before they traded him. Its not a new revelation. They need a bat. This Kotsay/Jones/Vizquel rotating DH thing is not going to work, just like Wise in CF didn't work. Just like Swisher leading off didn't work. Just like Darrin Erstad didn't work or Mike MacDougal or Andy Gonzalez.................................................They have to do something to correct it before it costs them wins. If its bringing back Thome fine. If its someone else fine. I agree Thome's popularity has increased tenfold, just on this board alone the past couple of days, but if the Sox had adequately filled his position, his potential signing with Minnesota would have been met with a collective yawn.

[caulfield12]

This is like going into a gun fight with a knife, pez gun, nail on a 2x4 and pillowcase filled with soap because you think it gives you more options.

 

 

Which one is Omar Vizquel or Jayson Nix?

[caulfield12]

There isn't one player on the Sox who fans haven't wanted gone at some point. Even Beckham people were down on after his slow start. I'm sure the White Sox have known Thome's first choice is them from before they traded him. Its not a new revelation. They need a bat. This Kotsay/Jones/Vizquel rotating DH thing is not going to work, just like Wise in CF didn't work. Just like Swisher leading off didn't work. Just like Darrin Erstad didn't work or Mike MacDougal or Andy Gonzalez.................................................They have to do something to correct it before it costs them wins. If its bringing back Thome fine. If its someone else fine. I agree Thome's popularity has increased tenfold, just on this board alone the past couple of days, but if the Sox had adequately filled his position, his potential signing with Minnesota would have been met with a collective yawn.

 

 

Hmmm....I don't think I ever wanted to get rid of Robin Ventura or Lance Johnson.

[HuskyCaucasian]

Please, dont bring him back. I know he's a great guy and all, but it is time to move forward.

[flavum]

Please, dont bring him back. I know he's a great guy and all, but it is time to move forward.

 

Agreed, and Ozzie knows this. He keeps saying that he wishes he hated Thome, so the decision would be easier. There's your answer, Ozzie. You know you don't want him back. Don't do it.

[shago]

I'm not sure I'd pay him more than the other available DH's if he doesn't have the Yankee Stadium to help his bat.

 

Are you out of your mind???

The Cell is not exactly the old Tiger Stadium...

 

Damon is one of the most consistent/productive players in MLB:

 

Year AB R H HR RBI BB SB BA OBP SLG

 

Projected 2010 528 95 152 17 69 60 14 0.2879 0.3605 0.4394

3-year Average 546 98 156 18 72 67 23 0.2857 0.3647 0.4505

 

Lock him into a $5base, incentive-heavy deal with the oppy to make $10+

 

[iWiN4PreP]

Agreed - I think we sign Damon.

[Balta1701]

Are you out of your mind???

The Cell is not exactly the old Tiger Stadium...

 

Damon is one of the most consistent/productive players in MLB:

Basically, he's put up an .820 OPS and a 110 OPS+ over the past decade with a .360ish OBP. I'll grant you he's consistent. But he's no where near "One of the most productive players in MLB".

 

If no one's out there giving him that kind of money than he's not going to get it.

[NorthSideSox72]

Please, dont bring him back. I know he's a great guy and all, but it is time to move forward.

 

 

Agreed, and Ozzie knows this. He keeps saying that he wishes he hated Thome, so the decision would be easier. There's your answer, Ozzie. You know you don't want him back. Don't do it.

 

The only reason I've seen anyone give for why we don't bring Thome back is something like "its time to move on". No one has given a real reason why you'd want LESS productive hitters (by a long shot) over Thome. The only thing Ozzie can come up with is "flexibility". No one has a real reason.

 

[shago]

Basically, he's put up an .820 OPS and a 110 OPS+ over the past decade with a .360ish OBP. I'll grant you he's consistent. But he's no where near "One of the most productive players in MLB".

 

If no one's out there giving him that kind of money than he's not going to get it.

 

Uhhhmmmm speed?

 

 

[hogan873]

The only reason I've seen anyone give for why we don't bring Thome back is something like "its time to move on". No one has given a real reason why you'd want LESS productive hitters (by a long shot) over Thome. The only thing Ozzie can come up with is "flexibility". No one has a real reason.

 

You hit the nail on the head here. "It's time to move on" is not a reason to not sign him. If the Sox had a chance to go after someone younger with power, well that's a reason. But due to money and other restrictions the Sox aren't really in the market for someone younger. And as far as flexibility, doesn't signing Thome actually add flexibility? Especially if he comes in knowing that he may sit when there's a left-hander on the mound.

[jphat007]

We aren't signing Damon or Delgado or anybody else. It's either Thome or Jones, Kotsay and Nix. Take your pick.

[ThunderBolt]

We aren't signing Damon or Delgado or anybody else. It's either Thome or Jones, Kotsay and Nix. Take your pick.

Nix won't be DH'ing for the Sox, Even though he's probably the second best option on the damn team if we have to choose between Jones, Kotsay, Castro, Visquel and Nix. Nixs' future all lies on whether Jim Thome is brought back. Right now, Thome not being here is the only thing keeping him on the 25-man.

[quickman]

Are you serious? You'd much rather have him hit home runs for you.

 

Do all of you seriously think that Andruw Jones and Mark Kotsay can give you enough production out of a DH spot, the most offensive oriented spot in the lineup?

 

Thome is capable of putting up a .850 OPS, very few other players on this team can do that. Carlos Quentin and Paul Konerko might be the only ones capable of it at this point. Thome is an extremely valuable piece of the puzzle right now. Not because he's awesome, but because whatever we're going to use instead of him have proven nothing and will most likely produce nothing.

 

 

Not sure what your argument is with me on this. Is it that I don't want thome back? or that KW put himself in this situation?

[Ranger]

 

Well remember to keep that in mind when putting fans that contact you through your show, and fans whose opinions you read here in the same group.

 

There usually is quite a distinction.

 

I don't know shack, some of the opinions there are similar to those here. I don't read game threads on the message baords because thsoe are exactly the same as postgame calls. Same tone, same overreaction, very few level-heads. The difference is, in a thread like this, people have usually had time to think about something before they get all foamy-mouthed.

 

 

Jones and Kotsay have already had those drop-offs. If Thome is indeed cheap, it's not much of a gamble to spend $2M to see if he can hit righties at an .850 OPS clip instead of Kotsay's .738 OPS clip over the last 3 years.

 

 

Games lost before midseason are still games lost. I don't see why they would want to make winning the division more difficult by handicapping themselves with a bad DH for half a season when it appears they can significantly upgrade pretty cheaply.

 

I'm fine with Thome not being back, but if replacing him is a goal, replace him with someone that can hit and get on-base.

 

I agree that I'd like a better option or somebody that maybe doesn't have the same OPS but it is more useful in other ways and less likely to hurt himself. Thome did a good job last year of staying healthy, given his history and his age. However, that age is very much working against him and as the years go on, the more and more likely it is he'll spend significant time on the DL.

 

The one problem with going into a season with "everything you need" is that if you don't have unlimited resources, you won't have enough room to maneuver when you discover the needs you didn't know you had. Take for example the '06 team: they went into that season in pretty good shape, had a maxed-out payroll, and were the clear favorites in the division. It was unforeseeable that Cotts and Politte were not only going to nothave years like they did the previous year but that they were going to have absolutely terrible years. It became clear they needed bullpen help when it looked like they were set prior to the season. If you are not the Yankees, flexibility is a good thing when you need to be able to react to the holes you didn't know you were going to have because of injury or sudden, unexpected drop-off.

 

You know the DH situation is bad when it makes me forget how poor our leadoff hitter is.

 

It's not that bad. You forget how poor the leadoff situation was because it's not happening now.

[elgonzo4sox]

We aren't signing Damon or Delgado or anybody else. It's either Thome or Jones, Kotsay and Nix. Take your pick.

 

Nix won't be DH'ing for the Sox, Even though he's probably the second best option on the damn team if we have to choose between Jones, Kotsay, Castro, Visquel and Nix. Nixs' future all lies on whether Jim Thome is brought back. Right now, Thome not being here is the only thing keeping him on the 25-man.

 

We need to look beyond the 25-man roster. Something bad (injury or poor start) will happen to someone on the 25-man roster, in spring training (last year Nix went down) or early in the season (last year Wise went down). Who is our first call-up? I absolutely dread that it is Lillibridge.

 

I view this choice as Thome vs. Lillibridge vs. someone else from the open market.

 

 

 

[Kalapse]

Even with his bad years as a Red Sox, Kotsay has stayed good at hitting righties. I like him used selectively.

Oh yes, his multi-year splits vs right handed pitching are really quite reassuring:

 

Kotsay's 3 year splits vs RHP: .275/.335/.403/.738, 654 PA, 10 HR

 

Kotsay's 4 year splits vs RHP: .276/.339/.394/.732, 1088 PA, 14 HR

 

Kotsay's 5 year splits vs RHP: .272/.330/.397/.727, 1525 PA, 26 HR

 

Yeah, that's a whole lotta bad right there.

 

Then you look at Jim Thome's AVG/OPS vs RHP in his years with the Sox:

 

2006: .321/1.203

2007: .315/1.123

2008: .249/.868

2009: .262/.881

 

I know who I'd rather have as part of a platoon.

[sin city sox fan]

Don't know how reliable it is....but this article states the Yankees have offered Damon $2 million for the upcoming season and have no plans to increase it. I'm with the majority here....if we could get Damon for $3-5 million, he'd be a perfect fit for this lineup.

 

http://nymag.com/daily/sports/2010/01/the_...l_flirting.html

[The Ginger Kid]

Oh yes, his multi-year splits vs right handed pitching are really quite reassuring:

 

Kotsay's 3 year splits vs RHP: .275/.335/.403/.738, 654 PA, 10 HR

 

Kotsay's 4 year splits vs RHP: .276/.339/.394/.732, 1088 PA, 14 HR

 

Kotsay's 5 year splits vs RHP: .272/.330/.397/.727, 1525 PA, 26 HR

 

Yeah, that's a whole lotta bad right there.

 

Then you look at Jim Thome's AVG/OPS vs RHP in his years with the Sox:

 

2006: .321/1.203

2007: .315/1.123

2008: .249/.868

2009: .262/.881

 

I know who I'd rather have as part of a platoon.

good point, but this doesn't factor in his ability to spell PK or play some outfield. I'm not saying I agree with it (yet), but ozzie's trying to give himself more flexibility and kotsay does that, thome doesn't.

[Kalapse]

good point, but this doesn't factor in his ability to spell PK or play some outfield. I'm not saying I agree with it (yet), but ozzie's trying to give himself more flexibility and kotsay does that, thome doesn't.

Kotsay is on the team no matter what, he can still give Konerko the occasional day off or play some poor outfield in a pinch but there's likely to be a tremendous difference in production between Thome and Kotsay. It's not like we're talking about a 28 year old Mark Kotsay either, he's not very good in the outfield anymore and really can't play CF. Just how much is that "flexibility" worth when the "versatile" 34 year old is likely to be a liability both at the plate and in the field (sans 1B)?

[NorthSideSox72]

Kotsay is on the team no matter what, he can still give Konerko the occasional day off or play some poor outfield in a pinch but there's likely to be a tremendous difference in production between Thome and Kotsay. It's not like we're talking about a 28 year old Mark Kotsay either, he's not very good in the outfield anymore and really can't play CF. Just how much is that "flexibility" worth when the "versatile" 34 year old is likely to be a liability both at the plate and in the field (sans 1B)?

That's what I am thinking - Kotsay is a given, so really, this is Thome vs Nix vs another reliever. And none of those three are playing any significant time at 1B. I'll take Thome.

 

[bmags]

I don't know shack, some of the opinions there are similar to those here. I don't read game threads on the message baords because thsoe are exactly the same as postgame calls. Same tone, same overreaction, very few level-heads. The difference is, in a thread like this, people have usually had time to think about something before they get all foamy-mouthed.

 

 

 

 

I agree that I'd like a better option or somebody that maybe doesn't have the same OPS but it is more useful in other ways and less likely to hurt himself. Thome did a good job last year of staying healthy, given his history and his age. However, that age is very much working against him and as the years go on, the more and more likely it is he'll spend significant time on the DL.

 

The one problem with going into a season with "everything you need" is that if you don't have unlimited resources, you won't have enough room to maneuver when you discover the needs you didn't know you had. Take for example the '06 team: they went into that season in pretty good shape, had a maxed-out payroll, and were the clear favorites in the division. It was unforeseeable that Cotts and Politte were not only going to nothave years like they did the previous year but that they were going to have absolutely terrible years. It became clear they needed bullpen help when it looked like they were set prior to the season. If you are not the Yankees, flexibility is a good thing when you need to be able to react to the holes you didn't know you were going to have because of injury or sudden, unexpected drop-off.

 

 

 

It's not that bad. You forget how poor the leadoff situation was because it's not happening now.

 

True, when april 2nd rolls around i'll first be reminded of how awful pierre is before being reminded 4 abs later how atrocious our DH rotation is.

 

And I think its absolutely silly to go into the season knowing you have a gigantic hole at DH just so you know you have some resources to fill it later.

[soxfan3530]

i'm all for damon if he isnt going to cost a ton. give him 5 mil and lets go win a division.