Forgive Student Loan Debt to Stimulate the Economy

[Soxbadger]

And at that point you will see less people applying for college which will result in college tuition going down.

 

What is funny is that if you ask college professors, etc they would ikely say that they are underpaid and underfunded.

 

 

[iamshack]

More people want to go to college.

 

There are the same amount of good colleges.

 

Therefore college tuition will continue to increase until there is a decrease in supply of college applicants or demand for higher education.

 

If college isnt worth as much, why are more people applying to college and graduate schools each year?

 

I know that I wouldnt have my job without my degrees, you cant have my job without it.

 

I dont like how much college costs, but I understand its a competitive market.

 

When the job market and the economy suck, people use the opportunity to further their education. The class sizes of universities swell during bad job markets.

[iamshack]

More people want to go to college.

 

There are the same amount of good colleges.

 

Therefore college tuition will continue to increase until there is a decrease in supply of college applicants or demand for higher education.

 

If college isnt worth as much, why are more people applying to college and graduate schools each year?

 

I know that I wouldnt have my job without my degrees, you cant have my job without it.

 

I dont like how much college costs, but I understand its a competitive market.

Why did people keep paying more and more and more for housing up until the housing bubble burst?

[Soxbadger]

Why did people keep paying more and more and more for housing up until the housing bubble burst?

 

Because people believed that land was scarce, and because the supply of land was constant and demand was always increasing, that the price of land must always go up.

 

Unfortunately many people did not realize that condominiums could artificially increase supply beyond the point of demand, creating an over saturated market.

 

Its really a poor comparison about housing and college. You cant build unlimited colleges, and you cant create top colleges out of thin air.

[nitetrain8601]

I think we're getting two different arguments which is where some people are getting confused. Do I personally think college is beneficial? Yes, if you're going into a specific field which needs extra training or a specific field that you want to study. College also makes you much more rounded as a person from my college experience.

 

What I'm arguing is at this point in time, the spending power of someone who didn't go to college is closing in on the gap for those who did graduate from college a little too close, because of all of these student loans and debts. If I had to guess, the largest buying demographic for impulsive buyers would be those between the ages of 18-45. Now as a college student who needs to pay his loan off, I'm going to try and pay off that loan first before buying that big screen tv or building a media room. A non-college student may have to save up initially, but would be able to build that new media room probably faster than the college grad because he doesn't have $100,000 in student loans pending for his household.

 

To end, I'll say this. Life is what you make it. There are college grads who will throw all their money at their student loans to pay it off early by living in their mom's basement for a year or two, then move out and will have tons of money to play with. There are also smart high school grads who worked and invested money in the stock market and have just as much money to play with. All in all, whatever you do, you have to work hard at it and do your homework!

[nitetrain8601]

When the job market and the economy suck, people use the opportunity to further their education. The class sizes of universities swell during bad job markets.

 

That's correct. There's a ton of classes as UIC that have 400-500 students.

[ptatc]

And at that point you will see less people applying for college which will result in college tuition going down.

 

What is funny is that if you ask college professors, etc they would ikely say that they are underpaid and underfunded.

 

Being a university professor and involved with a state university, I can tell you that your first statement will not happen for state schools. We are slowly going from state schools to state supported schools to state associated schools. All of which will drive up costs with no change in services.

 

We have not received the money for our budget from the state since September. The state owes us millions. Because of this we are having to run the school on generating our own income like private institutions. Most of this money comes from tuition which means we need to raise the tuition to offset the money budgeted to us by the state. However, the state put a cap on how much we can raise tuition in an "attempt" to keep us affordable. This is why an in-state student is having difficulty getting into U of I because the university can charge the out of state student more. This encourages students to leave the state, which is not good for the state.

 

[nitetrain8601]

Being a university professor and involved with a state university, I can tell you that your first statement will not happen for state schools. We are slowly going from state schools to state supported schools to state associated schools. All of which will drive up costs with no change in services.

 

We have not received the money for our budget from the state since September. The state owes us millions. Because of this we are having to run the school on generating our own income like private institutions. Most of this money comes from tuition which means we need to raise the tuition to offset the money budgeted to us by the state. However, the state put a cap on how much we can raise tuition in an "attempt" to keep us affordable. This is why an in-state student is having difficulty getting into U of I because the university can charge the out of state student more. This encourages students to leave the state, which is not good for the state.

 

Nice insight Dr.

 

Maybe now is the time to get educated elsewhere since tuitions are going up so high in-state.

 

[Balta1701]

Maybe now is the time to get educated elsewhere since tuitions are going up so high in-state.

Trouble is, that's sorta the same everywhere. California, for example, the State Universities are a disaster area because the funding that used to be there from the state has dried up. The faculty members there have been required to take unpaid furloughs for a couple days a month, basically working without pay several days, to help the state cover its budget gaps. I wouldn't take a job at a UC system school right now if they gave me the best offer in the history of mankind. And it's getting like that everywhere.

[Texsox]

Again, where am I arguing anything should be free?

 

The other point I am trying to get across here, is that if we continue down this path, it will not be the key to earning more in your life. It will be a wasted investment.

 

Again I ask, what industry will those jobs in in? What jobs will offer decent wages without a college degree? Those jobs were manufacturing. Those are leaving in droves. I would like to agree with you, but I can't think of a job sector that will produce those jobs.

[Balta1701]

Again I ask, what industry will those jobs in in? What jobs will offer decent wages without a college degree? Those jobs were manufacturing. Those are leaving in droves. I would like to agree with you, but I can't think of a job sector that will produce those jobs.

What jobs will remain that will offer decent wages with a college degree?

[bmags]

a lot of money colleges make goes into "make-up" and recruitment, it's become abundantly clear that schools aren't necessarily interested in creating a better product, but are very much interested in finding a better student. Missouri had some of the best religious studies professors in the country, they all left, one by one. But we do have 43 flat screen tvs, because that's some of the s*** that US Weekly counts in "best colleges!" Also, when colleges raise the prices, they are seen as more prestigious, and quality of students actually rises.

 

As for ss2k5's question, i think it was always seen as a sort of entitlement. primary schools are an entitlement. And we wouldn't have state schools if people only thought it was an investment. Education is needed for our economy, but it looks like another case where in 30 years education is 13% of our GDP!!! Just kidding, but tuition is absurd. I went to a cheap out of state school with a scholarship taking off a significant amt. of money, and it was thousands more than we thought after 4 years because of inconsistencies in state budgets.

[ptatc]

Trouble is, that's sorta the same everywhere. California, for example, the State Universities are a disaster area because the funding that used to be there from the state has dried up. The faculty members there have been required to take unpaid furloughs for a couple days a month, basically working without pay several days, to help the state cover its budget gaps. I wouldn't take a job at a UC system school right now if they gave me the best offer in the history of mankind. And it's getting like that everywhere.

 

That's right. Most states are heading this way. Illinois and California are just the two worst examples. The educational institutions are good institutions they just aren't going to be as affordable as they previously were. If people want to go to college they are going to have to pay more.

 

U of I is doing the unpaid furloughs as well. Luckily we haven't hit that point yet but it may.

 

It's not just universities. Peotone school system (south of Chicago) is owed so much money from the state that they are shutting everything down. No sports, music, library etc. With the state not paying schools at all levels are in trouble.

 

[iamshack]

Again I ask, what industry will those jobs in in? What jobs will offer decent wages without a college degree? Those jobs were manufacturing. Those are leaving in droves. I would like to agree with you, but I can't think of a job sector that will produce those jobs.

I'm going to get back to this thread later on this evening when I have more time.

 

But one point I would like to make for you to chew on now, is that if you have any experience in the lower level job market (positions for recent college grads or employees in the beginning stages of their career), you know that employers almost would rather you not be highly trained in their field. Many corporations have individualized training programs and would rather train you in their method and manner than have to waste the time "untraining" you and then re-training you.

 

This is in large part why the value of a college degree has decreased and willingness to start at the bottom rung of the latter with a desire and willingness to move up has gained more of a foothold than in previous job markets.

[Balta1701]

I just want to know when a college degree became the point of entitlement, and not an investment in the rest of your life? If you know you have to spend $100,000 to make an extra million dollars over your lifetime, that pretty much clears it up for me.

Wow, do you guys plan debates around WSJ articles and then just expect me to find them and link to them? This is kind of incredible timing if you didn't plan this in advance.The WSJ posted this one...yesterday.

For years, higher education was touted as a safe path to professional and financial success. Graduates, it has long been argued, would be able to build solid careers that would earn them far more than their high-school educated counterparts.

 

The numbers appeared to back it up. In recent years, the nonprofit College Board touted the difference in lifetime earnings of college grads over high-school graduates at $800,000, a widely circulated figure. Other estimates topped $1 million.

 

But now, as tuition continues to skyrocket and many seeking to change careers are heading back to school, some researchers are questioning the methodology behind the high projections.

 

...

The problem stems from the common source of the estimates, a 2002 Census Bureau report titled "The Big Payoff." The report said the average high-school graduate earns $25,900 a year, and the average college graduate earns $45,400, based on 1999 data. The difference between the two figures is $19,500; multiply it by 40 years, as the Census Bureau did, the result is $780,000.

 

"The idea was not to produce a definitive 'This is what you'll earn' number, but to try and give some measure of the relative value of education attainments," says Eric Newburger, a lead researcher at the Census and the paper's co-author. "It's not a statement about the future, it's a statement about today."

 

Mark Schneider, a vice president of the American Institutes for Research, a nonprofit research organization based in Washington, calls it "a million-dollar misunderstanding."

 

One problem he sees with the estimates: They don't take into account deductions from income taxes or breaks in employment. Nor do they factor in debt, particularly student debt loads, which have ballooned for both public and private colleges in recent years. In addition, the income data used for the Census estimates is from 1999, when total expenses for tuition and fees at the average four-year private college were $15,518 per year. For the 2009-10 school year, that number has risen to $26,273, and it continues to increase at a rate higher than inflation.

 

Dr. Schneider estimated the actual lifetime-earnings advantage for college graduates is a mere $279,893 in report he wrote last year. He included tuition payments and discounted earning streams, putting them into present value. He also used actual salary data for graduates 10 years after they completed their degrees to measure incomes. Even among graduates of top-tier institutions, the earnings came in well below the million-dollar mark, he says.

[ptatc]

I'm going to get back to this thread later on this evening when I have more time.

 

But one point I would like to make for you to chew on now, is that if you have any experience in the lower level job market (positions for recent college grads or employees in the beginning stages of their career), you know that employers almost would rather you not be highly trained in their field. Many corporations have individualized training programs and would rather train you in their method and manner than have to waste the time "untraining" you and then re-training you.

 

This is in large part why the value of a college degree has decreased and willingness to start at the bottom rung of the latter with a desire and willingness to move up has gained more of a foothold than in previous job markets.

 

Wow, somebody has watched "Secret of my Success" too many times (although Helen Slater may have been worth it)

[southsider2k5]

Wow, do you guys plan debates around WSJ articles and then just expect me to find them and link to them? This is kind of incredible timing if you didn't plan this in advance.The WSJ posted this one...yesterday.

 

The funny thing is, I got the number from the federal government's website. How's that for irony. You used the WSJ and I trusted the feds.

 

Also, you heard Balta take the message from a college professor. Drop out, it isn't worth it.

[iamshack]

Wow, do you guys plan debates around WSJ articles and then just expect me to find them and link to them? This is kind of incredible timing if you didn't plan this in advance.The WSJ posted this one...yesterday.

 

Gee whiz, what a shocker.

 

Good find, Balta.

[iamshack]

Wow, somebody has watched "Secret of my Success" too many times (although Helen Slater may have been worth it)

 

?

[The Gooch]

In my opinion, the biggest problem is what that you need to have a college degree to do work that barely requires a high school degree. I was working at one of those online colleges (don't even get me started) as an admissions advisor for awhile. It is basically being a glorified telemarketer, with one of the requirements being a college degree. I also don't understand some of these online schools can be accredited by the same body as state schools. The idea that you have to have a college degree to advance in a job, or even attain one is making thirty and forty somethings throw $20-60 thousand dollars on a degree that (in my opinion) they are not getting that much from.

 

What needs to happen is that either some of these entry level jobs need to become more easily obtainable, or a college education need to become more beneficial. They make students take so many general education requirements that are not necessary, but very costly (for those who don't know general education requirement are subjects such as english, history, art, science, etc. They take up 2 years worth of credits, are often light extensions of what they teach you in high school, usually have nothing to do with what you are majoring in, and most of them seem very unnecessary). I have found that the majors where they repeatedly beat information into your head and build on it with each class are the most beneficial. Majors like accounting and construction management seem to prepare students well to work in a specific industry and be successful at it. If you major in something more general like marketing, business administration, psychology, sociology, history, etc. you will probably be working at something that you did not need your degree for. Sales and retail management trainees are two very common fields that many different majors end up in. I was a Psychology major and I am preparing to go to graduate school in the fall for Industrial Organizational Psychology. I can't help but think that if instead of taking so many freakin' general education requirements, I could have taken more specific classes that focus on information that is specific to what I want to get into, then maybe I wouldn't have to shell out some much more cash for a couple years of more school. A bachelor's degree is the new high school degree, and a master's degree is the new bachelor's degree. If colleges did a better job of preparing students to enter into specific careers where they would have a general level of expertise, entry level jobs could open up to individuals without a college degree, and more of those with a degree could enter into the field they specifically studied. Then if you want to enter a specific field that requires some sort of proficiency or expertise a bachelors degree will give it to you. If you don't, then maybe you wouldn't need a degree to work at Enterprise Rent-A-Car, or Sherwin Williams anymore.

[iamshack]

I agree with a lot of this is general.

 

Many jobs that require a college degree do not require any particular skills learned in college, but rather, some degree of common sense. Unfortunately, employers often use a college degree as a minimum threshold for common sense, which couldn't be more inaccurate.

[bmags]

I agree with a lot of this is general.

 

Many jobs that require a college degree do not require any particular skills learned in college, but rather, some degree of common sense. Unfortunately, employers often use a college degree as a minimum threshold for common sense, which couldn't be more inaccurate.

 

Very true. GPA doesn't mean much more than, hey this guy/girl is probably a good worker. And that's it.

 

The Bachelors degree really needs to be reformulated. These gen-eds really do need to be toned down.

[Texsox]

I agree with a lot of this is general.

 

Many jobs that require a college degree do not require any particular skills learned in college, but rather, some degree of common sense. Unfortunately, employers often use a college degree as a minimum threshold for common sense, which couldn't be more inaccurate.

 

Or as an indicator that the employee will invest in themselves, have the ability and drive to go beyond the minimum. Have the credentials to get accepted and complete higher education. When you have dozens or hundreds of resumes to sort through, it makes for a easy first step.

 

Balta, the careers that usually pay well without a college degree would be in manufacturing, trades, sales (that's changing quickly). Law enforcement is starting to require college.

 

There will be more opportunities and choices for people with degrees. The happiest people I know are the ones with the most choices. If someone wants to try to build a career with a four year head start instead of a degree, it's their choice. You could also drop out at 16 and take the GED.

[iamshack]

Or as an indicator that the employee will invest in themselves, have the ability and drive to go beyond the minimum. Have the credentials to get accepted and complete higher education. When you have dozens or hundreds of resumes to sort through, it makes for a easy first step.

 

Balta, the careers that usually pay well without a college degree would be in manufacturing, trades, sales (that's changing quickly). Law enforcement is starting to require college.

 

There will be more opportunities and choices for people with degrees. The happiest people I know are the ones with the most choices. If someone wants to try to build a career with a four year head start instead of a degree, it's their choice. You could also drop out at 16 and take the GED.

I simply don't know how you can say this with any certainty. This is what we have been told for years, but it simply does not seem to be bearing itself out in practice. Many employers would rather take a less-educated empoyee on at the most entry level position and pay him less.

 

Try having an advanced degree and applying for jobs only requiring BAs and listening to them tell you how overqualified you are, even when you are willing to negotiate salary within their given range.

[Texsox]

I simply don't know how you can say this with any certainty. This is what we have been told for years, but it simply does not seem to be bearing itself out in practice. Many employers would rather take a less-educated empoyee on at the most entry level position and pay him less.

 

Try having an advanced degree and applying for jobs only requiring BAs and listening to them tell you how overqualified you are, even when you are willing to negotiate salary within their given range.

 

 

I will give my #1 reason why it is and will be better to have a college degree. You will have more choices in careers to pursue. Without a degree, any degree, there will be less. I have never heard of a job that college grads were excluded, I have seen where a college degree was required to be included.

 

If you are only measuring your career in dollars and cents, then perhaps, in some cases, you would be correct.