The Jim Thome Saga Ends

[Soxbadger]

1. Kotsay was a starter mainly as a CF, and a pretty good one at that. In CF the offensive standards are much lower, and his ability to handle the bat made him well-suited to hitting at the top of the lineup, specifically in the 2 slot. Because of his production + defensive ability + lineup fit, he was able to hold down jobs. Kotsay however isn't a CF anymore.

 

2. The Sox feel that Kotsay is more versatile than Thome, which is true. I don't think anyone even on their side believes Kotsay is a better hitter than Thome. The Sox feel that their offense is just fine right now, which is crazy, but that's what they think. They don't feel they need extra offense, they feel they need extra versatility. Hence my sig.

 

3. Thome isn't going to start at DH over Kubel, that's just not a smart thing for the Twins to do given Kubel's upside. current production, and the progression he's made since getting healthy. That's not a knock on Thome. Kotsay wouldn't start over anyone on that entire team despite his versatility, because every position Kotsay plays, there is someone else much better.

 

4. Kotsay is a very nice bench player, but his best years are behind him and he has never been a power threat, or a walk threat either. Walks + power generally go a lot further than batting average driven by singles, and walks + power is Thome's game. BTW, you can compare Kotsay's terrible production in Boston with Thome's terrible stint in LA. Neither stints are indicative of either player's true ability, and if Kotsay can rebound here given some regular AB's then Thome should be capable of doing the same elsewhere.

 

1. May not be a CF, but he can play the field. Thome could not play the field, so Kotsay still holds a distinct defensive advantage. Even .1 > 0

 

2. Thome may be slightly better offensively than Kotsay this year, its hard to tell given Thome's decline over the past few years. I think that when you account that Thome offers nothing outside of offense, there is a much greater risk with him as an asset compared to Kotsay. At least if Kotsay hits for nothing, he can do something productive.

 

3. Kotsay may not start, but Im pretty sure that he could find a place on the bench for the Twins. Which is the role he will have on the Sox, unless he plays like the end of last year, and then Im fine with him starting every day.

 

4. How can you say Kotsay's best years are behind him when we are talking about Thome who turns 40 by the end of the season? Kotsay just turned 34, which is younger than when the Sox acquired Thome. If anything Kotsay will regress but he has a lessor chance of falling of the deep end like Thome could.

[RockRaines]

I have this thread bookmarked so we can all look back and see what ridiculous overreactions there were in here.

[Steve9347]

I hope that you were being sarcastic.

Ding ding ding.

[YonderLaroche]

1. May not be a CF, but he can play the field. Thome could not play the field, so Kotsay still holds a distinct defensive advantage. Even .1 > 0

 

2. Thome may be slightly better offensively than Kotsay this year, its hard to tell given Thome's decline over the past few years. I think that when you account that Thome offers nothing outside of offense, there is a much greater risk with him as an asset compared to Kotsay. At least if Kotsay hits for nothing, he can do something productive.

 

3. Kotsay may not start, but Im pretty sure that he could find a place on the bench for the Twins. Which is the role he will have on the Sox, unless he plays like the end of last year, and then Im fine with him starting every day.

 

4. How can you say Kotsay's best years are behind him when we are talking about Thome who turns 40 by the end of the season? Kotsay just turned 34, which is younger than when the Sox acquired Thome. If anything Kotsay will regress but he has a lessor chance of falling of the deep end like Thome could.

 

Honestly I don't want Kotsay or Thome starting on this team, and neither will. I can see Jones getting the most starts unless he bombs really.. really bad. Then a move will be made. Kotsay is on the bench to backup Konerko, Jones, and OF.

 

[caulfield12]

I disagree with this assessment of Mark Teahen, as someone who has watched his career for a while now.

 

Mark Teahen is a very talented player who has enjoyed only limited success in the losing environment of Kansas City. He has performed far below his abilities and I think is as prime a candidate as any to benefit enormously from a change of scenery. Of course, he would be a bench player in New York or Boston because they are loaded, but if you view Los Angeles (LAD or LAA) or Seattle or Texas or St. Louis as playoff-type teams, I don't think you put him in the "bench player" category. Personally, I think he will be a solid starter here.

 

 

We'll see. I lived in Kansas City from late 1996 through 2005, and then 2006-2007...so I've seen plenty of Royals' games firsthand or on the local network.

 

Many Royals' players have succeeded during those lean years despite the "culture of losing." Jeff Montgomery, Kevin Appier, Carlos Beltran, Mike Sweeney, Jermaine Dye, J. Damon, Jose Rosado, Soria, Greinke, Joe Randa, DeJesus, etc. Heck, even Carlos Febles and Rey Sanchez have looked really good for seasons, not to mention Angel Berroa at SS.

 

Maybe the "culture of losing" argument can be applied to the failures of all their first round draft picks, including Alex Gordon, but I'm not buying this argument entirely...largely because he's not going to be allowed to be a "complementary" player like Geoff Blum in Chicago, he's going to be hitting 5th, 6th or 7th, and that's what scares me.

 

Yes, he had one torrid half-season, but the rest of his career has been pretty pedestrian for a corner infielder, to say the least.

 

If you look at what we've gotten from all the Royals' castoffs over the last 10 years, it hasn't been a great "plus" overall. Of course, that's not a surprise, really. Just like it won't be a surprise if Brian Anderson, Josh Fields, Getz and Pods disappear from the baseball world within 2 years. Getz has a chance to hold on as a utility player somewhere, but not in a starting role for very many teams.

 

 

[Steve9347]

We'll see. I lived in Kansas City from late 1996 through 2005, and then 2006-2007...so I've seen plenty of Royals' games firsthand or on the local network.

 

Many Royals' players have succeeded during those lean years despite the "culture of losing." Jeff Montgomery, Kevin Appier, Carlos Beltran, Mike Sweeney, Jermaine Dye, J. Damon, Jose Rosado, Soria, Greinke, Joe Randa, DeJesus, etc. Heck, even Carlos Febles and Rey Sanchez have looked really good for seasons, not to mention Angel Berroa at SS.

 

Maybe the "culture of losing" argument can be applied to the failures of all their first round draft picks, including Alex Gordon, but I'm not buying this argument entirely...largely because he's not going to be allowed to be a "complementary" player like Geoff Blum in Chicago, he's going to be hitting 5th, 6th or 7th, and that's what scares me.

 

Yes, he had one torrid half-season, but the rest of his career has been pretty pedestrian for a corner infielder, to say the least.

 

If you look at what we've gotten from all the Royals' castoffs over the last 10 years, it hasn't been a great "plus" overall. Of course, that's not a surprise, really. Just like it won't be a surprise if Brian Anderson, Josh Fields, Getz and Pods disappear from the baseball world within 2 years. Getz has a chance to hold on as a utility player somewhere, but not in a starting role for very many teams.

This is a pretty awesome post.

[MattZakrowski]

1. May not be a CF, but he can play the field. Thome could not play the field, so Kotsay still holds a distinct defensive advantage. Even .1 > 0

 

2. Thome may be slightly better offensively than Kotsay this year, its hard to tell given Thome's decline over the past few years. I think that when you account that Thome offers nothing outside of offense, there is a much greater risk with him as an asset compared to Kotsay. At least if Kotsay hits for nothing, he can do something productive.

 

3. Kotsay may not start, but Im pretty sure that he could find a place on the bench for the Twins. Which is the role he will have on the Sox, unless he plays like the end of last year, and then Im fine with him starting every day.

 

4. How can you say Kotsay's best years are behind him when we are talking about Thome who turns 40 by the end of the season? Kotsay just turned 34, which is younger than when the Sox acquired Thome. If anything Kotsay will regress but he has a lessor chance of falling of the deep end like Thome could.

 

If Jim Thome's only slightly better than Mark Kotsay offensively, then Walter Payton was only slightly better than Curtis Enis at football. And Kotsay's best years are behind him, just like 99% of all 34 year old athletes.

[Soxbadger]

Hyperbole wont get far with me.

 

But Ill go ahead and say that today Curtis Enis is the better football player than Walter Payton. Granted Walter Payton is dead, but the point remains.

 

Just because Thome in his prime was far better than Kotsay, does not prove that Thome this year is going to be anything more than slightly better than Kotsay.

 

What exact statistic from last year makes you believe that Jim Thome is "significantly" better than Kotsay?

[MattZakrowski]

Hyperbole wont get far with me.

 

But Ill go ahead and say that today Curtis Enis is the better football player than Walter Payton. Granted Walter Payton is dead, but the point remains.

 

Just because Thome in his prime was far better than Kotsay, does not prove that Thome this year is going to be anything more than slightly better than Kotsay.

 

What exact statistic from last year makes you believe that Jim Thome is "significantly" better than Kotsay?

 

Is it bad that I laughed really hard at that?

 

But exact statistics? 2009(Thome, then Kotsay):

 

wOBA .367 .309

OBP .366 .327

SLG .481 .390

[YonderLaroche]

Is it bad that I laughed really hard at that?

 

But exact statistics? 2009(Thome, then Kotsay):

 

wOBA .367 .309

OBP .366 .327

SLG .481 .390

 

Yes... Thome is a better hitter than Kotsay. But with Quentin/Konerko we don't need Thome/Dye because 08/09 is proof having four slow power hitters = fail. Kotsay can play the field and sit on the bench, Thome is still a great hitter that can start everyday (At DH only). If Konerko was gone, I gurantee they would of brought back Thome (who will once again be more productive than PK if he starts everyday)

 

My guess is Jones will get the majority of playing time, and DH will be open to Quentin if his plantar fasciitis bothers him again.. it will also give players a day off from the field. (Vizquel starts, Alexei can DH, ETC..)

Edited January 26, 2010 by b-Rye

[Ranger]

The Twins usually have X Factors because they can't afford more consistency. This occurs because of their payroll constraints.

 

As for the trades, you're missing the point. I am not stating that these players cannot be successful. Merely that they are relative unknowns, which caused them to become available in the first place.

 

To use your examples, Thornton, Loaiza, and Contreras ALL had flaws. Certainly they experienced success here, but could you really count on them having the success they had? Probably not. They were X Factors that panned out.

 

Do not confuse my argument to claim that these players will not succeed. I am only arguing that you can not predict with any certainty that they will. Which is why acquiring a player with Thome's body of work would only serve as insurance should we not get what we are hoping for from players like Rios, Quentin, Teahan and Pierre.

 

Again, you could do this for every team in baseball and find potential flaws for multiple players to make them X-factors. There is every reason to think the players mentioned will give seasons up to their normal capabilities. I don't consider them X-factors. You may, but I don't.

 

We've got too many issues, starting with a corner infielder in Teahen that if ALL the stars are aligned can give you a 775-825 OPS, but he can also give you 675-725. Let's be charitable and say Brendan Harris is equal to Mark.

 

Ramirez and Hardy are pretty even, all things considered. Huge advantage to Beckham, our one clear positional advantage (barring a sophomore slump) over the Twins' line-up.

 

Then you have Morneau huge over Konerko, Mauer huge over AJ, Young with a slight advantage over Pierre, Span a clear advantage over Rios of 08-09 and Cuddyer being pretty even with Quentin (yes, the upside of CQ is AL MVP, and coming off the 08 season this wouldn't be a toss-up). Huge advantage to Kubel over Jones/Kotsay.

 

In other words, if Pierre/Teahen/Quentin/Rios/Jones/Kotsay perform at +25 to +50 over career norm stat levels, we'll trail the Twins by about 50-100 runs scored. That's assuming we can count on Becks, Ramirez, AJ and Konerko to do what we expect.

 

I would say a full 5/9ths of our everyday line-up is questionable, whereas the Twins have holes only at 2B and 3B.

 

The White Sox have the advantage in starting pitching, but the Twins have a lot more depth. Essentially, we have one replacement for Garcia (or anyone else going down) in Hudson (some will count Torres and Hynick, good luck with those guys over 10-15 starts). The Twins have 3-4 of their "system" guys that always seem to throw strikes and get the job done somehow. And this is based on the assumption that Liriano and Neshek, perhaps their two most effective pitchers in recent years, DO NOTHING.

 

The Twins, overall, have a deeper bullpen and also a stronger closer, although Nathan has been shaky the last two years, it's not close to the level of concern surrounding Jenks. And reports are that Putz is still a big question mark.

 

 

Mark Teahen is a complementary, bench player on most playoff teams. Maybe he could start for the Twins, but there aren't many upper division teams that would be giving him the starting job without any competition in Spring Training.

 

Same thing with Juan Pierre, how many teams that are legit playoff contenders would go with him as their leadoff hitter? Even if he was playing for those teams, it would be as the 8th (NL) or 9th place hitter.

 

As mentioned before, Jones and Kotsay wouldn't be part of a DH platoon for all but the 3-5 worst teams in the majors either...not even taking into consideration our home ballpark. Yes, the Rangers have a launching pad, but they also (have) had a stronger overall offense and there wasn't as much pressure on Jones to perform as there will be in Chicago in April and May.

 

Then you have the Rios enigma...I'm really curious how many other GM's would have taken on that reclamation project at those numbers? Anyone besides KW?

 

We could have put Rick Ankiel out in CF for 1/5th of the cost on a one-year contract, signed Vladimir Guerrero/N. Johnson/Matsui/Damon as our DH and had money left over to solidify the bullpen in the form of someone comparable to Dotel but with more of a history than Pena.

 

Ankiel/Damon/Dotel (etc.) or Alex Rios???

 

That questionable decision is probably the biggest single factor preventing us from spending money right now on a legit DH. forcing us to do things on the cheap again (see Wise/Anderson/Owens 2009).

 

There's one other factor here, too. Mitchell and Jordan Danks BOTH profile as better CFers than corner outfielders, the presence of Alex Rios in CF theoretically blocks both of those guys.

 

On your last point, Rios can always shift to a corner if necessary. He's done it before.

 

But onto the bolded statements. I think you consider the Twins a potential playoff team, correct? You then equate Brendan Harris to Mark Teahen (and I agree, that's being generous, but not to the guy you think), yet you say Teahen couldn't start on most playoff teams. There is nothing worse than "playoff teams can't have _____ as a starter" arguments. It's baseball, yes they can. People used to say the same thing about Juan Uribe. You can look at just about every playoff team every year (except the Yankees, because their worst infielder was Robinson Cano) and you can find a starter that you might consider a bum. It's just a poor argument. IT can happen and it does happen.

 

I disagree on the Twins bullpen, because the Sox have a pretty solid 3 on the back end. And while Nathan is a very good closer, I don't think that he's so much better than Jenks that it makes that much of a difference. The overall pitching (from top to bottom) for the Sox was far better than what the Twins put out there last year, and on paper, it hasn't changed in the Twins favor this offseason.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Ranger

[Soxbadger]

I cant seem to get woba for Kotsay only on the White Sox.

 

Ill definitely concede that Thome would hit for more power,

 

But the last 2 months Kotsay's obp was almost .400, compared to Thome's being below .300.

 

I think that Thome fell off a production cliff, and I dont see him rebounding.

[LittleHurt05]

But onto the bolded statements. I think you consider the Twins a potential playoff team, correct? You then equate Brendan Harris to Mark Teahen (and I agree, that's being generous, but not to the guy you think), yet you say Teahen couldn't start on most playoff teams. There is nothing worse than "playoff teams can't have _____ as a starter" arguments. It's baseball, yes they can. People used to say the same thing about Juan Uribe. You can look at just about every playoff team every year (except the Yankees, because their worst infielder was Robinson Cano) and you can find a starter that you might consider a bum. It's just a poor argument. IT can happen and it does happen.

 

Like a certain afternoon radio show on the Score..."You will never win a WS with Juan Uribe as your starting SS!!!"

 

[MattZakrowski]

I cant seem to get woba for Kotsay only on the White Sox.

 

.334

[caulfield12]

Again, you could do this for every team in baseball and find potential flaws for multiple players to make them X-factors. There is every reason to think the players mentioned will give seasons up to their normal capabilities. I don't consider them X-factors. You may, but I don't.

 

 

 

 

 

 

On your last point, Rios can always shift to a corner if necessary. He's done it before.

 

But onto the bolded statements. I think you consider the Twins a potential playoff team, correct? You then equate Brendan Harris to Mark Teahen (and I agree, that's being generous, but not to the guy you think), yet you say Teahen couldn't start on most playoff teams. There is nothing worse than "playoff teams can't have _____ as a starter" arguments. It's baseball, yes they can. People used to say the same thing about Juan Uribe. You can look at just about every playoff team every year (except the Yankees, because their worst infielder was Robinson Cano) and you can find a starter that you might consider a bum. It's just a poor argument. IT can happen and it does happen.

 

I disagree on the Twins bullpen, because the Sox have a pretty solid 3 on the back end. And while Nathan is a very good closer, I don't think that he's so much better than Jenks that it makes that much of a difference. The overall pitching (from top to bottom) for the Sox was far better than what the Twins put out there last year, and on paper, it hasn't changed in the Twins favor this offseason.

 

 

Someone already brought it up, but I'll reiterate.

 

Juan Uribe was pretty much a Gold Glove shortstop (premium position on the field) who was ALWAYS good for 20+ homers and 70-80 RBI's. It's not a surprise to me that he was rated higher by MLBtraderumors as a more desirable FA than Jermaine Dye because of his versatility.

 

Yes, the Twins have won with the likes of Nick Punto, Doug Mientkiewicz, Rivas, Koskie, Tolbert, Casilla, Lew Ford and Jason Tyner (thank God they don't have Bartlett still).

 

That's the whole point, the White Sox in 2005, the Twins over the last decade....they had superstars or All-Star as part of their core to carry those players. Sure, Juan almost never walked, never hit as well again as he did the first half of 2004, but that guy could do the little things that didn't show up in the box score defensively, he saved a ton of runs with his arm and he and Crede were clearly "clutch" go-to guys to get that run in with a baserunner on 3rd and less than 2 outs. It seemed to me he was like an RBI magnet in those situations.

 

Teahen is a so-so defender at a corner infield spot. And no, Brendan Harris shouldn't be a starter at 3B for the White Sox either...and Morel isn't ready and neither is Viciedo.

 

As far as the Twins' bullpen, they added Rauch and there's a 50/50 chance they'll have Liriano and/or Neshek down there at various points of the season.

 

We subtracted Dotel. Unless Pena, Linebrink or Dolsi do something amazing like Cotts and Politte, we're not close to the 2005 or even 2008 bullpens.

 

Comparing a future Hall of Famer (if Nathan keeps it up for 3-5 more seasons) with Jenks, you're pushing it. I didn't read many threads where the Twins were threatening to non-tender, waive and/or trade Nathan this past-offseason. I would guess 25-35% of the posters around the Internet were ready to just waive Jenks and use that $7.5 million in other creative ways.

 

Now if JJ Putz returns to dominant form, you'll have a strong argument. But that's like saying if Jeff Nelson and Jose Paniagua returned to prior form, they would have made big contributions to the White Sox. Oooops, hyperbole. LOL.

 

If nothing else, watching the Twins' bullpen change from Hawkins/Romero/Guardado to Rincon (yes, steroids helped, lol) to Breslow/Mijares/Reyes, etc., they've always put out a decent pen up there. Although with Crain and Guerrier in recent years, they weren't outright dominant like the 2002-2004 pens were that you KNEW you were done if you went into the 7th inning trailing.

 

Just compare the Twins blown leads from the 7th inning on since Nathan became closer over there...you'll find most of them in 08 and 09, but the bullpen comparisons fall short for the White Sox holding leads compared to the Twins for every season BUT 2005.

 

 

[Ranger]

Like a certain afternoon radio show on the Score..."You will never win a WS with Juan Uribe as your starting SS!!!"

 

 

Yikes. Glad that wasn't me. It's just on overreaching statement to make. I know I said this earlier, but I do think it's possible for one player to carry a lineup for a short period of time, but it's difficult to do for a full season. I also think one player can break lineup if that player was expected to carry the load. For example, if for whatever reason, Pujols just falls apart (unlikely), St. Louis would be in trouble. But if the guy hits 8th in the lineup and plays good D, you most definitely can win with him because he is more dependant on the rest of the lineup then they are on him.

[Soxbadger]

So .334 v .367 id say is "slightly" better.

 

I think Thome would probably put up better stats, I just understand the logic behind the decision made by the White Sox.

 

I guess I just dont think its as big of a deal as some.

[Ranger]

Someone already brought it up, but I'll reiterate.

 

Juan Uribe was pretty much a Gold Glove shortstop (premium position on the field) who was ALWAYS good for 20+ homers and 70-80 RBI's. It's not a surprise to me that he was rated higher by MLBtraderumors as a more desirable FA than Jermaine Dye because of his versatility.

 

Yes, the Twins have won with the likes of Nick Punto, Doug Mientkiewicz, Rivas, Koskie, Tolbert, Casilla, Lew Ford and Jason Tyner (thank God they don't have Bartlett still).

 

That's the whole point, the White Sox in 2005, the Twins over the last decade....they had superstars or All-Star as part of their core to carry those players. Sure, Juan almost never walked, never hit as well again as he did the first half of 2004, but that guy could do the little things that didn't show up in the box score defensively, he saved a ton of runs with his arm and he and Crede were clearly "clutch" go-to guys to get that run in with a baserunner on 3rd and less than 2 outs. It seemed to me he was like an RBI magnet in those situations.

 

Teahen is a so-so defender at a corner infield spot. And no, Brendan Harris shouldn't be a starter at 3B for the White Sox either...and Morel isn't ready and neither is Viciedo.

 

As far as the Twins' bullpen, they added Rauch and there's a 50/50 chance they'll have Liriano and/or Neshek down there at various points of the season.

 

We subtracted Dotel. Unless Pena, Linebrink or Dolsi do something amazing like Cotts and Politte, we're not close to the 2005 or even 2008 bullpens.

 

Comparing a future Hall of Famer (if Nathan keeps it up for 3-5 more seasons) with Jenks, you're pushing it. I didn't read many threads where the Twins were threatening to non-tender, waive and/or trade Nathan this past-offseason. I would guess 25-35% of the posters around the Internet were ready to just waive Jenks and use that $7.5 million in other creative ways.

 

Now if JJ Putz returns to dominant form, you'll have a strong argument. But that's like saying if Jeff Nelson and Jose Paniagua returned to prior form, they would have made big contributions to the White Sox. Oooops, hyperbole. LOL.

 

If nothing else, watching the Twins' bullpen change from Hawkins/Romero/Guardado to Rincon (yes, steroids helped, lol) to Breslow/Mijares/Reyes, etc., they've always put out a decent pen up there. Although with Crain and Guerrier in recent years, they weren't outright dominant like the 2002-2004 pens were that you KNEW you were done if you went into the 7th inning trailing.

 

Just compare the Twins blown leads from the 7th inning on since Nathan became closer over there...you'll find most of them in 08 and 09, but the bullpen comparisons fall short for the White Sox holding leads compared to the Twins for every season BUT 2005.

 

First, I didn't say Jenks was as good as Nathan. What I said was that the difference between the two, within the context of the entire pitching staff, is not great enough to give the Twins the overall edge. The Sox will win more games based on the overall pitching than the Twins will...probably a lot more I have a difficult time thinking that. You may also want to slow down on the Nathan-to-the-Hall-of-Fame talk. Easy there.

 

I also wouldn't take internet posters' willingness to let Jenks walk as an indication of how good he is. That's absurd. I bet it was at least 50% of the internet posters (I've been reading for a while) that wanted "Buehrle's ass shipped to St. Louis" after his '06 season. The follwoing year they were threatening to never come back if the Sox didn't re-sign him.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Ranger

[caulfield12]

Yikes. Glad that wasn't me. It's just on overreaching statement to make. I know I said this earlier, but I do think it's possible for one player to carry a lineup for a short period of time, but it's difficult to do for a full season. I also think one player can break lineup if that player was expected to carry the load. For example, if for whatever reason, Pujols just falls apart (unlikely), St. Louis would be in trouble. But if the guy hits 8th in the lineup and plays good D, you most definitely can win with him because he is more dependant on the rest of the lineup then they are on him.

 

 

That's the point, Teahen SHOULD be the 8th place hitter, but he WON'T be. Unless you want to jam AJ into that 5th-6th-7th spots, which puts us right back into the same situation of having Quentin (if he's not 100% on the bases), Konerko and AJ needing 3-4 hits in a row to score them.

 

Juan Pierre shouldn't be the leadoff hitter, Alexei Ramirez shouldn't be hitting 2nd, etc.

 

Pierre

Ramirez or Rios

Beckham

Quentin

Konerko

AJ

Teahen or DH or Ramirez/Rios

Ramirez or Rios or Teahen/DH

See 7-8

 

Realistically, I have no idea where the heck to stick an Andruw Jones or Kotsay in the batting order. They should be 7th-9th, but who knows with Ozzie Guillen. I guess we will be the first AL team to have a DH hitting in the bottom 3rd of the order in 2010.

 

Can we really afford to go from 2nd through 5th in the batting order (assuming Jones is in the line-up) with all right-handers?

 

Then where the heck do you hit AJ? In front of Pierre? If you stick Ramirez or Rios down the very bottom of the order, that's crazy too.

 

If you have Teahen and AJ back-to-back, that's stupid.

 

Chris, what is your batting order at this point? I guess if you think Teahen will hit 8th, it goes like this.

 

Pierre

Rios

Quentin/Beckham

Konerko

Beckham/Quentin

AJ

DH

Teahen

Ramirez

 

Still too many righties in a row, and you're giving Pierre, Rios, Jones/Kotsay, AJ and Teahen more at-bats than Alexei Ramirez. That's bad. It's also bad to have Rios making megabucks to bat 7th-9th, which is realistically where he SHOULD be based on the last two seasons. But somehow I have a feeling either Andruw Jones or Kotsay will be getting a lot more AB's than they should (by definition, I guess since neither SHOULD be in the line-up, that will be true no matter where they end up hitting).

Edited January 26, 2010 by caulfield12

[chunk23]

I cant seem to get woba for Kotsay only on the White Sox.

 

Ill definitely concede that Thome would hit for more power,

 

But the last 2 months Kotsay's obp was almost .400, compared to Thome's being below .300.

 

I think that Thome fell off a production cliff, and I dont see him rebounding.

 

So you're willing to think that a HOF hitter having two bad months is the obvious indicator that he's done, but a mediocre hitter putting up his best career numbers during limited playing time is a sign he's going to keep it up? A hitter who in the past four seasons has never OPSed over 746?

So .334 v .367 id say is "slightly" better.

 

I think Thome would probably put up better stats, I just understand the logic behind the decision made by the White Sox.

 

I guess I just dont think its as big of a deal as some.

 

It's a big deal because the Sox are replacing one of their best hitters from last year with guys who have average roughly around a 700 OPS the last three years.

Edited January 26, 2010 by chunk23

[witesoxfan]

Hyperbole wont get far with me.

 

But Ill go ahead and say that today Curtis Enis is the better football player than Walter Payton. Granted Walter Payton is dead, but the point remains.

 

Just because Thome in his prime was far better than Kotsay, does not prove that Thome this year is going to be anything more than slightly better than Kotsay.

 

What exact statistic from last year makes you believe that Jim Thome is "significantly" better than Kotsay?

 

I don't like this line right here, because I can say the exact same thing between Kotsay and Thome as I can with Freddy Garcia and Gavin Floyd. But what I can say is that Thome had a far better year last year than did Mark Kotsay, and if given the same number of ABs, I would, with about 98% certainty, be able to guarantee that Kotsay will hit for a better average, Thome will have a better on base percentage, and Thome will have a better slugging percentage. There's the off chance that Kotsay hits .300 and puts up a .360 OBP while Thome hits .230 and puts up a .340 OBP, or whatever in the whereabouts, but I think it's far more likely that Kotsay hits about .280 with a .330 OBP and a .420 SLG while Thome hits about .240 with a .350 OBP and a .480 SLG.

 

I'm done arguing about Thome coming back, because it's a dead issue at this point in time.

[Ranger]

That's the point, Teahen SHOULD be the 8th place hitter, but he WON'T be. Unless you want to jam AJ into that 5th-6th-7th spots, which puts us right back into the same situation of having Quentin (if he's not 100% on the bases), Konerko and AJ needing 3-4 hits in a row to score them.

 

Juan Pierre shouldn't be the leadoff hitter, Alexei Ramirez shouldn't be hitting 2nd, etc.

 

Pierre

Ramirez or Rios

Beckham

Quentin

Konerko

Teahen or DH or Ramirez/Rios

Teahen or DH or Ramirez/Rios

Ramirez or Rios or Teahen/DH

AJ

 

Realistically, I have no idea where the heck to stick an Andruw Jones or Kotsay in the batting order. They should be 7th-9th, but who knows with Ozzie Guillen. I guess we will be the first AL team to have a DH hitting in the bottom 3rd of the order in 2010.

 

Can we really afford to go from 2nd through 7th in the batting order (assuming Jones is in the line-up) with all right-handers?

 

Then where the heck do you hit AJ? In front of Pierre? If you stick Ramirez or Rios down the very bottom of the order, that's crazy too.

 

If you have Teahen and AJ back-to-back, that's stupid.

 

Chris, what is your batting order at this point? I guess if you think Teahen will hit 8th, it goes like this.

 

Pierre

Rios

Quentin/Beckham

Konerko

Beckham/Quentin

DH

AJ

Teahen

Ramirez

 

Still too many righties in a row, and you're giving Pierre, Rios, Jones/Kotsay, AJ and Teahen more at-bats than Alexei Ramirez. That's bad. It's also bad to have Rios making megabucks to bat 7th-9th.

 

I think it's a mistake to equate Teahen and Uribe in the hitting department. They aren't the same hitter, and I would be really surprised if Uribe does again what he did last year. That was insane for him.

 

At any rate, I'd see Teahen hitting 7th. Rios I can see anywhere from 5th-6th. AJ might be hitting 5th. But who knows, anyway. There could be 6 forms of that lineup.

[caulfield12]

First, I didn't say Jenks was as good as Nathan. What I said was that the difference between the two, within the context of the entire pitching staff, is not great enough to give the Twins the overall edge. The Sox will win more games based on the overall pitching than the Twins will...probably a lot more I have a difficult time thinking that. You may also want to slow down on the Nathan-to-the-Hall-of-Fame talk. Easy there.

 

I also wouldn't take internet posters' willingness to let Jenks walk as an indication of how good he is. That's absurd. I bet it was at least 50% of the internet posters (I've been reading for a while) that wanted "Buehrle's ass shipped to St. Louis" after his '06 season. The follwoing year they were threatening to never come back if the Sox didn't re-sign him.

 

 

You're a Cardinals fan, you certainly understand why that talk has existed seemingly every year.

 

It was more a matter of if we couldn't keep Mark Buehrle around here long-term, maybe we should try to get something from the Cards' minor league system...the next Lance Johnson, Vince Coleman or Willie McGee would look nice in our line-up if we could get Sherman and Peabody to turn the Way Back Machine 20+ years. Or Terry Pendleton to play 3B.

 

White Sox fans have always loved Buehrle more than any player with the posssible exception of Konerko/Crede/Thomas for some, it's just that they didn't want to become TOO ATTACHED and be heartbroken at some point when/if he bolted for St. Louis. Nobody was too upset when Jon Garland ended up in Southern California as predicted for 5 years, but Buehrle is a different situation entirely.

 

 

[Soxbadger]

As I said before, its my opinion and I hold it in pretty high regard.

 

I might be wrong, I might be right, but Ive earned the right to give an opinion and stand by it.

 

That much I know.

[caulfield12]

I think it's a mistake to equate Teahen and Uribe in the hitting department. They aren't the same hitter, and I would be really surprised if Uribe does again what he did last year. That was insane for him.

 

At any rate, I'd see Teahen hitting 7th. Rios I can see anywhere from 5th-6th. AJ might be hitting 5th. But who knows, anyway. There could be 6 forms of that lineup.

 

 

Which means you now have to hit Beckham, Ramirez or Kotsay/Vizquel second, right??

 

Uribe has been around seemingly forever, but he's only 3 years older than Teahen, 31 (he still is 30 right now) versus 28.

 

Uribe put up an 824 OPS, which is something Teahen has never done. So the argument is that Teahen SHOULD overachieve but Uribe will never repeat his 2004 and 2009 seasons because of what exactly?

 

If anything, you're just guessing...it's not unlike saying Mark Kotsay will be better than Alex Rios/Thome/Dye based on August/September of 2009. Heck, we're basing our hopes for leadoff hitter on an uncharacteristic flash of brilliance from Juan Pierre in LA that looks like it could be an outlier versus his career trends and age.

 

I just hope that JD and Thome don't put up huge numbers for either the Cubs, Twins or Tigers...I can just see the series of Phil Rogers and Cowley articles inundating the papers and Net if that comes to pass.

Edited January 26, 2010 by caulfield12