The Jim Thome Saga Ends

[fathom]

Guillen said the Sox haven't ruled out bringing back Thome if they have a need for a left-hander power hitter later this season if he's available.

 

 

That's after saying he'd start 1-2 times a week. Mark Kotsay is officially the new Timo Perez.

[Ranger]

The Twins are a good team. They have the best lineup in the Central and adding Thome would only strengthen that. They have a ton of capable starting pitchers, and I'm sure that 4 of Blackburn, Slowey, Baker, Duensing, Pavano, Perkins, Liriano, Swarzak, Manship, and any other young starters they have in the minors can put up good seasons (which would mean they just need one decent starter out of the others). Their bullpen is likely to be very good again as well, as they have Rauch returning to go along with Nathan, Guerrier, Mijares, and seeing Crain put up a good season wouldn't surprise me either, and the Sox got really lucky the Twins gave up on Breslow as quickly as they did last year.

 

It's not the East, you're correct there, but I think the Sox are only the 2nd most talented team in the division.

 

I'm not writing them off, but I'm not pleased with how this offseason went.

 

 

Yes, the Twins have capable starters, but I wouldn't say they're nearly as good as the front 4 the Sox will send out there. The Sox should also have a good bullpen, especially combined with a really strong rotation. They have the two most talented players in the division in Morneau and Mauer, but the Sox have some pretty good talent too.

 

As I have said 1000 times, I have concerns about the DH. But when people bring up Kotsay/Jones/Vizquel/Nix, it's almost as if they're thinking all four of those guys will be in the lineup together at the same time. This is one spot out of 9 we're talking about. And while I share the same concerns on that one spot in the lineup, I think we're drastically overstating the impact it's going to have. They would probably be better with a sure bat in that spot, but it is not going to mean everything.

 

I will say this now, and you can tell me I'm wrong if it doesn't work out, but I think this lineup will do a much better job than people realize. And I say that because I think Quentin and Rios get back to where they need to be. This offense will live and die by what those two contribute. I believe that when we look back on the season in September, if it is an offensive failure (or success), it will be mainly because of those two guys or because of what Konerko does or doesn't do. It won't be because of who the DH isn't.

 

If I'm wrong about that, I'll wear it.

[Flash Tizzle]

Guillen said the Sox haven't ruled out bringing back Thome if they have a need for a left-hander power hitter later this season if he's available.

 

Haha, yeah, so if he signs with the Twins or Tigers I'm sure they'll just give him to us. Especially if either of those teams are contending with us for a division title.

[Melissa1334]

That's after saying he'd start 1-2 times a week. Mark Kotsay is officially the new Timo Perez.

just thought it was funny, like saying we dont want you or want you right now but hey if all goes wrong,we'll give you a call lol

[Melissa1334]

Yes, the Twins have capable starters, but I wouldn't say they're nearly as good as the front 4 the Sox will send out there. The Sox should also have a good bullpen, especially combined with a really strong rotation. They have the two most talented players in the division in Morneau and Mauer, but the Sox have some pretty good talent too.

 

As I have said 1000 times, I have concerns about the DH. But when people bring up Kotsay/Jones/Vizquel/Nix, it's almost as if they're thinking all four of those guys will be in the lineup together at the same time. This is one spot out of 9 we're talking about. And while I share the same concerns on that one spot in the lineup, I think we're drastically overstating the impact it's going to have. They would probably be better with a sure bat in that spot, but it is not going to mean everything.

 

I will say this now, and you can tell me I'm wrong if it doesn't work out, but I think this lineup will do a much better job than people realize. And I say that because I think Quentin and Rios get back to where they need to be. This offense will live and die by what those two contribute. I believe that when we look back on the season in September, if it is an offensive failure (or success), it will be mainly because of those two guys or because of what Konerko does or doesn't do. It won't be because of who the DH isn't.

 

If I'm wrong about that, I'll wear it.

i agree with you, great post cris.

[ptatc]

Last year jones had an OBP of 367 and more walks than K's against LHP and Kotsay had an OBP of 347 and 15/17 ratio of bb/k. They aren't going to hit for power like Thome but if Ozzie goes with a strict platoon, these two should get on base at a good clip.

 

This should be an interesting situation and make this even more fun towatch during the season.

[Ranger]

the best case scenario would be if Flowers lights it up in the Spring and forces KW's hand.

 

Flowers needs to catch everyday if they want him to be a catcher. His potential as a catcher is way too valuable to just make him a DH without even giving him a legit shot behind the plate. I'll be shocked if he doesn't start in AAA.

 

Fire Ozzie Guillen! I get it, he had a tremendous team handed to him in 2005, and good teams handed to him in 2006 and 2008, but he's a terrible manager. In his time with the White Sox, he has started and led off Dwayne Wise, benched Nick Swisher for old Ken Griffey Jr. and placed Scott Linebrink and Mike MacDougal in too many high leverage situations to count. Now he has decided that old Andruw Jones and MARK EFFING KOTSAY would make a better DH than Jim 'led the White Sox in OPS/EQA/wOBA' Thome. I have to partially blame KW for that last one, but KW has been a good, sometimes great GM, who is for whatever reason listening to his stupid ass, giving him the inferior team he claims to want. You want an NL style team? Go to the effing National League! You know what team is a national league style team? The Pirates. Go manage them. We play in US Cellular Field! You have to hit home runs to win at US Cellular Field! I mean seriously, give me something real and quantifiable that Guillen does well, because I'm tired of this bs off-season.

 

Meatballs!

 

[iamshack]

Yes, the Twins have capable starters, but I wouldn't say they're nearly as good as the front 4 the Sox will send out there. The Sox should also have a good bullpen, especially combined with a really strong rotation. They have the two most talented players in the division in Morneau and Mauer, but the Sox have some pretty good talent too.

 

As I have said 1000 times, I have concerns about the DH. But when people bring up Kotsay/Jones/Vizquel/Nix, it's almost as if they're thinking all four of those guys will be in the lineup together at the same time. This is one spot out of 9 we're talking about. And while I share the same concerns on that one spot in the lineup, I think we're drastically overstating the impact it's going to have. They would probably be better with a sure bat in that spot, but it is not going to mean everything.

 

I will say this now, and you can tell me I'm wrong if it doesn't work out, but I think this lineup will do a much better job than people realize. And I say that because I think Quentin and Rios get back to where they need to be. This offense will live and die by what those two contribute. I believe that when we look back on the season in September, if it is an offensive failure (or success), it will be mainly because of those two guys or because of what Konerko does or doesn't do. It won't be because of who the DH isn't.

 

If I'm wrong about that, I'll wear it.

 

Ok, so it's fair to say that the offense will go the way of Quentin and Rios, but also ok to argue that what we get out of the DH position won't make or break anything for us?

 

I agree Quentin and Rios are huge X-Factors for us, but we have like 5 X-Factors. So why the hell do you bypass a chance to put a near-certain productive middle of the order bat in your lineup? Even citing a decline due to his age, he still projects to be better than at least 6 or 7 of the other hitters in this lineup.

[kapkomet]

Yes, the Twins have capable starters, but I wouldn't say they're nearly as good as the front 4 the Sox will send out there. The Sox should also have a good bullpen, especially combined with a really strong rotation. They have the two most talented players in the division in Morneau and Mauer, but the Sox have some pretty good talent too.

 

As I have said 1000 times, I have concerns about the DH. But when people bring up Kotsay/Jones/Vizquel/Nix, it's almost as if they're thinking all four of those guys will be in the lineup together at the same time. This is one spot out of 9 we're talking about. And while I share the same concerns on that one spot in the lineup, I think we're drastically overstating the impact it's going to have. They would probably be better with a sure bat in that spot, but it is not going to mean everything.

 

I will say this now, and you can tell me I'm wrong if it doesn't work out, but I think this lineup will do a much better job than people realize. And I say that because I think Quentin and Rios get back to where they need to be. This offense will live and die by what those two contribute. I believe that when we look back on the season in September, if it is an offensive failure (or success), it will be mainly because of those two guys or because of what Konerko does or doesn't do. It won't be because of who the DH isn't.

If I'm wrong about that, I'll wear it.

 

 

This part right here is the money part. I completely agree with this thought process. Although, it would certainly help to have another bat protecting said Rios and CQ. It might make their season good to great, and that means a lot in this division.

[klaus kinski]

Options for what? Mark Kotsay is very injury prone, so what's going to happen when he pulls a muscle? I'm sure we'll see Lillibridge back up and leading off. And we don't have many prospects at all. Compared to the big market teams that have the resources (Boston and Yankees especially), our farm system is pathetic compared to theirs.

 

I am so sick of "options" and this is a disastrous decision, or did we get moved to NL Central?

[dmbjeff]

Dave Matthews Band Jeff, you're making hyperbolic, blanket statements about those two players. You said neither of them could start on any other team in baseball, which implies that only the Sox would have given them starting jobs (which by the way, they don't have anyway). Kotsay could maybe start in teh outfield for a number of NL teams (ATL, Giants, Astros, COL maybe, Padres maybe). I just don't think you can say with absolute certainty that he could not start anywhere else. Same for Jones. But it doesn't matter anyway, because NEITHER OF THEM ARE STARTING HERE.

 

I can't stand hyperbole, negative or positive.

 

Rongey,I understand neither of them will be true starters here since they are in a platoon. But between the 2 of them, they will be responsible for about 500AB's assuming that is the tandem for the season. Under a true platoon the lefty starts over the righty, about 65-70% of the time due to most SP's being righties. I'm not comfortable with Kotsay having 350 AB's out of a power position. To me, that is the biggest problem of the platoon. I'm actually OK with Jones DHing for 150 AB's but it is the 350 AB's with a light hitting 4th OF that worries me. A Thome/Jones platoon would have been fine. They would have put up 40HR 110 RBI with an OBP of probably .380 between them. Kotsay/Jones about 15-20HR and 70-80 RBI with an OBP of 340-350. It's easy to see why Kotsay has no right to be part of the platoon.

[MattZakrowski]

Meatballs!

 

Yea, admittedly a bit much, I'll own that. But to be fair, how many meatballs use wOBA in their angry rants?

[kapkomet]

Yea, admittedly a bit much, I'll own that. But to be fair, how many meatballs use wOBA in their angry rants?

 

 

[qwerty]

Jim h being his usual sad self... ooooh he might want to fight me now.

 

There will be players available later on if it doesn't work out.

 

Every single year Williams makes a mid season addition. Does SoxTalk not understand that concept? Further, do they not understand that Williams aims higher than guys off the scrap heap? Do they not understand there will be guys available later that aren't now?

 

But then again, there never has been any accountability over there ... for certain people anyway.

 

Thome makes perfect sense for the Twins. They can rotate Kubel and a few other guys in to DH adn then they'd have Thome.

 

Oh wait ... isn't that what the White Sox are doing, rotating the DH? So how can it be a good idea for the Twins and a bad idea for teh Sox according to the WLGND (whiny little girls negativity den), aka SoxTalk?

 

Funny how the site taking a strikingly negative turn has coincided with Whiny b**** Fathom posting on a daily basis again. Go figure.

 

 

 

Reinsdorf has said, recently in fact, the money will be there for an impact acquisition. Can SoxTalk connect the dots? I doubt it since they can't even put their baseball caps on the right way, so let me help.

 

They have their eyes on a player(s) who isn't available now but probably will be later.

 

 

 

Jason you are again looking at the little picture. Step back and broaden your focus.

 

1. They are aiming higher than anyone who would've been a good fit. People have screamed about their defense for years, especially the angst ridden girls at SoxTalk. With pitching, especially the pitching they have, they need decent defense and they have it.

2. Some of the players will be more productive with semi regular at bats. This is a concept that is foreign to the statheads at SoxTalk. They simply don't get it. You should also see better production out of guys like Konerko and Quentin when they're not constantly beat up physically.

 

3. The team they have now is not the team that will finish the 2010 campaign. Williams always adds, every year he adds. This year will be no different.

 

I am not meaning to put on rose colored glasses here but I have watched the game long enough that I know to wait and see what unfolds. SoxTalk is, as usual, in panic mode, primarily because the site is infested with know-it-alls and insufferable whiners like Fathom and his new partner jphat.

They want to see what Jones has in the tank, that's why they are hedging their bet on DH. Further they know they can find someone good mid year. You can't evaluate a player until you play him. And for all the SoxTalk statheads who look at Jones' recent numbers, well remember this. He is a proud guy who wants to turn his career around and he has the opportunity to do so with the White Sox. Is it any coincidence there are reports he's in the best shape in a long time? No.

 

It is shortsighted to evaluate on January 22nd. It is ok to have an opinion and express it. It is wrong to make definitive judgements like your buddies at SoxTalk are doing and have done for years, only to be wrong most of the time, or simply backtrack and forget what they said, i.e. "If Gavin Floyd wins 10 games with an ERA under 5.00 I will never post at SoxTalk again". Do you remember who said that Jason?

 

 

 

The latest from Whiny b**** Fathom regarding the Thome scenario ...

 

In response to a post stating that Ozzie will be talking to the media soon and it might be a "no" on Thome, here is Whiny b**** Fathom's response:

 

"Sadly, this seems like a situation where Ozzie wants to show he's smarter than everyone. I'm fine with that, as long as he's held accountable."

 

BWAAAAAA-HAAAAAAAA-HAAAAAAAA!!!!

 

Two things ...

 

1. Coming from WB Fathom, the king of "I'm smarter than everyone else when it comes to baseball, especially Ozzie Guillen", this statement is about as hypocritical as can be.

 

2. Whiny b**** Fathom saying ANYTHING about accountability is utterly laughable. Isn't he the same little twit who said, "If Gavin Floyd wins 10 games and has an ERA under 5.00 I will never post at SoxTalk again."

 

Typical SoxTalk, typical WB Fathom. Will someone please tip him off to his hypocrisy, tell him I'm calling him out, so maybe the whiny little b**** will actually try to rationalize his weasel behavior?

Edited January 26, 2010 by qwerty

[Flash Tizzle]

Ok, so it's fair to say that the offense will go the way of Quentin and Rios, but also ok to argue that what we get out of the DH position won't make or break anything for us?

 

I agree Quentin and Rios are huge X-Factors for us, but we have like 5 X-Factors. So why the hell do you bypass a chance to put a near-certain productive middle of the order bat in your lineup? Even citing a decline due to his age, he still projects to be better than at least 6 or 7 of the other hitters in this lineup.

It's simple -- the more x-factors there are, the more opportunities everyone can point out that if X-factor #2 hit what he was projected to hit, based on career averages, the DH position wouldn't matter!

Edited January 26, 2010 by Flash Tizzle

[iWiN4PreP]

What a douche. Soxtalk is a community, to generalize it based on a few posters.. Wow.

 

All it seems he's doing is whining as well.

 

Why not he come here, debate a little if he finds a need to debate.

[kapkomet]

What a douche. Soxtalk is a community, to generalize it based on a few posters.. Wow.

 

All it seems he's doing is whining as well.

 

Why not he come here, debate a little if he finds a need to debate.

 

 

Because he's not here anymore... ?

[iWiN4PreP]

Oh, I can see why.

[lakervin]

sorry all whitesox fans who think the club should sign thome,i loved what he brought to the team but i like what the chisoxs are doing.

[ptatc]

Fire Ozzie Guillen! I get it, he had a tremendous team handed to him in 2005, and good teams handed to him in 2006 and 2008, but he's a terrible manager. In his time with the White Sox, he has started and led off Dwayne Wise, benched Nick Swisher for old Ken Griffey Jr. and placed Scott Linebrink and Mike MacDougal in too many high leverage situations to count. Now he has decided that old Andruw Jones and MARK EFFING KOTSAY would make a better DH than Jim 'led the White Sox in OPS/EQA/wOBA' Thome. I have to partially blame KW for that last one, but KW has been a good, sometimes great GM, who is for whatever reason listening to his stupid ass, giving him the inferior team he claims to want. You want an NL style team? Go to the effing National League! You know what team is a national league style team? The Pirates. Go manage them. We play in US Cellular Field! You have to hit home runs to win at US Cellular Field! I mean seriously, give me something real and quantifiable that Guillen does well, because I'm tired of this bs off-season.

 

Win.

 

He is the best manager in winning games the Sox have had since Al Lopez. His winning percentage is within a few points of the great Tony LaRussa and higher than guys like Tommy Lasorda. Say what you want about Ozzie's crazyness, he does do alot of crazy things during the season and during the off-season but he wins more than anyone we've had in a long time. Unless you would rather go back to Terry Bevington, Jeff Torborg, Don Kessinger, Jim Fregosi Jerry Manuel or even tony LaRussa. I kow I'm missing afew but I'm too lazy to look them up for managers since the late 70's. Ozzie's teams have been to the playoffs more times than all of the others combined or at least close to it.

[GoodAsGould]

What a douche. Soxtalk is a community, to generalize it based on a few posters.. Wow.

 

All it seems he's doing is whining as well.

 

Why not he come here, debate a little if he finds a need to debate.

 

To be fair there are a lot of posters here that are "know it alls" so somethings he mentioned weren't all that inaccurate, that being said I still prefer this message board to WSI overall, but it has gotten to the point where I have cut down my posting by a significant amount.

[kapkomet]

Win.

 

He is the best manager in winning games the Sox have had since Al Lopez. His winning percentage is within a few points of the great Tony LaRussa and higher than guys like Tommy Lasorda. Say what you want about Ozzie's crazyness, he does do alot of crazy things during the season and during the off-season but he wins more than anyone we've had in a long time. Unless you would rather go back to Terry Bevington, Jeff Torborg, Don Kessinger, Jim Fregosi Jerry Manuel or even tony LaRussa. I kow I'm missing afew but I'm too lazy to look them up for managers since the late 70's. Ozzie's teams have been to the playoffs more times than all of the others combined or at least close to it.

 

 

Quit cussing.

[kapkomet]

To be fair there are a lot of posters here that are "know it alls" so somethings he mentioned weren't all that inaccurate, that being said I still prefer this message board to WSI overall, but it has gotten to the point where I have cut down my posting by a significant amount.

 

 

Meh, there's know it all's everywhere. They're just louder here.

[Ranger]

Ok, so it's fair to say that the offense will go the way of Quentin and Rios, but also ok to argue that what we get out of the DH position won't make or break anything for us?

 

I agree Quentin and Rios are huge X-Factors for us, but we have like 5 X-Factors. So why the hell do you bypass a chance to put a near-certain productive middle of the order bat in your lineup? Even citing a decline due to his age, he still projects to be better than at least 6 or 7 of the other hitters in this lineup.

 

Probably because Quentin and Rios two guys, not one, and they didn't contribute anything like what they should have last year. There is expected production from those two guys that the Sox didn't get in 2009.

 

I don't consider there to be 5 X-factors because I think there is every reason to think Teahen will have a decent year now that he should have some comfort and won't be getting jerked around (some guys respond to that comfort, by the way) and that Pierre will continue be what he's been. I don't consider Ramirez or Beckham to be X-factors either. Nor AJ. The only real doubts I have are with Quentin and Rios who would've been expected to bring in the production from the middle of the order along with PK. Those are your big boys right there. This is nothing new. This has been the case since December.

 

 

This part right here is the money part. I completely agree with this thought process. Although, it would certainly help to have another bat protecting said Rios and CQ. It might make their season good to great, and that means a lot in this division.

 

I don't believe that one hitter would turn this from "good" to "great" unless that hitter was Pujols or something.

 

 

Yea, admittedly a bit much, I'll own that. But to be fair, how many meatballs use wOBA in their angry rants?

 

You've got me there.

 

[iamshack]

Win.

 

He is the best manager in winning games the Sox have had since Al Lopez. His winning percentage is within a few points of the great Tony LaRussa and higher than guys like Tommy Lasorda. Say what you want about Ozzie's crazyness, he does do alot of crazy things during the season and during the off-season but he wins more than anyone we've had in a long time. Unless you would rather go back to Terry Bevington, Jeff Torborg, Don Kessinger, Jim Fregosi Jerry Manuel or even tony LaRussa. I kow I'm missing afew but I'm too lazy to look them up for managers since the late 70's. Ozzie's teams have been to the playoffs more times than all of the others combined or at least close to it.

 

He's also been in the perfect storm in terms of division competitiveness since he's been here.

 

I'd like to see how he would have matched up against those Indians teams of the mid and late 90's.