southsider2k5 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 21, 2011 -> 08:16 AM) And yet, you ought to know economics well enough to know the effect of narrowing the field down to 2 companies winds up being the exact opposite. It is still more competition than 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 21, 2011 -> 08:17 AM) If all of MLB was the White Sox and Royals, pennant races would get pretty boring. True, but it's still a competition. Also, keep in mind Sprint and Qwest exist. So that's 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 21, 2011 -> 09:18 AM) It is still more competition than 1. Until they realize that they can lobby together on the same issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 21, 2011 -> 08:20 AM) Until they realize that they can lobby together on the same issues. I'm sure Verizon and AT&T want to get indicted on price fixing. Ask Archer Daniels how that worked out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Mar 21, 2011 -> 09:22 AM) I'm sure Verizon and AT&T want to get indicted on price fixing. Ask Archer Daniels how that worked out. A $100 million fine that was, like most fines, small relative to the size of the company and the money they made off the plan? And your best example comes from 1993? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 21, 2011 -> 08:29 AM) A $100 million fine that was, like most fines, small relative to the size of the company and the money they made off the plan? And your best example comes from 1993? 100M back in 1993 was a lot of money. So no, in realitive size, it was quite a massive fine. You're comparing how big the company is today. In 1993 that stock was trading at about 9$ and the company was worth 1/10th what it is now. Anyway...the reason I offered that example that old is because companies don't lobby together and price fix...BECAUSE it shows you companies don't want to get indicted on price fixing, as you just f***ing said AT&T and Verizon would basically do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Mar 21, 2011 -> 09:39 AM) Anyway...the reason I offered that example that old is because companies don't lobby together and price fix...BECAUSE it shows you companies don't want to get indicted on price fixing, as you just f***ing said AT&T and Verizon would basically do. Getting caught "price-fixing" these days just means that companies got sloppy. The ways around it are just too easy. If the oil industry can get away with uniform price changes across stations, all happening in the same order every time, then all you really need is a few lawyers who know the law well to slip around them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 21, 2011 -> 08:41 AM) Getting caught "price-fixing" these days just means that companies got sloppy. The ways around it are just too easy. If the oil industry can get away with uniform price changes across stations, all happening in the same order every time, then all you really need is a few lawyers who know the law well to slip around them. Sorry but the oil industry cannot price fix the same way that AT&T and Verizon can, since oil is traded on the public commodities exchange. So bad example. Big Oil can try to spread fear, etc...but in the end, it's not easy to price fix something anyone can purchase on a commodities market. AT&T and Verizon, however, don't deal in commodities that people can buy, like "I just bought 500000 gigs of data" and I'm gonna hoard it because it's a finite commodity. Apples and Oranges here. Their price fixing it much simpler...you charge 50$ for data...and so will we! Edited March 21, 2011 by Y2HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Mar 21, 2011 -> 09:47 AM) Sorry but the oil industry cannot price fix the same way that AT&T and Verizon can, since oil is traded on the public commodities exchange. So bad example. Big Oil can try to spread fear, etc...but in the end, it's not easy to price fix something anyone can purchase on a commodities market. AT&T and Verizon, however, don't deal in commodities that people can buy, like "I just bought 500000 gigs of data" and I'm gonna hoard it because it's a finite commodity. Apples and Oranges here. Their price fixing it much simpler...you charge 50$ for data...and so will we! So, as far as I can tell, you're saying that it's actually easier and more legal for telecom companies to wind up price fixing, because data isn't a publicly traded commodity...yet somehow I'm supposed to think that ATT and VZN will be scared of the threat of legal action? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuskyCaucasian Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Mar 21, 2011 -> 07:57 AM) So what happens with Sprint now? I figured they were going to merge with TMobile. Nothing. they wont eb allowed to merge with Verizon, even if they wanted to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 21, 2011 -> 08:49 AM) So, as far as I can tell, you're saying that it's actually easier and more legal for telecom companies to wind up price fixing, because data isn't a publicly traded commodity...yet somehow I'm supposed to think that ATT and VZN will be scared of the threat of legal action? It's easier because they can just decide to set a price, where Big Oil can't just set a price...because the street sets it. That said, it's REALLY easy to get busted if you make a back room deal to price fix. I don't think AT&T and Verizon would do it...they may, but I just don't see it happening. Just one executive, secretary, janitor or someone that overhears has to blow the whistle...and your kingdom falls apart...and the company replaces you and anyone involved within a days time... Then you get to spend some time in jail and lose all your money fighting it in court. Most executives have less than zero interest in price fixing these days, putting their jobs on the line knowing they will probably get busted. Back in the day, executives didn't make millions per year and have millions upon millions in stock, with stock prices in the mid 30's...so the risk to price fix may have been worth the possible reward...these days, they already have everything. Edited March 21, 2011 by Y2HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuskyCaucasian Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Mar 21, 2011 -> 08:03 AM) Monopolizing into Americas only GSM network may not fly Dont think in the short term. In the long term, ALL US carriers are going LTE, and eventually voice and data will eb going over LTE. Sprint is Wi-Max, but there are VERY heavy rumors that they are going to bolt for LTE. So, in 3-5 years, all US carriers will be LTE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Athomeboy_2000 @ Mar 21, 2011 -> 09:00 AM) Dont think in the short term. In the long term, ALL US carriers are going LTE, and eventually voice and data will eb going over LTE. Sprint is Wi-Max, but there are VERY heavy rumors that they are going to bolt for LTE. So, in 3-5 years, all US carriers will be LTE. I'm not thinking short term, GSM isn't going away anytime soon, and right now is right now. 3-5 years is 3-5 years. For the next FEW years, they now have a GSM monopoly. LTE is here, but it's going to grow slowly, especially until the LTE chipsets mature and don't suck battery like they are right now. That new Verizion 4G phone sucks...when using the LTE network, the phone has a total life of about 2 hours from full charge. That's next to useless. WiMax is 3G.5, it's not 4G, and it never was. Edited March 21, 2011 by Y2HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Mar 21, 2011 -> 09:58 AM) It's easier because they can just decide to set a price, where Big Oil can't just set a price...because the street sets it. That said, it's REALLY easy to get busted if you make a back room deal to price fix. I don't think AT&T and Verizon would do it...they may, but I just don't see it happening. Just one executive, secretary, janitor or someone that overhears has to blow the whistle...and your kingdom falls apart...and the company replaces you and anyone involved within a days time... Then you get to spend some time in jail and lose all your money fighting it in court. Most executives have less than zero interest in price fixing these days, putting their jobs on the line knowing they will probably get busted. Back in the day, executives didn't make millions per year and have millions upon millions in stock, with stock prices in the mid 30's...so the risk to price fix may have been worth the possible reward...these days, they already have everything. They don't have to officially do the backroom deal to notice when their only real competitor raised their prices by 25%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 21, 2011 -> 11:23 AM) They don't have to officially do the backroom deal to notice when their only real competitor raised their prices by 25%. They sure don't...but if we see nothing but upward price pressure after this merger, they'd risk being busted up again...I don't think it's a risk they'd be willing to take again. Then again, you never really know...maybe they've forgotten what happened last time, after all, it was a long time ago...and they may be egotistical enough to think it won't happen again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Mar 21, 2011 -> 12:25 PM) They sure don't...but if we see nothing but upward price pressure after this merger, they'd risk being busted up again...I don't think it's a risk they'd be willing to take again. Then again, you never really know...maybe they've forgotten what happened last time, after all, it was a long time ago...and they may be egotistical enough to think it won't happen again. How many mergers have we seen undone in the past 25 years because of excessive upwards price pressure? The answer winds up being "we need less regulation not more competition". Then prices go up farther. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 21, 2011 -> 11:29 AM) How many mergers have we seen undone in the past 25 years because of excessive upwards price pressure? The answer winds up being "we need less regulation not more competition". Then prices go up farther. Well...I'm not entirely sure where you get this...but most consumer products have become cheaper, not more expensive. 10 years ago a 50" Plasma TV cost about 10 grand. Today they cost about 600$. Same goes for computer products, etc. And we aren't talking about lesser quality. Newer faster processors are often cheaper than their predecessors were at release. The only thing I see getting more expensive is automobiles...well, and food/gas, but I don't consider them in the same class of products. For the record, my cell phone bill is 150$ with 2 iPhones and 1 other phone on it. 7 years ago, my Verizon bill was 150$ with just 1 smartphone on it. Again...cheaper. Edited March 21, 2011 by Y2HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Mar 21, 2011 -> 12:34 PM) Well...I'm not entirely sure where you get this...but most consumer products have become cheaper, not more expensive. 10 years ago a 50" Plasma TV cost about 10 grand. Today they cost about 600$. Same goes for computer products, etc. And we aren't talking about lesser quality. Newer faster processors are often cheaper than their predecessors were at release. The only thing I see getting more expensive is automobiles...well, and food/gas, but I don't consider them in the same class of products. Has the price of wireless service gone up or down over the last decade? I'd say that the bare minimum plans have pretty much tracked inflation, while the upper level plans have skyrocketed in price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 21, 2011 -> 11:35 AM) Has the price of wireless service gone up or down over the last decade? I'd say that the bare minimum plans have pretty much tracked inflation, while the upper level plans have skyrocketed in price. Down. I edited my post to reflect this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 (edited) The reason why most people think wireless is more expensive today is because they didn't have a smartphone years ago...but I did, so I know the difference in cost...and they're less today than they were then. Not to mention 500x faster. The issue stems from the fact you probably had a dataless phone with some T9 Texts...if you had a phone like that now, your bill would be like 20$ a month. Edited March 21, 2011 by Y2HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 How on earth could anyone claim that wireless prices have gone up!?!??! Dear Lord, text messages used to be expensive as s***. I now have a computer in the palm of my hand capable of displaying and delivering limitless data and pay monthly about the same as I did in 2002. Of course, I'm also on Sprint... which makes me a smart person with a smartphone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Mar 21, 2011 -> 12:42 PM) How on earth could anyone claim that wireless prices have gone up!?!??! Dear Lord, text messages used to be expensive as s***. I now have a computer in the palm of my hand capable of displaying and delivering limitless data and pay monthly about the same as I did in 2002. Of course, I'm also on Sprint... which makes me a smart person with a smartphone. Adding more capabilities is not what I meant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 21, 2011 -> 11:50 AM) Adding more capabilities is not what I meant. No sh*t, you skipped over the part of how I am still paying the same bill as I was 8 years ago despite getting all of those capabilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Mar 21, 2011 -> 12:21 PM) No sh*t, you skipped over the part of how I am still paying the same bill as I was 8 years ago despite getting all of those capabilities. I knew there would come a time that I agree with the guy with the Bruce Wayne avatar from when he was in American Psycho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 21, 2011 -> 08:08 AM) It's only funny if you're either an AT&T executive, a telecom lobbyist, or you use no telecommunications services whatsoever. If you're not in one of those 3 groups, then I'd say it's much more tragic. Except that worldcom is on the other side of the fence which turned out to be really good for Att. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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