The Jim Thome Saga Ends

[Dick Allen]

I don't understand why now its what Ozzie wants Ozzie gets. Before near the deadline, it was what Konerko and Thome want, and they wanted nothing, so nothing it was. Ozzie was one of the last people to know the Sox picked up Rios. Considering he's owed more than any player on the team, that

seems odd, especially now if they aren't bluffing about not adding anyone else. I think its a bluff, of course I thought DWise playing CF last year was a bluff as well.

[SoxFanForever]

Teams are turning away from a traditional DH?

 

Which teams would those be exactly?

 

Yankees - Matsui - 116 starts at DH

Boston - Ortiz - 138 starts at DH

Rays - Burrell - 112 starts at DH

Jays - Lind - 92 starts at DH

Orioles - Scott - 89 starts at DH

 

Twins - Kubel - 80 games at DH

Tigers - Thames - 50 games at DH

Sox - Thome - 98 games at DH

Indians - Hafner - 88 games at DH

Royals - Jacobs - 102 games at DH

 

Angels - Vlad - 93 games at DH

Rangers - Jones 53/Blalock 49

Mariners - Griffey - 91

A's - Cust - 96

 

Obviously injuries and other circumstances skewed some of these numbers. Hafner & Matsui injuries, Thome being traded to the NL, etc. Even taking the 53 games of Jones and the 50 of Thames it still averages to nearly 93 games at the DH position. I'm sure Ozzie is just saying this because he wants a more slappy/punchy team. That or they can't sign anyone to fill the void at DH that isn't 38+ years old.

[Dick Allen]

Teams are turning away from a traditional DH?

 

Which teams would those be exactly?

 

Yankees - Matsui - 116 starts at DH

Boston - Ortiz - 138 starts at DH

Rays - Burrell - 112 starts at DH

Jays - Lind - 92 starts at DH

Orioles - Scott - 89 starts at DH

 

Twins - Kubel - 80 games at DH

Tigers - Thames - 50 games at DH

Sox - Thome - 98 games at DH

Indians - Hafner - 88 games at DH

Royals - Jacobs - 102 games at DH

 

Angels - Vlad - 93 games at DH

Rangers - Jones 53/Blalock 49

Mariners - Griffey - 91

A's - Cust - 96

 

Obviously injuries and other circumstances skewed some of these numbers. Hafner & Matsui injuries, Thome being traded to the NL, etc. Even taking the 53 games of Jones and the 50 of Thames it still averages to nearly 93 games at the DH position. I'm sure Ozzie is just saying this because he wants a more slappy/punchy team. That or they can't sign anyone to fill the void at DH that isn't 38+ years old.

I don't mind the Sox rotating the DH as long as they do it mostly with frontline starter-quality players. At this stage I don't think you could call either Jones or Kotsay that. To play every game in the AL with basically a reserve in the line-up is playing a man short. That is going to tax your pitching staff. They are going to think they have to throw a gem everytime they take the mound. Besides, the Sox acquiring another guy would make Cowley wrong.................again. That would be sweet.

Edited January 22, 2010 by Dick Allen

[iamshack]

I don't understand why now its what Ozzie wants Ozzie gets. Before near the deadline, it was what Konerko and Thome want, and they wanted nothing, so nothing it was. Ozzie was one of the last people to know the Sox picked up Rios. Considering he's owed more than any player on the team, that

seems odd, especially now if they aren't bluffing about not adding anyone else. I think its a bluff, of course I thought DWise playing CF last year was a bluff as well.

Unfortunately, JR said something the other day to the effect of "It's difficult to hold a guy accountable if he's not given the team he wants."

 

It's clear EVERYONE else wants to sign a DH, and Ozzie is begging to be allowed to at least start the season out without one.

 

It's pretty clear that he simply wants to make things easier on himself with the veteran bench by giving them more opportunities to play. Unfortunately, he's going to realize come about April 23rd that he's got no middle of the order LH bat and not enough run producers.

[bmags]

pathetic ozzie.

[witesoxfan]

Looking back, I'd also say that, in some ways, JR's comments about holding Ozzie accountable are giving him an ultimatum. There have been teams in the past that start out with absolutely piss-poor 25-man rosters and find their way into the playoffs due to key acquisitions and promotions throughout the duration of the season. If after 5 starts, Freddy Garcia is tanking, the team needs to either send him down or cut him loose and give Hudson a shot; if after one month, the designated revolving door of washed-up hitters is still struggling, cut them or cut their playing time and bring in an actual player who is going to put up numbers.

 

In the mean time, the Sox have to hope that the defense is superb. I feel just fine about every position on this team except DH, and I think that a legitimate DH could be the difference between 85-87 wins and a 2nd place finish and 88-92 wins and a division title.

[iamshack]

Couldn't agree more.

[chisoxfan09]

Post removed as it is a duplicate. Sorry Mods. But seriously Ozzie gets more stubborn every year. I really think KW has something up his sleave but maybe it will be at the trading deadline. Who knows.

Edited January 22, 2010 by chisoxfan09

[iamshack]

Thanks for posting this, but in the future, please review the thread a bit before posting.

 

The snippet in bold was already posted in page 3.

 

Thanks.

[witesoxfan]

Couldn't agree more.

 

In a very sadistic sort of manner, an injury to Kotsay or Jones in Spring Training might be the best thing for this team because it would force the team to make a move for some type of alternative DH, and unless the Sox are really, really fond of Gartrell or Kroeger, it would be from outside the organization.

 

It's weird, because in November when the Kotsay and Jones signings were made, they were considered great moves if they were used correctly. The closer we get to Spring Training, the more and more Mark Kotsay resembles Darin Erstad, both in the baseball and literal sense.

 

Finally, if the Sox don't want Thome, why can't they just sign Branyan? I don't trust him as much as I do Thome to put up numbers, but I trust him a hell of a lot more than Kotsay and Jones, and he can atleast play 1B and might be able to play an emergency LF or RF too. FWIW, Branyan's last 1700+ PA's has resulted in a .236/.339/.498/.838 line, and in his last two seasons with Milwaukee and Seattle, he's put up .250/.346/.535/.881, and that OPS is around .925 against RHP. A strict platoon between Jones and Branyan while also allowing time for Kotsay, Konerko, and Quentin to get time at DH would work just fine.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

You cut Nix. No question about it. Let him find a job somewhere else, and if he doesn't you outright him to AAA.

There's no way this team or any other is going to go with only 1 MIF backup on the roster. You drop a pitcher or one of the extra OFers. Might as well drop the pitcher since Carrasco is gone and we don't have any good LR options outside of Hudson, and it's sounding like he might end up in Charlotte to start the season. If the choice is Thome vs. Sergio Santos/Freddy Dolsi/etc. it's an easy one to make.

Edited January 22, 2010 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[iamshack]

Talk about a guy who is getting screwed by a bad economy. Poor Russell Branyan finally figures out how to hit lefties well-enough to get everyday at bats and even when he breaks out for a few career years, he can't even get a decent contract.

 

As for Thome, he obviously is the perfect candidate, he'd probably sign here for next to nothing, but Ozzie wants Mark Kotsay and Andruw Jones and Omar all to like him. I sincerely believe that is what this is about.

[MexSoxFan#1]

I thought we wanted to get past the station to station baseball we've had the "enjoyment" of watching the last few seasons...I like Big Jim as much as the next guy but time to move on.

[witesoxfan]

I thought we wanted to get past the station to station baseball we've had the "enjoyment" of watching the last few seasons...I like Big Jim as much as the next guy but time to move on.

 

Jim Thome's station to station baseball resulted in him scoring 93 runs and driving in 90 during 2008. Juan Pierre's 1st to 3rd approach last scored him that many runs in 2007 (when he was actually starting because the Dodgers didn't realize how bad he was), and it took him almost 130 more plate appearances, and he wasn't driving in runs.

 

I would like people to make a better argument against Jim Thome than "we're tired of him" and "station to station baseball." The Sox currently only have 2 full-time starters I would consider slow - Pierzynski and Konerko - and 2 others who aren't going to win track meets but move well enough - Quentin and Teahen. Having a guy that can get on base and hit some homers from the left side of the plate would really do wonders for the club, and I am one of the few who actually has relatively high hopes for Teahen.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I thought we wanted to get past the station to station baseball we've had the "enjoyment" of watching the last few seasons...I like Big Jim as much as the next guy but time to move on.

I agree that the station-to-station baseball is not the kind of baseball we want to play, but we need to strive for balance, not just identify one annoying aspect and try to get rid of it altogether. We do need guys to hit home runs and get big XBH to drive in runs, as well as guys who can draw walks to get on base. We also need another big lefty bat to balance the middle of the order so that all these #6-8 hitters we have can hit in spots that best suit their production. Plus we have little money to spend. Thome fits in perfectly. He's not ideal, but neither is Pierre, neither is Teahen, neither is Paulie, and it goes on from there.

[Eminor3rd]

Really Ozzie? Jason Kubel, from your favorite Twins team, DH'ed in 80 games; Joe Mauer DH'ed in 28 games; Justin Morneau DH'ed in 12 games. Why? Because they are GOOD.

 

You want to DH Andruw Jones, Mark Kotsay, Omar Vizquel, and maybe giving an outfielder a rest (the only one who should ever be DH'ed in the first place is Quentin).

 

It's like Ozzie has been given boxing gloves and now he wants to go play basketball with them on.

 

I've noticed our collective rage growing over the last couple months.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Talk about a guy who is getting screwed by a bad economy. Poor Russell Branyan finally figures out how to hit lefties well-enough to get everyday at bats and even when he breaks out for a few career years, he can't even get a decent contract.

 

As for Thome, he obviously is the perfect candidate, he'd probably sign here for next to nothing, but Ozzie wants Mark Kotsay and Andruw Jones and Omar all to like him. I sincerely believe that is what this is about.

I think it's funny how all this stuff works. Branyan puts up those numbers in Seattle but can't find a job while Marlon Byrd puts up a .283/.329/.479 line in Texas and gets 3 years, $15M guaranteed. As a lefty with huge power who can play both corners and LF you'd think someone would be interested.

[fathom]

Branyan has huge health concerns about his back, that's why no one has signed him yet.

[witesoxfan]

I've noticed our collective rage growing over the last couple months.

 

Mine is only growing over this stupid ass revolving DH of s***ty ass hitters. I could come up with analogies of how stupid it is all night, and I might keep you guys entertained for a while, but I don't have that kind of time.

 

I think it's funny how all this stuff works. Branyan puts up those numbers in Seattle but can't find a job while Marlon Byrd puts up a .283/.329/.479 line in Texas and gets 3 years, $15M guaranteed. As a lefty with huge power who can play both corners and LF you'd think someone would be interested.

 

You have to understand what organization it came from though too - the same organization that gave a 3-year, $21 million contract to a pitcher coming off a year with a 6 ERA, that gave a $136 mill contract to a guy coming off the only year in his entire career where he actually drew walks, that signed a malcontent to a 3-year, $36 mill contract and then dealt him the next offseason, and so on and so forth. The Cubs are a dumb organization.

[MattZakrowski]

I think it's funny how all this stuff works. Branyan puts up those numbers in Seattle but can't find a job while Marlon Byrd puts up a .283/.329/.479 line in Texas and gets 3 years, $15M guaranteed. As a lefty with huge power who can play both corners and LF you'd think someone would be interested.

 

To be fair, he hasn't play more than 20 games in left since 2002, and he was bad then, if you go by the -10.9 UZR/150. I can't really speak for his 3rd base defense (data's too sporadic), but the fact that he's mostly talked about as a 1B/DH guy has to count for something.

[SoxAce]

I gotta say if this is the way we are going, I don't wanna see one Greg Walker thread this year about our lack of offense/scoring runs. I mean seriously, it's bad enough I'm trying to stomach a guy whose highest OBP in four seasons was .331, prior to last season, leading off for us and now the whole rotating DH thing possibility. Walker doesn't have much to work with especially with with the lack of OBP (only Quentin, Beckham, Konerko are pretty much solid locks) guys in our lineup. We are pretty much hoping Pierre can hit like he did last season, Teahan to find that once solid "moneyball" discipline, and Rios to either have a career year, or hit like he did in 2007 (A.J. will not give you a high OBP, though he's important to the team/staff) It seems Ozzie is actually having more of a say in personnel decisions than usual. Though Ozzie did say him and KW are gonna sit down tomorrow to discuss it further on CTL today, so I'll hold my tongue till pitchers and catchers report.

[The Ginger Kid]

So, AJ and Teahan are our power bats from he left side?

 

I'm no fan of bringing Jim back - his back is worn out, you know he's going down for part of the season. And he doesn't do well unless he has consistent playing time. But we could use some LH hitting...especially now that Babe Getz is gone.

[The Ginger Kid]

he should just sign with the royals to complete the trifecta

[fathom]

Ankiel just signed with KC for 3.25 mil

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Mine is only growing over this stupid ass revolving DH of s***ty ass hitters. I could come up with analogies of how stupid it is all night, and I might keep you guys entertained for a while, but I don't have that kind of time.

 

 

 

You have to understand what organization it came from though too - the same organization that gave a 3-year, $21 million contract to a pitcher coming off a year with a 6 ERA, that gave a $136 mill contract to a guy coming off the only year in his entire career where he actually drew walks, that signed a malcontent to a 3-year, $36 mill contract and then dealt him the next offseason, and so on and so forth. The Cubs are a dumb organization.

Agree. Hendry is the worst GM in baseball, and if I followed other sports as closely as I do baseball, I imagine I'd consider him to be one of the worst GMs in pro sports. I don't see how one guy can make that many huge mistakes and still have a job. Hendry is the Isiah Thomas of baseball.

 

But still, there are always really terrible signings. One that immediately comes to mind was the Giants going after Renteria last offseason after his deal with the Tigers ended. Nobody wanted him and yet they gave him $18.5M. Why?