SN: Sox Say No to Jim Thome

[Sox72]

You say this about EVERY former White Sox player. If Carlton Fisk came outta 17-year old retirement at age, what, 70, and joined the Twins you would say he's going to no doubt kick our ass.

 

The only problem with that is that the Twins still have Joe Mauer, so I doubt Fisk would get a lot of playing time.

[southsider2k5]

You say this about EVERY former White Sox player. If Carlton Fisk came outta 17-year old retirement at age, what, 70, and joined the Twins you would say he's going to no doubt kick our ass.

 

If nothing else, he would still kick Deion Sanders ass.

[Wanne]

I guess my take on it isn't about Jim's bat but more about a change in mentality in the locker room. Not that Jim's not a great teammate and good clubhouse guy...but I think much conversation was had last year about the mentality in the locker room and the younger players being a bit stagnated or muted with the presence of guys like Konerko, Dye and Thome. I wish JD and Jimmy all the best and will always love them for their time with the Sox and their contributions. But I do think it's time to move on.

[RockRaines]

Thank God this is over.

[southsider2k5]

This is by far not over. Everytime the DH goes Oh Fer, it will come back up.

[MHizzle85]

Thank God this is over.

I wish, but some people on this board like to beat a dead horse...

[Steve9347]

Actually, to be accurate. Thomas was the DH for most of the season. When Everett replaced him, the team started to lose their 10+ game lead on Cleveland.

Really, Jeremy? You've forgotten that much already? Thomas came back, had a hot bat and jacked an obscene amount of taters over a short span... I'd be suprised if he even played 35 games that year.

[G&T]

Matt Spiegal read an interesting stat. Of the last 10 ALCS champs, only 4 had a player start 100 games at DH and 2 were David Ortiz. So actually, the concept is perfectly acceptable. Of course, if you have the Yankees production at other places, the decision is much easier.

[LittleHurt05]

Matt Spiegal read an interesting stat. Of the last 10 ALCS champs, only 4 had a player start 100 games at DH and 2 were David Ortiz. So actually, the concept is perfectly acceptable. Of course, if you have the Yankees production at other places, the decision is much easier.

 

From baseballreference.com

 

2009 - Matsui (116 games at DH), Posada (9), A-Rod (9)

2008 - Cliff Floyd (72), Gomes (24), Hinske (18)

2007 - Ortiz (140), Ramirez (11), Lugo (1)

2006 - Thames (43), Dm. Young (40), Monroe (30)

2005 - Everett (105), Thomas (28), Konerko (11)

2004 - Ortiz (114), Ramirez (18), Millar (8)

2003 - Giambi (69), Nick Johnson (30), Sierra (27)

2002 - Brad Fullmer (90), Salmon (21), Shawn Wooten (18)

2001 - Justice (95), Knoblauch (22), Spencer (14)

2000 - Spencer (33, Jose Canseco (26), Glenallen Hill (23)

[RockRaines]

From baseballreference.com

 

2009 - Matsui (116 games at DH), Posada (9), A-Rod (9)

2008 - Cliff Floyd (72), Gomes (24), Hinske (18)

2007 - Ortiz (140), Ramirez (11), Lugo (1)

2006 - Thames (43), Dm. Young (40), Monroe (30)

2005 - Everett (105), Thomas (28), Konerko (11)

2004 - Ortiz (114), Ramirez (18), Millar (8)

2003 - Giambi (69), Nick Johnson (30), Sierra (27)

2002 - Brad Fullmer (90), Salmon (21), Shawn Wooten (18)

2001 - Justice (95), Knoblauch (22), Spencer (14)

2000 - Spencer (33, Jose Canseco (26), Glenallen Hill (23)

but but but, I though Thomas was our full time DH?

 

Those all look like rotations to me.

[ThunderBolt]

but but but, I though Thomas was our full time DH?

 

Those all look like rotations to me.

And yet none of them involve players like Mark Kotsay, and Omar Visqeul. They all involve viable major league options for the DH.

[RockRaines]

And yet none of them involve players like Mark Kotsay, and Omar Visqeul. They all involve viable major league options for the DH.

Take another look at that list again. Kotsay and Jones fit pretty good into that list actually. Vizquel is a backup infielder and wont see more than 5 games at DH if even that.

[LittleHurt05]

And yet none of them involve players like Mark Kotsay, and Omar Visqeul. They all involve viable major league options for the DH.

 

I'd say there are at least 4 or 5 that compare somewhat evenly with Kotsay/Jones

 

2009 - Matsui (116 games at DH), Posada (9), A-Rod (9)

2008 - Cliff Floyd (72), Gomes (24), Hinske (18)

2007 - Ortiz (140), Ramirez (11), Lugo (1)

2006 - Thames (43), Dm. Young (40), Monroe (30)

2005 - Everett (105), Thomas (28), Konerko (11)

2004 - Ortiz (114), Ramirez (18), Millar (8)

2003 - Giambi (69), Nick Johnson (30), Sierra (27)

2002 - Brad Fullmer (90), Salmon (21), Shawn Wooten (18)

2001 - Justice (95), Knoblauch (22), Spencer (14)

2000 - Spencer (33, Jose Canseco (26), Glenallen Hill (23)

[ThunderBolt]

I'd say there are at least 4 or 5 that compare somewhat evenly with Kotsay/Jones

 

2009 - Matsui (116 games at DH), Posada (9), A-Rod (9)

2008 - Cliff Floyd (72), Gomes (24), Hinske (18)

2007 - Ortiz (140), Ramirez (11), Lugo (1)

2006 - Thames (43), Dm. Young (40), Monroe (30)

2005 - Everett (105), Thomas (28), Konerko (11)

2004 - Ortiz (114), Ramirez (18), Millar (8)

2003 - Giambi (69), Nick Johnson (30), Sierra (27)

2002 - Brad Fullmer (90), Salmon (21), Shawn Wooten (18)

2001 - Justice (95), Knoblauch (22), Spencer (14)

2000 - Spencer (33, Jose Canseco (26), Glenallen Hill (23)

I didn't ask to compare Jones. I think Jones is a decent gamble for us, if Q is the DH. I'm asking given the circumstances, our full roster, can we afford rolling the dice on the DH spot on guys like Kotsay and Visqeul picking up AB's as part of a platoon. The Yankees could back in 01 and 02, because they had elite offenses. As did the majority of these others teams.

[Harry Chappas]

Matt Spiegal read an interesting stat. Of the last 10 ALCS champs, only 4 had a player start 100 games at DH and 2 were David Ortiz. So actually, the concept is perfectly acceptable. Of course, if you have the Yankees production at other places, the decision is much easier.

 

and those are the only four to win the WS correct?

[LittleHurt05]

I didn't ask to compare Jones. I think Jones is a decent gamble for us, if Q is the DH. I'm asking given the circumstances, our full roster, can we afford rolling the dice on the DH spot on guys like Kotsay and Visqeul picking up AB's as part of a platoon. The Yankees could back in 01 and 02, because they had elite offenses. As did the majority of these others teams.

 

I dont see Vizquel getting very many AB's as DH. He'd be more likely to start at 2B/SS while Beckham or Alexei fill the DH spot on a day off from the field. When all of our projected starters are in the lineup, its only gonna be Jones or Kotsay DHing.

[RockRaines]

I didn't ask to compare Jones. I think Jones is a decent gamble for us, if Q is the DH. I'm asking given the circumstances, our full roster, can we afford rolling the dice on the DH spot on guys like Kotsay and Visqeul picking up AB's as part of a platoon. The Yankees could back in 01 and 02, because they had elite offenses. As did the majority of these others teams.

That makes no sense since you omitted the name of a player who WILL be in the DH rotation and injected the name of a backup infielder who probably wont spend more than 5 if any games at DH so you could make your point.

[chunk23]

Matt Spiegal read an interesting stat. Of the last 10 ALCS champs, only 4 had a player start 100 games at DH and 2 were David Ortiz. So actually, the concept is perfectly acceptable. Of course, if you have the Yankees production at other places, the decision is much easier.

 

Why not expand the list to AL playoff teams instead? It helps to have a larger sample size.

 

I'd say there are at least 4 or 5 that compare somewhat evenly with Kotsay/Jones

 

2009 - Matsui (116 games at DH), Posada (9), A-Rod (9)

2008 - Cliff Floyd (72), Gomes (24), Hinske (18)

2007 - Ortiz (140), Ramirez (11), Lugo (1)

2006 - Thames (43), Dm. Young (40), Monroe (30)

2005 - Everett (105), Thomas (28), Konerko (11)

2004 - Ortiz (114), Ramirez (18), Millar (8)

2003 - Giambi (69), Nick Johnson (30), Sierra (27)

2002 - Brad Fullmer (90), Salmon (21), Shawn Wooten (18)

2001 - Justice (95), Knoblauch (22), Spencer (14)

2000 - Spencer (33, Jose Canseco (26), Glenallen Hill (23)

 

Of those that you think are comparable, Floyd was pretty good in 08, Fullmer was pretty good, and Justice had a massive drop in numbers that year, and he's only five games from the cutoff. Change the cutoff to 95, which isn't really major, and you have 5 of 10, with at least three of the other rotations clearly outclassing what we can expect from Jones/Kotsay.

 

edit: Thames is definitely better than Jones/Kotsay and that 2000 rotation is pretty good too. The latter two had good years and Spencer's numbers are easily the ceiling of what you can expect from either of Jones/Kotsay. Honestly, it really looks like every single one of those rotations is way better than the Sox rotation.

Edited January 26, 2010 by chunk23

[Harry Chappas]

The White Sox better hope Quentin and Kotsay stay healthy all year......something that is almost guaranteed not to happen

 

I bet Vizquel and Nix DH at least a combined 10 times this year.

[elrockinMT]

I think we need some more offense. Losing both Dye and Thome lessens our offense and I don't see where we have added anything in the offensive category. The idea of a DH by committee has some magic ring to it, but the realiity is you need bats to drive in runs. I don't see the improvement with what we have added and that includes Rios. The best we will possibly have is Rios maybe matching Dye powerwise. He hasn't shown much for awhile now and this hype about his last ten games of 2009 means nothing unless he can do it over 162 games in 2010. Andruw Jones and Vizquel are on the down side and are role players. Kenny Williams is kidding himself if he thinks different. I am interested in seeing what develops out of ST, but it had better be something.

Edited January 26, 2010 by elrockinMT

[greg775]

You say this about EVERY former White Sox player. If Carlton Fisk came outta 17-year old retirement at age, what, 70, and joined the Twins you would say he's going to no doubt kick our ass.

 

Jordan I do worry about this with former players, especially if they go to the Central because we play them so many times.

[LittleHurt05]

Why not expand the list to AL playoff teams instead? It helps to have a larger sample size.

 

Of those that you think are comparable, Floyd was pretty good in 08, Fullmer was pretty good, and Justice had a massive drop in numbers that year, and he's only five games from the cutoff. Change the cutoff to 95, which isn't really major, and you have 5 of 10, with at least three of the other rotations clearly outclassing what we can expect from Jones/Kotsay.

 

edit: Thames is definitely better than Jones/Kotsay and that 2000 rotation is pretty good too. The latter two had good years and Spencer's numbers are easily the ceiling of what you can expect from either of Jones/Kotsay. Honestly, it really looks like every single one of those rotations is way better than the Sox rotation.

 

Wow, looking over some of the numbers, a lot of those platoons had way better numbers (especially power) than I would have expected from the names, especially Eric f***ing Hinske. But I guess that is part of winning championships in baseball, getting some luck/career years. In 2000, Glenallen Hill hit 16 homers in 132 ABs, a .735 SLG, wow.

 

Of the last 10 years of AL playoff teams, only 15 of 40 teams had the same player start at DH over 100 games, and 5 of those 15 were Big Papi in Boston. If you make the cut off 90 games, its still only 18 of 40. The platoon can definitely work. I also think the DH spot will consist of way more TCQ than people realize, especially considering his heel injuries & how much better Jones is at defense. Our DH spot might not match some of the other groups, but they can still be productive. Whether or not Rios can play up to his talent and if TCQ can stay healthy and play like its 2008 are way more important factors for our offense, IMO.

Edited January 26, 2010 by LittleHurt05

[caulfield12]

I think we need some more offense. Losing both Dye and Thome lessens our offense and I don't see where we have added anything in the offensive category. The idea of a DH by committee has some magic ring to it, but the realiity is you need bats to drive in runs. I don't see the improvement with what we have added and that includes Rios. The best we will possibly have is Rios maybe matching Dye powerwise. He hasn't shown much for awhile now and this hype about his last ten games of 2009 means nothing unless he can do it over 162 games in 2010. Andruw Jones and Vizquel are on the down side and are role players. Kenny Williams is kidding himself if he thinks different. I am interested in seeing what develops out of ST, but it had better be something.

 

What would the Vegas odds be that Alex Rios ever puts up a 30 or 35 homer season for the White Sox?

 

I would imagine they wouldn't be too good. I think 18-24 homers is a lot more likely. Heck, I would take 20 and call it a day and hope that Quentin returns to AL MVP form or we're cooked.

[ThunderBolt]

The problem with the team is how many assumptions we have to make to make things look bright. Say what you want about Thome, but he was usually a lock to put up his numbers. Now, I’d contend that Aj us the only real lock to put up his year-years. We're gambling on nearly everything else. We want Rios to be the guy from two years ago, Teahen to be the guy Billy Beane thought he could be, Beckham to have a strong sophomore season, Konerko not to continue to decline, and so on so forth. I'm not saying these guys aren't going to get their numbers, I think Beckham is a special player, Rios' struggles can be overcome, it's just a hell of a thing to know that everything needs to fall in the right way to just get past not having a real DH. If half the team stays consistent, we’ll be okay, if half of them rebound we’ll be better, but that’s a heck of a lot of “if’s.” We have such a good pitching staff, why the risk?

[caulfield12]

The problem with the team is how many assumptions we have to make to make things look bright. Say what you want about Thome, but he was usually a lock to put up his numbers. Now, I’d contend that Aj us the only real lock to put up his year-years. We're gambling on nearly everything else. We want Rios to be the guy from two years ago, Teahen to be the guy Billy Beane thought he could be, Beckham to have a strong sophomore season, Konerko not to continue to decline, and so on so forth. I'm not saying these guys aren't going to get their numbers, I think Beckham is a special player, Rios' struggles can be overcome, it's just a hell of a thing to know that everything needs to fall in the right way to just get past not having a real DH. If half the team stays consistent, we’ll be okay, if half of them rebound we’ll be better, but that’s a heck of a lot of “if’s.” We have such a good pitching staff, why the risk?

 

 

I'll even give you that Konerko, Beckham and Ramirez SHOULD be able to repeat their career totals. I wouldn't even call AJ a "sure thing" as he is getting older now too, but I tend to agree with you. We'll have to get closer to 70 RBI's from him than 45-50 though.

 

The big problem is the "maybes/what if's/possibly" you have with five spots in our line-up.

 

The Twins have 2-3 in that category, we have easily five, if not more (as you say, 8).