The Jim Thome Saga Ends

[kapkomet]

Ranger, you don't think that a good, solid hitter could make the production of someone like CQ that much better? I do, because he'd see more good pitches to hit. I'm somewhat surprised you don't agree with that part.

[MattZakrowski]

Win.

 

He is the best manager in winning games the Sox have had since Al Lopez. His winning percentage is within a few points of the great Tony LaRussa and higher than guys like Tommy Lasorda. Say what you want about Ozzie's crazyness, he does do alot of crazy things during the season and during the off-season but he wins more than anyone we've had in a long time. Unless you would rather go back to Terry Bevington, Jeff Torborg, Don Kessinger, Jim Fregosi Jerry Manuel or even tony LaRussa. I kow I'm missing afew but I'm too lazy to look them up for managers since the late 70's. Ozzie's teams have been to the playoffs more times than all of the others combined or at least close to it.

 

But in what way is the White Sox winning due to Ozzie Guillen's managing? Being associated with winning doesn't make you the cause of it. Did Robert Horry carry Houston, LA, and San Antonio to titles?

Edited January 26, 2010 by MattZakrowski

[kapkomet]

But in what way is the White Sox winning due to Ozzie Guillen's managing. Being associated with winning doesn't make you the cause of it. Did Robert Horry carry Houston, LA, and San Antonio to titles?

 

Yes. Clutch!

[Kyyle23]

LOL @ JimH trying to drag people into fights on the chicagonow board.

 

"Im right here, Im not hiding...."

[Dick Allen]

Yes, the Twins have capable starters, but I wouldn't say they're nearly as good as the front 4 the Sox will send out there. The Sox should also have a good bullpen, especially combined with a really strong rotation. They have the two most talented players in the division in Morneau and Mauer, but the Sox have some pretty good talent too.

 

As I have said 1000 times, I have concerns about the DH. But when people bring up Kotsay/Jones/Vizquel/Nix, it's almost as if they're thinking all four of those guys will be in the lineup together at the same time. This is one spot out of 9 we're talking about. And while I share the same concerns on that one spot in the lineup, I think we're drastically overstating the impact it's going to have. They would probably be better with a sure bat in that spot, but it is not going to mean everything.

 

I will say this now, and you can tell me I'm wrong if it doesn't work out, but I think this lineup will do a much better job than people realize. And I say that because I think Quentin and Rios get back to where they need to be. This offense will live and die by what those two contribute. I believe that when we look back on the season in September, if it is an offensive failure (or success), it will be mainly because of those two guys or because of what Konerko does or doesn't do. It won't be because of who the DH isn't.

 

If I'm wrong about that, I'll wear it.

Its one spot that can be fixed cheaply right now. Why wait for the failure? Andruw Jones is a bum. Mark Kotsay is no good either. If Quentin and Rios get back to where they were great, but why, if you can make your team better and can easily afford it do you pass? And why as fans of the team should anyone accept the BS? Why just try to be a little better than the teams in your division? Why not try to be the best you can possibly be? If KW and JR left this entirely up to Ozzie and still think he is wrong, and didn't use their authority, shame on them. I'm hoping they have another move because if they are seriously going with the current plan, its going to work out as well as Erstad and Alomar and Colon part II (although I endorsed that one) and Griffey and Wise as a leadoff man every day CF. Its dumb.

[iamshack]

Probably because Quentin and Rios two guys, not one, and they didn't contribute anything like what they should have last year. There is expected production from those two guys that the Sox didn't get in 2009.

 

I don't consider there to be 5 X-factors because I think there is every reason to think Teahen will have a decent year now that he should have some comfort and won't be getting jerked around (some guys respond to that comfort, by the way) and that Pierre will continue be what he's been. I don't consider Ramirez or Beckham to be X-factors either. Nor AJ. The only real doubts I have are with Quentin and Rios who would've been expected to bring in the production from the middle of the order along with PK. Those are your big boys right there. This is nothing new. This has been the case since December.

 

Seriously? You don't consider them to be X-Factors because why? Because you just don't?

 

Yet you are going to raise doubts about the guy with the career .961 OPS over 19 seasons? I understand he is declining, but his walk rate has held steady and is SLG will still be in the .450 range if that continues to decline as it has.

 

So you're going to trust Rios/Beckham/Quentin/Teahan/Pierre but we don't really have a need for the guy who will most likely put up the .825-.850 OPS?

 

 

 

[iamshack]

Its one spot that can be fixed cheaply right now. Why wait for the failure? Andruw Jones is a bum. Mark Kotsay is no good either. If Quentin and Rios get back to where they were great, but why, if you can make your team better and can easily afford it do you pass? And why as fans of the team should anyone accept the BS? Why just try to be a little better than the teams in your division? Why not try to be the best you can possibly be? If KW and JR left this entirely up to Ozzie and still think he is wrong, and didn't use their authority, shame on them. I'm hoping they have another move because if they are seriously going with the current plan, its going to work out as well as Erstad and Alomar and Colon part II (although I endorsed that one) and Griffey and Wise as a leadoff man every day CF. Its dumb.

Whoa! We agree again!

[Thad Bosley]

What argument has Ozzie or Kenny made to substantiate leaving a very important and substantial middle-part-of-the-line-up position to the very questionable combo of Jones/Kotsay/VIZQUEL/Nix? I still don't think I've heard that yet. Yes, if we're "rotating" the likes of two or three even league regulars into this mix, you might be able to make a case for this philosophy. But at the moment we seem to be talking about nothing less than a bag of balls who have done nothing but to garner skepticism and concern at the very least, based simply on their performance of the past few years. The only thing I can even remotely get my mind around is that Guillen thinks that Andruw Jones will be the surprise of '10, and he doesn't want to put anything in the way of a platoon in front of him to get in the way of his former Brave comrade to get in the way of that.

[jphat007]

Somebody better be accountable for this bulls*** when we have the worst offense in the league. I haven't felt this bad about a team pre-season starting since before 2000. Our offense is going to be THAT bad

[Dick Allen]

LOL @ JimH trying to drag people into fights on the chicagonow board.

 

"Im right here, Im not hiding...."

 

I wonder if he even realizes the irony in the garbage he spews. He claims he knows Mrs. fathom. My condolences to her.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Dick Allen

[YonderLaroche]

Somebody better be accountable for this bulls*** when we have the worst offense in the league. I haven't felt this bad about a team pre-season starting since before 2000. Our offense is going to be THAT bad

 

Really? Dewayne Wise last year? Getz rookie year last year? Josh Fields?

 

Jermaine Dye - Alex Rios

Josh Fields - Gordon Beckham

Chris Getz - Mark Teahen

Paul Konerko - PK

A.J. Pierzynski - AJ

Carlos Quentin - Healthy CQ

Alexei Ramirez - Alexei

Jim Thome - Jones

Dewayne Wise - Pierre

 

Defense will be WAY better, OBP will be better, faster, and no more 3/4/5/6 station to station of CQ/PK/Dye/Thome.

 

I'm not too thrilled about Teahen, but hopefully he can put up solid avg and will stay healthy compared to Getz. OF defense is way better (Wise was good, but Pods sucked.). This team needs change, and its getting it... though I'd rather of brought in Orlando Hudson and Damon over Teahen/Jones/Kotsay, but I'm not GM.

[PeavyTime]

JOY TO THE WORLD!!!! I just locked in the White Sox to win it all at 30 to 1! This made my day

[fathom]

Of all the stuff JimH said there, I actually agree that getting guys like Konerko, Quentin, and Ramirez fewer ABs over the course of the season could really help them. Maybe we'll see more consistency during the second half of the season, something we haven't had in a decade it seemsIt's funny that it might look to some that I really wanted Thome back, which couldn't be more false. I'm more disappointed that it seems it will be harder for KW/Ozzie to bring in someone like Blalock, Branyan, or Gomes now.

[Chicago White Sox]

Rongey, who would Jones or Kotsay seriously start for right now? They are bench players, 4th OF's. Jones hasn't been a good starter since 2006 and 2007 since being a starter at all. Kotsay hasn't been a starter since 2006 while putting up 4th OF type numbers.

 

Jones has at least been good in the past but it's been 4 years since he a was good. Are we counting on him to be good again just because he is supposed to be in good shape? If he was in such great shape and ready to be good again, wouldn't another team have been clamoring for him or Kotsay this offseason?

Let's put it this way. One half of our DH platoon was acquired for Brian Anderson last year and the other is being paid half as much as Anderson, who is now a reserve outfield for the Royals. That should put into perspective the lack of resources we are actually putting into the DH spot.

 

Also, I don't care if Kotsay and/or Jones could start in the OF for an awful team like the Pirates, they have no business getting semi-regular at-bats as our DH for a team that hopes to contend. Is there a chance Jones (and to a lesser extent Kotsay) has a solid year? Of course there is, but the odds are so low, why even take the chance when a better option is available at a reasonable price.

 

Rongey - I remember listening to you defend Dwayne Wise at the beginning of last year. After watching him struggle during the first couple weeks of the season, you kept telling us listeners that we had to give him more time. You said he may not amount to anything, but it was too early to come to any conclusions. Why in god's name did we have to give him more time? Anyone with half a brain knew he sucked in the minors and would continue to suck in the pros. This is no different than the rotating DH bulls***. Why wait to be dissapointed when we can use the last four years right now to predict poor production from Kotsay and Jones out of the DH spot. I really hope I'm wrong and they make me look like an asshole, but the evidence is strongly against them being productive. Regardless, this "versatility" idea for the DH spot is completely stupid without a ninth quality batter, and as of today, neither Kotsay or Jones counts as one.

[jphat007]

Really? Dewayne Wise last year? Getz rookie year last year? Josh Fields?

 

Jermaine Dye - Alex Rios

Josh Fields - Gordon Beckham

Chris Getz - Mark Teahen

Paul Konerko - PK

A.J. Pierzynski - AJ

Carlos Quentin - Healthy CQ

Alexei Ramirez - Alexei

Jim Thome - Jones

Dewayne Wise - Pierre

 

Defense will be WAY better, OBP will be better, faster, and no more 3/4/5/6 station to station of CQ/PK/Dye/Thome.

 

I'm not too thrilled about Teahen, but hopefully he can put up solid avg and will stay healthy compared to Getz. OF defense is way better (Wise was good, but Pods sucked.). This team needs change, and its getting it... though I'd rather of brought in Orlando Hudson and Damon over Teahen/Jones/Kotsay, but I'm not GM.

 

Our offense was bad even when we got Pods and Beckham up.

 

[macsandz]

Let's put it this way. One half of our DH platoon was acquired for Brian Anderson last year and the other is being paid half as much as Anderson, who is now a reserve outfield for the Royals. That should put into perspective the lack of resources we are actually putting into the DH spot.

 

Also, I don't care if Kotsay and/or Jones could start in the OF for an awful team like the Pirates, they have no business getting semi-regular at-bats as our DH for a team that hopes to contend. Is there a chance Jones (and to a lesser extent Kotsay) has a solid year? Of course there is, but the odds are so low, why even take the chance when a better option is available at a reasonable price.

 

Rongey - I remember listening to you defend Dwayne Wise at the beginning of last year. After watching him struggle during the first couple weeks of the season, you kept telling us listeners that we had to give him more time. You said he may not amount to anything, but it was too early to come to any conclusions. Why in god's name did we have to give him more time? Anyone with half a brain knew he sucked in the minors and would continue to suck in the pros. This is no different than the rotating DH bulls***. Why wait to be dissapointed when we can use the last four years right now to predict poor production from Kotsay and Jones out of the DH spot. I really hope I'm wrong and they make me look like an asshole, but the evidence is strongly against them being productive. Regardless, this "versatility" idea for the DH spot is completely stupid without a ninth quality batter, and as of today, neither Kotsay or Jones counts as one.

 

Rongey was only saying don't BOOO Wise like a bunch of Neanderthals at the beginning of last year.

[fathom]

After looking at some stats from last year, I had no idea how many of our core hitters thrived against LHP.

- Alexei hit .370 with an OPS of .960 vs LHP

- Konerko had an OPS over 1

- Beckham's OPS was .890

- Rios traditionally is strong against LHP, and was performing well against them prior to the trade

- Nix's OPS was .822, while homering 8 times in 121 ABs vs LHP

 

This makes Kotsay's performance in 2010 even more important, as there's a plethora of RHP in the AL Central. So what's the proposed lineup if you platoon Jones/Kotsay?

 

1- Pierre

2- Beckham

3- Quentin

4- Konerko

5- Rios

6- Teahen

7- Ramirez

8- AJP

9- Kotsay (Jones would probably bat higher vs LHP, while Castro would bat 9th)

[macsandz]

" I haven't felt this bad about a team pre-season starting since before 2000. Our offense is going to be THAT bad"

 

The Sox went 95-67, won the AL Central and had a a VERY productive offense in 2000,...LMAO.

 

[macsandz]

After looking at some stats from last year, I had no idea how many of our core hitters thrived against LHP.

- Alexei hit .370 with an OPS of .960 vs LHP

- Konerko had an OPS over 1

- Beckham's OPS was .890

- Rios traditionally is strong against LHP, and was performing well against them prior to the trade

- Nix's OPS was .822, while homering 8 times in 121 ABs vs LHP

 

This makes Kotsay's performance in 2010 even more important, as there's a plethora of RHP in the AL Central. So what's the proposed lineup if you platoon Jones/Kotsay?

 

1- Pierre

2- Beckham

3- Quentin

4- Konerko

5- Rios

6- Teahen

7- Ramirez

8- AJP

9- Kotsay (Jones would probably bat higher vs LHP, while Castro would bat 9th)

 

 

This is the goods:...

 

1- Pierre

2- Beckham

3- Quentin

4- Konerko

5- AJP

6- Rios

7- Teahen

8- Jones/Kostay

9- Ramirez

 

How much will it help Pierre to not have a pitcher hitting in front of him, but Alexei instead?

[Ranger]

Seriously? You don't consider them to be X-Factors because why? Because you just don't?

 

Yet you are going to raise doubts about the guy with the career .961 OPS over 19 seasons? I understand he is declining, but his walk rate has held steady and is SLG will still be in the .450 range if that continues to decline as it has.

 

So you're going to trust Rios/Beckham/Quentin/Teahan/Pierre but we don't really have a need for the guy who will most likely put up the .825-.850 OPS?

 

I thought I was explicit with why I didn't consider certain players X-factors. And I think it doesn't need to be explained why I think Quentin and Rios are. Yes, I feel like we have a pretty good idea what we'll get from Beckham, Teahen, and Pierre and it's not "just because". Do I need to tell you why I think that of Beckham? Or Pierre? And I told you what I thought of Teahen, except I left out the part that he's leaving a huge park for a smaller one, which should help his OPS.

 

Rongey - I remember listening to you defend Dwayne Wise at the beginning of last year. After watching him struggle during the first couple weeks of the season, you kept telling us listeners that we had to give him more time. You said he may not amount to anything, but it was too early to come to any conclusions. Why in god's name did we have to give him more time? Anyone with half a brain knew he sucked in the minors and would continue to suck in the pros. This is no different than the rotating DH bulls***. Why wait to be dissapointed when we can use the last four years right now to predict poor production from Kotsay and Jones out of the DH spot. I really hope I'm wrong and they make me look like an asshole, but the evidence is strongly against them being productive. Regardless, this "versatility" idea for the DH spot is completely stupid without a ninth quality batter, and as of today, neither Kotsay or Jones counts as one.

 

Apparently you weren't listening to what I was saying. But this guy was:

 

Rongey was only saying don't BOOO Wise like a bunch of Neanderthals at the beginning of last year.

 

To be more specific, I was saying that booing him 3 ABs into the ****ing season was pretty ridiculous.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Ranger

[whitesoxfan101]

The most frusterating part of this "rotation DH" debacle is that absolutely nobody will be held accountable for it when it invariably fails. Hopefully, it doesn't fail enough to directly cost the Sox a playoff birth.

[Ranger]

" I haven't felt this bad about a team pre-season starting since before 2000. Our offense is going to be THAT bad"

 

The Sox went 95-67, won the AL Central and had a a VERY productive offense in 2000,...LMAO.

 

Who said that? That team scored almost 1000 runs.

[fathom]

Pretty sure jphat meant he hasn't felt this way about our lineup during this decade. It's going to be interesting when the Twins are the team hitting 200 homers, and the Sox are playing small ball.

[whitesoxfan101]

Pretty sure jphat meant he hasn't felt this way about our lineup during this decade. It's going to be interesting when the Twins are the team hitting 200 homers, and the Sox are playing small ball.

 

Can we say the Twins will hit a lot of homers for sure without seeing how their park plays yet? And I don't have a problem with the Sox playing small ball. I do have a problem with them telling a guy who OPS'd .850 against right handed pitching last year that they can't get him enough at bats because they have to rotate 3 guys who can't hit (except Kotsay against righties, and his numbers in that category were not as good as Thome's last year) in the DH spot though.

Edited January 26, 2010 by whitesoxfan101

[iamshack]

I thought I was explicit with why I didn't consider certain players X-factors. And I think it doesn't need to be explained why I think Quentin and Rios are. Yes, I feel like we have a pretty good idea what we'll get from Beckham, Teahen, and Pierre and it's not "just because". Do I need to tell you why I think that of Beckham? Or Pierre? And I told you what I thought of Teahen, except I left out the part that he's leaving a huge park for a smaller one, which should help his OPS.

I don't think you were explicit at all. I think you basically said they are not X-Factors because you simply did not believe them to be X-Factors, which, sorry, is just not an acceptable answer.

 

Q and Rios are certainly X-Factors. Beckham is a second year player entering his first full season. I think he has all the talent in the world, but he certainly does not have a long enough resume to be able to say with any certainty what kind of numbers he will produce. Teahan, I think is fair to argue will improve over some of his previous seasons' in KC, but again, there just is not enough consistency to expect anything other than .780 - .800 OPS at best. Pierre, I can agree with you that he will probably post something in the .730-760 OPS range?

 

I mean all of these players have big question marks! That is the reason many are here, with the exception of Beckham, who is entering his first full season! These guys are the definition of X-Factor!