The Jim Thome Saga Ends

[Steve9347]

I'm done arguing about Thome coming back, because it's a dead issue at this point in time.

Best thing posted in this thread in 24 hours.

[caulfield12]

Mark Loretta might come out of his one-day retirement to DH for us.

 

Ozzie and KW deserve this public relations backlash for putting themselves in this situation in the first place and then trying to positively "spin" the fanbase to accept it as the best option when that's clearly not the case in anything but Bizarro World/Twilight Zone.

[Ranger]

You're a Cardinals fan, you certainly understand why that talk has existed seemingly every year.

 

It was more a matter of if we couldn't keep Mark Buehrle around here long-term, maybe we should try to get something from the Cards' minor league system...the next Lance Johnson, Vince Coleman or Willie McGee would look nice in our line-up if we could get Sherman and Peabody to turn the Way Back Machine 20+ years. Or Terry Pendleton to play 3B.

 

White Sox fans have always loved Buehrle more than any player with the posssible exception of Konerko/Crede/Thomas for some, it's just that they didn't want to become TOO ATTACHED and be heartbroken at some point when/if he bolted for St. Louis. Nobody was too upset when Jon Garland ended up in Southern California as predicted for 5 years, but Buehrle is a different situation entirely.

 

No, caulfield, they were ready to throw him out of town because he was having a bad year. There were numerous people that were so upset with his underperformance that they would say things like, "if he wants to play for the Cardinals then go ****ing play there!"

 

Trust me, it was out of anger, it wasn't out of prudence. People weren't thinking about the draft picks. They were mad because he stunk that year.

 

 

Which means you now have to hit Beckham, Ramirez or Kotsay/Vizquel second, right??

 

Uribe has been around seemingly forever, but he's only 3 years older than Teahen, 31 (he still is 30 right now) versus 28.

 

Uribe put up an 824 OPS, which is something Teahen has never done. So the argument is that Teahen SHOULD overachieve but Uribe will never repeat his 2004 and 2009 seasons because of what exactly?

 

If anything, you're just guessing...it's not unlike saying Mark Kotsay will be better than Alex Rios/Thome/Dye based on August/September of 2009. Heck, we're basing our hopes for leadoff hitter on an uncharacteristic flash of brilliance from Juan Pierre in LA that looks like it could be an outlier versus his career trends and age.

 

I just hope that JD and Thome don't put up huge numbers for either the Cubs, Twins or Tigers...I can just see the series of Phil Rogers and Cowley articles inundating the papers and Net if that comes to pass.

 

Yeah, I think Beckham will hit 2nd.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Ranger

[southsider2k5]

I'm done arguing about Thome coming back, because it's a dead issue at this point in time.

 

 

Best thing posted in this thread in 24 hours.

 

Thirded.

[chunk23]

Best thing posted in this thread in 24 hours.

 

The conservation should be about how bad the Jones/Kotsay tandem will be. Thome wasn't the only dh option out there, but now it looks more and more likely that they're going with this terrible combo.

[caulfield12]

No, caulfield, they were ready to throw him out of town because he was having a bad year. There were numerous people that were so upset with his underperformance that they would say things like, "if he wants to play for the Cardinals then go ****ing play there!"

 

Trust me, it was out of anger, it wasn't out of prudence. People weren't thinking about the draft picks. They were mad because he stunk that year.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, I think Beckham will hit 2nd.

 

It's back to the same argument again, the "snap/angry/speak first and think later" tenor of a call-in show or post-game thread versus calm, reasonable, logical thinking about the White Sox.

 

Anyone who has watched Buehrle's career from the very beginning, from the tarp slides to the deer hunting with Crede to the World Series and family stage of his life...they've never undervalued his importance to this team and franchise.

 

On paper, after you get past the won-loss record, quite a few people prefer the "flashiness" and repertoire of a Javy Vazquez or even Gavin Floyd. Strikeouts are more exciting than maximizing pitch counts, keeping the infield defense on its toes and working fast. And yeah, when Buehrle doesn't have it, he does occasionally just get absolutely rocked, but more often than not he battles hit butt off out there. Just like Greg Hibbard used to do.

 

I also think MOST Sox fans have a lot more forgiveness and patience for ANY of the members of that World Series-winning team.

 

No matter how bad things got with Jose Contreras post 2006, those four months in 05-06 were enough for me to forgive anything that happened consequently, including KW's signing him to a contract extension that went 1-2 years too long. The White Sox can't afford to be sentimental very often (it's a business, after all), but when they have acted in that way, it was to keep players like Konerko, Buehrle, Dye, AJ, etc., in the fold. If AJ or Konerko don't perform well this year, I won't be clamoring for them to be traded or waived either, although I'm sure some of the younger fans or those with shorter memories will be quicker to cut them adrift.

 

 

[fathom]

Yeah, I think Beckham will hit 2nd.

 

 

Pierre/Beckham/Quentin/Konerko?

[Leonard Zelig]

The conservation should be about how bad the Jones/Kotsay tandem will be.

 

1. It's pretty much been covered.

 

2. It's pointless because nobody knows how productive they will be.

[Ranger]

It's back to the same argument again, the "snap/angry/speak first and think later" tenor of a call-in show or post-game thread versus calm, reasonable, logical thinking about the White Sox.

 

Anyone who has watched Buehrle's career from the very beginning, from the tarp slides to the deer hunting with Crede to the World Series and family stage of his life...they've never undervalued his importance to this team and franchise.

 

On paper, after you get past the won-loss record, quite a few people prefer the "flashiness" and repertoire of a Javy Vazquez or even Gavin Floyd. Strikeouts are more exciting than maximizing pitch counts, keeping the infield defense on its toes and working fast. And yeah, when Buehrle doesn't have it, he does occasionally just get absolutely rocked, but more often than not he battles hit butt off out there. Just like Greg Hibbard used to do.

 

I also think MOST Sox fans have a lot more forgiveness and patience for ANY of the members of that World Series-winning team.

 

No matter how bad things got with Jose Contreras post 2006, those four months in 05-06 were enough for me to forgive anything that happened consequently, including KW's signing him to a contract extension that went 1-2 years too long. The White Sox can't afford to be sentimental very often (it's a business, after all), but when they have acted in that way, it was to keep players like Konerko, Buehrle, Dye, AJ, etc., in the fold. If AJ or Konerko don't perform well this year, I won't be clamoring for them to be traded or waived either, although I'm sure some of the younger fans or those with shorter memories will be quicker to cut them adrift.

 

Maybe you're not understanding. You used message posts as a guage for how much more valuable Joe Nathan is over Bobby Jenks. I'm telling you that it's crazy to do that considering there were many, many posts/calls/emails from people wanting Mark Buehrle sent packing because he was having a bad year and because a significant amount of people thought he was done. It doesn't matter if it was a regular Sox forum or postgame threads, it was still said. And it was said repeatedly.

 

And, of course, those people changed their minds because they didn't know what they were talking about in the first place. Therefore, I would be careful with using a message board as evidence of a player's value.

 

[G&T]

.

 

Were you wearing a hat today?

Edited January 26, 2010 by G&T

[flavum]

Pierre/Beckham/Quentin/Konerko?

 

I like this.

 

Pierre

Beckham

Quentin

Konerko

Jones/Kotsay

Rios

Pierzynski

Teahen

Ramirez

 

I think the DH spot and Pierzynski are interchangeable. Ramirez should bat 9th to start the year, since he's been terrible in April his first two years.

[caulfield12]

Maybe you're not understanding. You used message posts as a guage for how much more valuable Joe Nathan is over Bobby Jenks. I'm telling you that it's crazy to do that considering there were many, many posts/calls/emails from people wanting Mark Buehrle sent packing because he was having a bad year and because a significant amount of people thought he was done. It doesn't matter if it was a regular Sox forum or postgame threads, it was still said. And it was said repeatedly.

 

And, of course, those people changed their minds because they didn't know what they were talking about in the first place. Therefore, I would be careful with using a message board as evidence of a player's value.

 

 

No, I used 10 years of listening and watching to the Twins, almost as many as White Sox games.

 

I could pull out and quote all the individual save/opportunity stats, 7th inning leads blown, 8th inning leads blown, blown saves for the bullpen overall.

 

We just have a difference of opinion. You are "selling" the company line that the White Sox bullpen has enough pieces that COULD BE GOOD, even without Dotel and with JJ Putz's health uncertain (such as Pena and Linebrink), that it makes the margin between Jenks and Nathan at the end of games minimal or negligible.

 

I disagree, respectfully.

 

I think everything flows backwards from the closer and Joe Nathan can make a "meh" bullpen committee look better than it really is and a shaky reliever can turn great set-up guys into...

 

Let's just put it this way, when Joe Morgan made his remarks about the White Sox having one of the great bullpens in 2008, you knew his hyperbole would eventually come back to bite him. Both him and KW. We'll see how determined Jenks is to get his career back on track again in 2010.

[caulfield12]

I like this.

 

Pierre

Beckham

Quentin

Konerko

Jones/Kotsay

Rios

Pierzynski

Teahen

Ramirez

 

I think the DH spot and Pierzynski are interchangeable. Ramirez should bat 9th to start the year, since he's been terrible in April his first two years.

 

If you hit Ramirez AFTER Pierre and Juan actually gets on base, that will force our opponents to throw him more fastballs, which he feasts on (just like Uribe).

 

Alexei made adjustments in mid-season to the curveball, but you stick Ramirez down at 9th after Teahen, they'll just throw him a steady diet of junk and he'll get himself out more often than not. Heck, they will pitch around him to face Pierre and retire him, then Beckham would be leading off with nobody on base, which isn't the best use of his talent and ability. In that case, you might as well just bat Pierre 9th, Beckham first and Rios/Ramirez 2nd.

 

AJ and Teahen back-to-back doesn't make very much sense when they're your two best LH power hitter, and Kotsay should never be hitting 5th. That Mark Kotsay "logically" could be hitting fifth one-third of the games tells you all you need to know about this year's offense.

Edited January 26, 2010 by caulfield12

[LittleHurt05]

No, I used 10 years of listening and watching to the Twins, almost as many as White Sox games.

 

I could pull out and quote all the individual save/opportunity stats, 7th inning leads blown, 8th inning leads blown, blown saves for the bullpen overall.

 

We just have a difference of opinion. You are "selling" the company line that the White Sox bullpen has enough pieces that COULD BE GOOD, even without Dotel and with JJ Putz's health uncertain (such as Pena and Linebrink), that it makes the margin between Jenks and Nathan at the end of games minimal or negligible.

 

I disagree, respectfully.

 

I think everything flows backwards from the closer and Joe Nathan can make a "meh" bullpen committee look better than it really is and a shaky reliever can turn great set-up guys into...

 

Let's just put it this way, when Joe Morgan made his remarks about the White Sox having one of the great bullpens in 2008, you knew his hyperbole would eventually come back to bite him. Both him and KW. We'll see how determined Jenks is to get his career back on track again in 2010.

 

This is what Gordon & Paulie think of your Joe Nathan talk...

 

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/media/vide...29&c_id=cws

[caulfield12]

How many times have the White Sox come back and beaten Nathan (the game you referenced)?

 

It happened once last year.

 

There was another game Carlos Lee homered off him (must have been 2003 or 2004) at USCF to tie the game but they ended up losing eventually if my memory serves me correctly.

Edited January 26, 2010 by caulfield12

[Steve9347]

Supposedly the White Sox looked at every ball Teahen hit in the last two seasons, and if he continues on the same track, he can hit way more homers in US Cell. TIFWIW.

[caulfield12]

Yes, Steve.

 

But weren't the same things said about Nick Swisher and Alex Rios???

 

Why were we so atrocious at home? Can anyone explain that, especially after 2008, and historically, when it has been the opposite.

 

If anything, I worry about a player like Teahen (just like Ramirez/Uribe) thinking they're sluggers at USCF, adjusting their swing and popping up a ton of balls (like Crede or Thomas) to the outfield.

 

Of course, Hawk will be there with his "just missed it, dad gummit" comments now and again, but it won't change the end results.

 

 

[Steve9347]

Yes, Steve.

 

But weren't the same things said about Nick Swisher and Alex Rios???

 

Why were we so atrocious at home? Can anyone explain that, especially after 2008, and historically, when it has been the opposite.

 

If anything, I worry about a player like Teahen (just like Ramirez/Uribe) thinking they're sluggers at USCF, adjusting their swing and popping up a ton of balls (like Crede or Thomas) to the outfield.

 

Of course, Hawk will be there with his "just missed it, dad gummit" comments now and again, but it won't change the end results.

Someone doesn't understand TIFWIW, eh? I'm just regurgitating what Bernstein brought up minutes ago.

[LittleHurt05]

How many times have the White Sox come back and beaten Nathan (the game you referenced)?

 

It happened once last year.

 

There was another game Carlos Lee homered off him (must have been 2003 or 2004) at USCF to tie the game but they ended up losing eventually if my memory serves me correctly.

 

He's 24 of 27 in save opps vs. the Sox. That video actually wasnt meant to prove any points, just wanted to relive one of the best moments from last season.

[Ranger]

No, I used 10 years of listening and watching to the Twins, almost as many as White Sox games.

 

I could pull out and quote all the individual save/opportunity stats, 7th inning leads blown, 8th inning leads blown, blown saves for the bullpen overall.

 

We just have a difference of opinion. You are "selling" the company line that the White Sox bullpen has enough pieces that COULD BE GOOD, even without Dotel and with JJ Putz's health uncertain (such as Pena and Linebrink), that it makes the margin between Jenks and Nathan at the end of games minimal or negligible.

 

I disagree, respectfully.

 

I think everything flows backwards from the closer and Joe Nathan can make a "meh" bullpen committee look better than it really is and a shaky reliever can turn great set-up guys into...

 

Let's just put it this way, when Joe Morgan made his remarks about the White Sox having one of the great bullpens in 2008, you knew his hyperbole would eventually come back to bite him. Both him and KW. We'll see how determined Jenks is to get his career back on track again in 2010.

 

I'll say this then I'll remove myself from a conversation that's going nowhere: It is most definitely not a "company line" (which is a weak-ass cop-out on your part) to suggest a Putz/Thornton/Jenks back end of a bullpen is a good one. I promise you there are a number of teams that would be pretty damned happy to have that. It's not a matter of "could be good" because there is every reason to believe they will be. If you can't see that the Sox pitching staff in it's entirety is not better than the Twins' staff, I can't help you. The difference in the two closers alone will not be significant enough. Nathan is good, but he's not so much better that it'll make a difference in the overall outcome of the season. The pitching staff is a unit and it's about the unit as a whole.

 

And in your words:

 

"I didn't read many threads where the Twins were threatening to non-tender, waive and/or trade Nathan this past-offseason. I would guess 25-35% of the posters around the Internet were ready to just waive Jenks and use that $7.5 million in other creative ways."

 

This is you, caulfield, using internet postings as evidence of Nathan's dominance over Jenks.

 

[soxfan3530]

quick question involving the dh. Was Andruw Jones at soxfest? are there any pictures of him since his so called weight loss? i would like to see the guy and see what he looks like.

[Steve9347]

No, I used 10 years of listening and watching to the Twins, almost as many as White Sox games.

So you've watched almost every Royals, Twins, and White Sox game over the last 10 years? GMAB.

[southsider2k5]

Someone doesn't understand TIFWIW, eh? I'm just regurgitating what Bernstein brought up minutes ago.

 

And it seems to be worth more random names and questions...

[southsider2k5]

So you've watched almost every Royals, Twins, and White Sox game over the last 10 years? GMAB.

 

What's wrong with watching like 500 games a year?

[Steve9347]