Republican 2012 Nomination Thread

[StrangeSox]

lol, crap. i haven't had my coffee yet.

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/style_images.../rte-italic.png

And that was just a jab about how you always consider personal anecdotes irrelevant as a basis for explaining one's perspective on a given issue.

 

Anecdotes are fine for explaining your own perspective. What Balta and I have to frequently point out is that they are only good for your perspective and they are not data for larger trends. You can't use them to support a claim larger than your personal experience.

[Jenksismyhero]

That she filed bankruptcy in the past has no real bearing on her credibility. It is simply to tarnish her character.

 

So apparently if you're Cain, all this s*** can be brought up (including past settlements that are neutral as to what actually happened) because "where there's smoke, there's fire," but all the various crap about this lady's past is not fair game in judging whether she might have had some other motive to suddenly, ten years later, come out with some statements and parade around on the talk show circuit.

 

And again, just to be clear, I think it's pretty obvious that Cain DOES have an abuse of power issue, and he probably IS a womanizer. That does NOT mean that my original argument - that this lady seems like someone who is doing this for the opportunity of it, not to further some righteous cause - is wrong.

 

[StrangeSox]

So apparently if you're Cain, all this s*** can be brought up (including past settlements that are neutral as to what actually happened) because "where there's smoke, there's fire," but all the various crap about this lady's past is not fair game in judging whether she might have had some other motive to suddenly, ten years later, come out with some statements and parade around on the talk show circuit.

 

And again, just to be clear, I think it's pretty obvious that Cain DOES have an abuse of power issue, and he probably IS a womanizer. That does NOT mean that my original argument - that this lady seems like someone who is doing this for the opportunity of it, not to further some righteous cause - is wrong.

 

She might be doing it for the money, but do you at least the larger issue with taking that line of argumentation, given the history of victim shaming in abuse and harassment cases?

[StrangeSox]

"Has any recent major presidential candidate shown as little mastery of the basics, when it comes to policy matters, as Cain? ... Yet some defenders of Cain actually celebrate his lack of knowledge, portraying it as a virtue, a sign that he’s an outsider, a non-establishment figure, authentic, the appealing anti-politician. ... In the 1980s, one of the Republican Party’s main sources of attraction to younger conservatives like myself was its growing reputation for intellectual seriousness. “Of a sudden,” wrote Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, a Democrat, in 1981, “the GOP has become a party of ideas.” The way such things happen is by rewarding intellectual excellence among those vying for the presidency rather than making excuses for their lack of knowledge," - Pete Wehner, Commentary.

[Jenksismyhero]

She might be doing it for the money, but do you at least the larger issue with taking that line of argumentation, given the history of victim shaming in abuse and harassment cases?

 

I suppose, but I'm not going to agree that in every case I should automatically assume that the victim is a true victim and that he/she is 100% honest. It's the other way around - we should be questioning the accuser and assuming the accused is innocent. This is entirely different than the "she was asking for it because she's got a history of being a loose woman" type case too btw.

 

I probably wouldn't have said anything about this case if this lady hadn't paraded in front of cameras with a Hollywood attorney shortly after a few anonymous reports came out. The timing seemed very questionable, and almost textbook "now that this story is getting national play, i'll move to be the face of it." My bulls*** meter really went off when she talked about doing this not for any personal gain (so admirable) but instead to protect other women and to out him as some bastard. Oh and because she talked to her 13 year old son, who gave her the courage and ok to do it. The stuff about her past just adds to the pile.

[Rex Kickass]

That does NOT mean that my original argument - that this lady seems like someone who is doing this for the opportunity of it, not to further some righteous cause - is wrong.

 

I would argue that Cain is the one doing this campaign for fame and fortune. He's running it more like a book tour than an election campaign to be honest.

 

What financial benefit could there really be for her if she isn't charging for her appearances on morning shows? Not much, I don't think.

[Jenksismyhero]

I would argue that Cain is the one doing this campaign for fame and fortune. He's running it more like a book tour than an election campaign to be honest.

 

What financial benefit could there really be for her if she isn't charging for her appearances on morning shows? Not much, I don't think.

 

I haven't read anything about her not being paid. She said that she wasn't paid to come forward at her press conference. Has she denied getting paid for her appearances?

Even still, she's still getting national publicity and job opportunities as a result.

[southsider2k5]

So in tonight's campaign, Rick Perry says he wants to eliminate three departments from the federal government.

 

Then he can only name two of them.

 

And yet 57 states get you elected President...

[CrimsonWeltall]

And yet 57 states get you elected President...

 

Accidentally say "57" instead of "47" = can't remember your own policies

[Rex Kickass]

I haven't read anything about her not being paid. She said that she wasn't paid to come forward at her press conference. Has she denied getting paid for her appearances?

Even still, she's still getting national publicity and job opportunities as a result.

 

I can't recall, but I believe that she said she was accepting no money for morning show appearances either.

[StrangeSox]

And yet 57 states get you elected President...

 

Perry's incompetence is getting liberals to say nice things about Bush's debating and speaking skills.

[Balta1701]

Don't think I've seen a candidate who has crashed and burned in a period of 2 months. more in my life.

Howard Dean. 1 week instead of 2 months.

[StrangeSox]

I haven't read anything about her not being paid. She said that she wasn't paid to come forward at her press conference. Has she denied getting paid for her appearances?

Even still, she's still getting national publicity and job opportunities as a result.

 

You understand that this calls into question the motives of anyone who accuses someone powerful of abuse or harassment?

[EvilMonkey]

You understand that this calls into question the motives of anyone who accuses someone powerful of abuse or harassment?

You don't think her motives would be questioned if she were confortably rich? All being poor does is give her one more possible motive. Because we all know that poor victims NEVER make s*** up looking for a payday. That poor stripper in the Duke case? 100% truth, peeps. Don't be hatin'!

[EvilMonkey]

Well this should win you friends, Herman Cain.

 

http://hermancainpac.com/2011/11/herman-ca...E2%80%99s-ugly/

Hey Rex? FYI, that was a hoax site.

 

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/11/09/1...-lie?via=recent

 

Several lefty sites have said sorry to their readers. Should have instead said sorry to Cain for the vitriol they spewed regarding that specific joke site.

[StrangeSox]

You don't think her motives would be questioned if she were confortably rich? All being poor does is give her one more possible motive. Because we all know that poor victims NEVER make s*** up looking for a payday. That poor stripper in the Duke case? 100% truth, peeps. Don't be hatin'!

 

All being poor does is make you powerless and more likely to be victimized.

[Rex Kickass]

Hey Rex? FYI, that was a hoax site.

 

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/11/09/1...-lie?via=recent

 

Several lefty sites have said sorry to their readers. Should have instead said sorry to Cain for the vitriol they spewed regarding that specific joke site.

 

Well, count me as duped. Looked fairly realistic, I have to admit. I spent a few minutes looking if it was a hoax myself and didn't see anything that led me to believe otherwise.

[Jenksismyhero]

You understand that this calls into question the motives of anyone who accuses someone powerful of abuse or harassment?

 

Is that a bad thing?

 

And I still think you have to look at the total context here, not just that one aspect of it.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Jenksismybitch

[Balta1701]

Presidential candidates (Obama included) as Dungeons and Dragons characters.

[StrangeSox]

Is that a bad thing?

 

Yes. Unequivocally. It's a pure protection/veneration of power.

[Jenksismyhero]

Yes. Unequivocally. It's a pure protection/veneration of power.

 

If you accuse someone of something, especially something sexual in nature (which goes to your moral/ethical belief systems) then you damn well better be able to question the motives of the accuser and assume that the accused is innocent until proven otherwise. This has nothing to do with power or authority.

 

Edit: let me ask you this - should an accuser have to confront the accused? or can they just make their claims and hide in their homes until the matter is decided? After all, wouldn't want those rich authority figures to question whether the accusations are credible!

Edited November 10, 2011 by Jenksismybitch

[StrangeSox]

You're ignoring the entire reality of victim shaming.

 

That she filed bankruptcy at some point in her life is completely irrelevant. It doesn't even truly speak to her character. It doesn't lower her credibility. It simply is an attempt to tarnish her character; it's literally an ad hominem.

 

You can assume that the person is innocent. You can legitimately question motives if there is a good reason to question motives. That is completely different from ripping apart someone's life in order to diminish their claims. The problem isn't that maybe something is dishonest or misleading and she's really a good person; the problem is that bad people can be abused too and deserve no less protection under the law. That Daily Mail article you posted earlier is disgusting and a perfect example of the problem.

[Jenksismyhero]

You're ignoring the entire reality of victim shaming.

 

That she filed bankruptcy at some point in her life is completely irrelevant. It doesn't even truly speak to her character. It doesn't lower her credibility. It simply is an attempt to tarnish her character; it's literally an ad hominem.

 

You can assume that the person is innocent. You can legitimately question motives if there is a good reason to question motives. That is completely different from ripping apart someone's life in order to diminish their claims. The problem isn't that maybe something is dishonest or misleading and she's really a good person; the problem is that bad people can be abused too and deserve no less protection under the law. That Daily Mail article you posted earlier is disgusting and a perfect example of the problem.

 

If someone was shouting "look! this woman accusing Cain of SH filed for bankruptcy in 1998....GOLD DIGGER!" then i'd agree with you. But as i've explained numerous times, look at the whole picture. IMO she's full of s*** and looking to cash in on the opportunity here.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Jenksismybitch

[StrangeSox]

If someone was shouting "look! this woman accusing Cain of SH filed for bankruptcy in 1998....GOLD DIGGER!" then i'd agree with you. But as i've explained numerous times, look at the whole picture.

IMO she's full of s*** and looking to cash in on the opportunity here.

 

That's essentially what the campaign letter does. "She's not a successful person like Cain, why would you believe her?!"

 

We also have no indication that she's being paid to have her name and history dragged through the mud.

[Jenksismyhero]

That's essentially what the campaign letter does. "She's not a successful person like Cain, why would you believe her?!"

 

We also have no indication that she's being paid to have her name and history dragged through the mud.

 

No but this was interesting:

 

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=47438

 

 

 

And yes, it's Coulter, but it does put this whole incident into a very interesting context.