The Jim Thome Saga Ends

[klaus kinski]

Guillen taking Lovie Smith pills-

 

KW has to believe this a wrong move, why else delegate this to Lovie Guillen?

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

The last time I saw a Chicago team make a decision that I felt was this obviously stupid was the decision by the Cubs to sign Bradley.

I dunno, this one I think is more along the lines of starting DeWayne Wise in CF last year. Kenny, to his credit, has never, ever, ever, ever done anything in his career as stupid as the Bradley signing. On Kenny's dumbest day he's still about 10X smarter than any version of Jim Hendry you'll ever see.

 

s***, at least we traded Ely and Link for 2 years of Pierre and lots of cash, and we plan on playing him in LF. Plus Pierre is coming off a .308/.365/.392 year. And as dumb as that was, when Hendry did the same, he gave up Ricky Nolasco, Renyel Pinto, and Sergio Mitre, got 1 year of Pierre instead of 2, received no cash, and then played him in CF for 162 games. Pierre's line the previous year had been .276/.326/.354.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Thunderbolt,

 

Pray tell how the stats after July of last year showed that Thome was a better hitter than Kotsay?

 

 

Thome August: .238 .298 .500 .798

 

Kotsay August: .333 .389 .467 .856

 

Kotsay September: .324 .385 .493 .878

 

Im not even including Thome's September because it was so horrific based on sporadic performance.

 

But please given this set of data, give me an argument for how Thome was better?

Kotsay isn't anywhere near that good though, and if he was, he wouldn't have signed for $1.5M and if he did, there would be no argument over his playing time.

 

I do agree with one point that has been made, which is that Kotsay is a better bet to perform well off the bench, but the f***ed up part about it is that in Ozzie's mind the better bench player (Kotsay) should be playing regularly while the weaker bench player but better starter (Thome) should be riding the pine.

[southsider2k5]

Kotsay isn't anywhere near that good though, and if he was, he wouldn't have signed for $1.5M and if he did, there would be no argument over his playing time.

 

I do agree with one point that has been made, which is that Kotsay is a better bet to perform well off the bench, but the f***ed up part about it is that in Ozzie's mind the better bench player (Kotsay) should be playing regularly while the weaker bench player but better starter (Thome) should be riding the pine.

 

Thome was supposedly willing to sign for less than Kotsay...

[Soxbadger]

Kotsay may not be "that" good.

 

But I believe that Thome may be "that" bad this year.

 

He is getting older, his bat speed looked like slightly slower last year and I cant imagine it will be any better this year.

 

If Thome is such a valuable player, why is no one else signing him for the bargain price?

 

He just didnt look like he had much left in the tank.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Kotsay may not be "that" good.

 

But I believe that Thome may be "that" bad this year.

 

He is getting older, his bat speed looked like slightly slower last year and I cant imagine it will be any better this year.

 

If Thome is such a valuable player, why is no one else signing him for the bargain price?

 

He just didnt look like he had much left in the tank.

Because there's only 14 teams in the AL, he has to DH, he wants to win, and he prefers to stay in the ALC. The Yankees and Red Sox don't need him, neither do the Angels, and the Sox don't even want him. I'm sure he would have been signed long ago had he started the offseason asking for the same meager amount and had he been willing to be a bench player anywhere. You can say the same thing about a lot of players still out there that you said about Thome.

[Soxbadger]

I think the simpler answer is generally the better answer.

 

No one is signing Thome because he doesnt have very much left in the tank and showed in LA that he cant be counted on as a bench player.

[NorthSideSox72]

I think the simpler answer is generally the better answer.

 

No one is signing Thome because he doesnt have very much left in the tank and showed in LA that he cant be counted on as a bench player.

You are completely missing the supply side of the argument here. There are a grand total of 14 DH jobs - and only about 3 of them were even potentially open - and Thome will likely get one of them, because he is among the best available. Kotsay on the other hand, is in a job market with 90 jobs (starting outfielders), and STILL hasn't been considered for one in years.

 

There is no contest in terms of who has more value, in Thome versus Kotsay, in terms of getting majority at bats at the DH slot.

 

[dmbjeff]

You are completely missing the supply side of the argument here. There are a grand total of 14 DH jobs - and only about 3 of them were even potentially open - and Thome will likely get one of them, because he is among the best available. Kotsay on the other hand, is in a job market with 90 jobs (starting outfielders), and STILL hasn't been considered for one in years.

 

There is no contest in terms of who has more value, in Thome versus Kotsay, in terms of getting majority at bats at the DH slot.

 

Great post and your point is exactly spot on. Why you would consider kotsay for 65% of the platoon ab's over thome is sad and rediculous. Kotsay couldn't hold a starting gig as an outfielder, but in addition, he hasn't even held the platoon of an outfield job but now is expected to have the skills to hold it at a more valuable offesive position like DH.

[Soxbadger]

I disagree completely.

 

I understand supply and demand, I also understand that the supply of players who can play DH is extremely larger than the supply of players who can play OF, 1b and DH.

 

Kotsay on the other hand, is in a job market with 90 jobs (starting outfielders), and STILL hasn't been considered for one in years.

 

In 2008 Kotsay started for Atlanta, 88 games, 345 ab's. Besides for being injured in 2007, Kotsay started every season prior to 2008.

 

So your saying because Kotsay didnt start for Boston, last year, he hasnt been a starter for "years"?

 

Its unlikely Thome would have started for the Red Sox last year, and clearly the White Sox felt Kotsay was > than Thome.

 

So outside of perhaps the Twins, where will Thome be starting?

 

Do people even know who Mark Kotsay is?

 

The guy started every year through 2008.

 

How is that not holding a starting position in MLB?

Edited January 26, 2010 by Soxbadger

[ScottyDo]

Mark Teahen is a complementary, bench player on most playoff teams. Maybe he could start for the Twins, but there aren't many upper division teams that would be giving him the starting job without any competition in Spring Training.

 

Same thing with Juan Pierre, how many teams that are legit playoff contenders would go with him as their leadoff hitter? Even if he was playing for those teams, it would be as the 8th (NL) or 9th place hitter.

 

As mentioned before, Jones and Kotsay wouldn't be part of a DH platoon for all but the 3-5 worst teams in the majors either...not even taking into consideration our home ballpark. Yes, the Rangers have a launching pad, but they also (have) had a stronger overall offense and there wasn't as much pressure on Jones to perform as there will be in Chicago in April and May.

 

Then you have the Rios enigma...I'm really curious how many other GM's would have taken on that reclamation project at those numbers? Anyone besides KW?

 

We could have put Rick Ankiel out in CF for 1/5th of the cost on a one-year contract, signed Vladimir Guerrero/N. Johnson/Matsui/Damon as our DH and had money left over to solidify the bullpen in the form of someone comparable to Dotel but with more of a history than Pena.

Ankiel/Damon/Dotel (etc.) or Alex Rios???

 

That questionable decision is probably the biggest single factor preventing us from spending money right now on a legit DH. forcing us to do things on the cheap again (see Wise/Anderson/Owens 2009).

 

There's one other factor here, too. Mitchell and Jordan Danks BOTH profile as better CFers than corner outfielders, the presence of Alex Rios in CF theoretically blocks both of those guys.

I disagree with this assessment of Mark Teahen, as someone who has watched his career for a while now.

 

Mark Teahen is a very talented player who has enjoyed only limited success in the losing environment of Kansas City. He has performed far below his abilities and I think is as prime a candidate as any to benefit enormously from a change of scenery. Of course, he would be a bench player in New York or Boston because they are loaded, but if you view Los Angeles (LAD or LAA) or Seattle or Texas or St. Louis as playoff-type teams, I don't think you put him in the "bench player" category. Personally, I think he will be a solid starter here.

[MattZakrowski]

If you don't give him credit to help with the winning don't discredit him for the losing. He was the manager who oversaw the winning. How else can you determine the ultimate value of a manager? In the end winning is the only thing that matters. It doesn't matter how you do it, as long as it is within the rules. Is Phil Jackson a poor basketball caoch because he only won with Jordan or Kobe?

 

Guillen has won while here and no matter how you care to look at it, he is the best manager we've had in a long time.

 

I didn't discredit him for losing, I discredited him for not putting his teams in the best positions to win games (Wise leading off, etc.). As for Phil Jackson, his Bulls run was when I was a kid, and I really only watch sparing playoff basketball now. I don't think having great players means you can't be a great manager, but winning doesn't prove that your a good manager, just like losing doesn't prove you're a bad manager. The fact is, managers in baseball have very little impact with the exception of managing pitching staffs, and choosing who plays each day. I think in many instances that Guillen has made mistakes in regards to both of these.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

The idea of Kotsay DHing at all is dumb. If Kotsay is in the lineup then he should be playing 1B with Konerko DHing, or he should be in RF with Quentin DHing, or in LF with Pierre DHing. It's the same thing with Vizquel, who Ozzie has mentioned as a DH candidate. If Omar is out there then the DH needs to be Alexei, Beckham, or Teahen. Wasting the defensive value of a better defensive player is f***ing pointless.

[NorthSideSox72]

I disagree completely.

 

I understand supply and demand, I also understand that the supply of players who can play DH is extremely larger than the supply of players who can play OF, 1b and DH.

 

 

 

In 2008 Kotsay started for Atlanta, 88 games, 345 ab's. Besides for being injured in 2007, Kotsay started every season prior to 2008.

 

So your saying because Kotsay didnt start for Boston, last year, he hasnt been a starter for "years"?

 

Its unlikely Thome would have started for the Red Sox last year, and clearly the White Sox felt Kotsay was > than Thome.

 

So outside of perhaps the Twins, where will Thome be starting?

 

Do people even know who Mark Kotsay is?

 

The guy started every year through 2008.

 

How is that not holding a starting position in MLB?

The last year Kotsay was a full time starter was 2006. He's played part time the last three seasons.

 

 

[Steve9347]

The last year Kotsay was a full time starter was 2006. He's played part time the last three seasons.

Shhhhh. Badger doesn't like facts!

[Soxbadger]

No he was a full time starter in 2007 he was just injured and underwent surgery in ST.

 

 

Mark Kotsay was acquired by the Braves to be the starting CF. He played 88 games and had 345 PA.

 

That averages over 4 PA per game. That is the definition of a starter.

 

So contrary to your "opinion" Kotsay has been a starter through 2008, until his trade to Boston to be a bench player.

 

Steve,

 

No I dont like lies.

 

How can you say 88 games and 345 pa's is not a starter?

 

Or that when Kotsay missed 2007 due to injury and then came back to start, he wasnt a starter? (56 games 226 Pa's, averaging over 4 per game)

 

I hope that you were being sarcastic.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Soxbadger

[NorthSideSox72]

No he was a full time starter in 2007 he was just injured and underwent surgery in ST.

 

 

Mark Kotsay was acquired by the Braves to be the starting CF. He played 88 games and had 345 PA.

 

That averages over 4 PA per game. That is the definition of a starter.

 

So contrary to your "opinion" Kotsay has been a starter through 2008, until his trade to Boston to be a bench player.

 

Steve,

 

No I dont like lies.

 

How can you say 88 games and 345 pa's is not a starter?

 

Or that when Kotsay missed 2007 due to injury and then came back to start, he wasnt a starter? (56 games 226 Pa's, averaging over 4 per game)

 

I hope that you were being sarcastic.

Last I checked, there were 162 games in a season. 130-150 games would be a starter. 88 games is a roving OF, and if you look more closely, you will see he did in fact play multiple OF positions that year.

 

[Soxbadger]

HE WAS TRADED MIDSEASON TO BOSTON.

 

(Last part was unnecessary)

 

But come on, he played 90 games through August for the Braves.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/...b&year=2008

 

Here is the game log so you can see how he starts almost every day at CF.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Soxbadger

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I disagree completely.

 

I understand supply and demand, I also understand that the supply of players who can play DH is extremely larger than the supply of players who can play OF, 1b and DH.

 

 

 

In 2008 Kotsay started for Atlanta, 88 games, 345 ab's. Besides for being injured in 2007, Kotsay started every season prior to 2008.

 

So your saying because Kotsay didnt start for Boston, last year, he hasnt been a starter for "years"?

 

Its unlikely Thome would have started for the Red Sox last year, and clearly the White Sox felt Kotsay was > than Thome.

 

So outside of perhaps the Twins, where will Thome be starting?

 

Do people even know who Mark Kotsay is?

 

The guy started every year through 2008.

 

How is that not holding a starting position in MLB?

1. Kotsay was a starter mainly as a CF, and a pretty good one at that. In CF the offensive standards are much lower, and his ability to handle the bat made him well-suited to hitting at the top of the lineup, specifically in the 2 slot. Because of his production + defensive ability + lineup fit, he was able to hold down jobs. Kotsay however isn't a CF anymore.

 

2. The Sox feel that Kotsay is more versatile than Thome, which is true. I don't think anyone even on their side believes Kotsay is a better hitter than Thome. The Sox feel that their offense is just fine right now, which is crazy, but that's what they think. They don't feel they need extra offense, they feel they need extra versatility. Hence my sig.

 

3. Thome isn't going to start at DH over Kubel, that's just not a smart thing for the Twins to do given Kubel's upside. current production, and the progression he's made since getting healthy. That's not a knock on Thome. Kotsay wouldn't start over anyone on that entire team despite his versatility, because every position Kotsay plays, there is someone else much better.

 

4. Kotsay is a very nice bench player, but his best years are behind him and he has never been a power threat, or a walk threat either. Walks + power generally go a lot further than batting average driven by singles, and walks + power is Thome's game. BTW, you can compare Kotsay's terrible production in Boston with Thome's terrible stint in LA. Neither stints are indicative of either player's true ability, and if Kotsay can rebound here given some regular AB's then Thome should be capable of doing the same elsewhere.

[ThunderBolt]

The last year Kotsay was a full time starter was 2006. He's played part time the last three seasons.

He had knees back then too.

[fathom]

I wonder how the mood of this thread will change if Dye signs with the Cubs today like it's being rumored.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

If the Twins get Thome and the Sox get Dye then this will be a sad, sad day for Sox fans - and it will put Ozzie and Kenny both on the hotseat (at least with the fans) should this offense suck as it's expected to.

[Kyyle23]

He had knees back then too.

 

I think it has always been Kotsays back, not his knees

[YonderLaroche]

Cubs sign Xavier Nady over Dye pending physical... may fail because of elbow. (Tommy John last year)

[fathom]

Cubs sign Xavier Nady over Dye pending physical... may fail because of elbow. (Tommy John last year)

 

Nady's a very good player, but I'm happy Cubs didn't sign Dye just so I don't have to root against Jermaine.