Forgive Student Loan Debt to Stimulate the Economy

[iamshack]

I will give my #1 reason why it is and will be better to have a college degree. You will have more choices in careers to pursue. Without a degree, any degree, there will be less. I have never heard of a job that college grads were excluded, I have seen where a college degree was required to be included.

 

If you are only measuring your career in dollars and cents, then perhaps, in some cases, you would be correct.

I agree with you that ultimately you will have more opportunities by having a degree.

 

We're discussing whether our higher educational system is broken or not; whether it currently makes much sense to go into significant debt to obtain a degree; whether it is even a given that college grads fare better in the job market; etc.

[StrangeSox]

The funny thing is, I got the number from the federal government's website. How's that for irony. You used the WSJ and I trusted the feds.

 

Also, you heard Balta take the message from a college professor. Drop out, it isn't worth it.

 

The article points out the problem with the fed's number from 2003 based on 1999 data.

[ptatc]

In my opinion, the biggest problem is what that you need to have a college degree to do work that barely requires a high school degree. I was working at one of those online colleges (don't even get me started) as an admissions advisor for awhile. It is basically being a glorified telemarketer, with one of the requirements being a college degree. I also don't understand some of these online schools can be accredited by the same body as state schools. The idea that you have to have a college degree to advance in a job, or even attain one is making thirty and forty somethings throw $20-60 thousand dollars on a degree that (in my opinion) they are not getting that much from.

 

What needs to happen is that either some of these entry level jobs need to become more easily obtainable, or a college education need to become more beneficial. They make students take so many general education requirements that are not necessary, but very costly (for those who don't know general education requirement are subjects such as english, history, art, science, etc. They take up 2 years worth of credits, are often light extensions of what they teach you in high school, usually have nothing to do with what you are majoring in, and most of them seem very unnecessary). I have found that the majors where they repeatedly beat information into your head and build on it with each class are the most beneficial. Majors like accounting and construction management seem to prepare students well to work in a specific industry and be successful at it. If you major in something more general like marketing, business administration, psychology, sociology, history, etc. you will probably be working at something that you did not need your degree for. Sales and retail management trainees are two very common fields that many different majors end up in. I was a Psychology major and I am preparing to go to graduate school in the fall for Industrial Organizational Psychology. I can't help but think that if instead of taking so many freakin' general education requirements, I could have taken more specific classes that focus on information that is specific to what I want to get into, then maybe I wouldn't have to shell out some much more cash for a couple years of more school. A bachelor's degree is the new high school degree, and a master's degree is the new bachelor's degree. If colleges did a better job of preparing students to enter into specific careers where they would have a general level of expertise, entry level jobs could open up to individuals without a college degree, and more of those with a degree could enter into the field they specifically studied. Then if you want to enter a specific field that requires some sort of proficiency or expertise a bachelors degree will give it to you. If you don't, then maybe you wouldn't need a degree to work at Enterprise Rent-A-Car, or Sherwin Williams anymore.

 

There is still something to be said for having a well rounded individual. For example, what do people think of athletes who aren't well spoken? They think they are idiots even if they aren't. Many of them also require writing for the same purpose, if you don't elevate your writing skills, especially in this day and age of shortcut texting habits, you will have difficulty with many jobs. While they aren't "necessary" for a specific job, many students don't know what they want to do yet and these can help make that decision. It is never a bad thing to have a more well rounded, educated society.

 

[ptatc]

?

 

Sorry, showing my age. It's an 80's movie with Michael J. Fox. The entire story line is a guy who can't get a job because he is a college grad with no "real world" experience. "If he would have gone straight from high school into their training program he would have been ready 2 years ago."

[Balta1701]

Balta, the careers that usually pay well without a college degree would be in manufacturing, trades, sales (that's changing quickly). Law enforcement is starting to require college.

That's not what I asked Tex. I asked what careers are still out there where you can get a good job WITH a college degree.

[The Beast]

There's nothing wrong with the well-rounded individual, but some of those general education requirements are ridiculous. For some general education classes, they are a waste of time. Why should I be writing English papers when I could test out of that class and work on the deficiency that I have in math? Why do I bother going to a 4-year university to start out with when I could get the same education at a community college and work to learn some responsibility? Not to mention, a lot of people don't even take those classes seriously and don't get anything out of say, a speech class. I don't believe the general education requirements last for 2 years as some schools try to force you into a major after 1 year of college. At least that is how it was in my initial experience.

 

Just because you are good at something doesn't mean you're interested in it. I'm good at writing but it doesn't mean I want to be a journalist or English professor. For all I know I'll be back in school after my BA in Business to be an educator. You just never know.

Edited February 4, 2010 by The Beast

[StrangeSox]

You can always take your gen eds at community college over the summers or even online during a regular semester. I know plenty of people who went to U of I and also took classes at Parkland (the local CC).

[Texsox]

That's not what I asked Tex. I asked what careers are still out there where you can get a good job WITH a college degree.

 

All of them. Name one where a college degree excludes you? I can't think of a scenario where the people with the college degree will be lined up behind someone without one.

[The Gooch]

There is still something to be said for having a well rounded individual. For example, what do people think of athletes who aren't well spoken? They think they are idiots even if they aren't. Many of them also require writing for the same purpose, if you don't elevate your writing skills, especially in this day and age of shortcut texting habits, you will have difficulty with many jobs. While they aren't "necessary" for a specific job, many students don't know what they want to do yet and these can help make that decision. It is never a bad thing to have a more well rounded, educated society.

 

I agree that a few general education courses be required. An english course, a speech course, and a math course. If a specific major requires more then a student can take more. There is no reason every student has to take chemistry, biology, geology, art history, , etc. Especially when we have taken a lot of these classes in high school. There is nothing wrong with a semesters worth of general education requirements, but two years worth is just plain ridiculous imo.

[StrangeSox]

All of them. Name one where a college degree excludes you? I can't think of a scenario where the people with the college degree will be lined up behind someone without one.

 

If it means the HS degree will do the same work for less money...

[bmags]

I agree that a few general education courses be required. An english course, a speech course, and a math course. If a specific major requires more then a student can take more. There is no reason every student has to take chemistry, biology, geology, art history, , etc. Especially when we have taken a lot of these classes in high school. There is nothing wrong with a semesters worth of general education requirements, but two years worth is just plain ridiculous imo.

 

Exactly, one thing that pissed me off to no end was I had to take 3 extra hours of ANYTHING (meaning 1000 level courses) because I had taken too many journalism classes. I was a journalism major. It was the stupidest s*** I've ever seen.

[The Gooch]

Exactly, one thing that pissed me off to no end was I had to take 3 extra hours of ANYTHING (meaning 1000 level courses) because I had taken too many journalism classes. I was a journalism major. It was the stupidest s*** I've ever seen.

 

What really bothered me was classes such as chemisty, geology, and speech did some major damage to my gpa. I had to fight an uphill battle after freshman year. I don't know why I should suffer because I'm not good at chmistry when I want nothing to do with it when I'm out of school

[NorthSideSox72]

Exactly, one thing that pissed me off to no end was I had to take 3 extra hours of ANYTHING (meaning 1000 level courses) because I had taken too many journalism classes. I was a journalism major. It was the stupidest s*** I've ever seen.

When you get out into the full time working world, you will find why this is done. A lot of people end up going into a job that is not exactly what they thought they'd do while an undergrad. Its just what ends up happening. And a field like journalism, where the job market is so bad, that will be amplified. So, its important to get some diverse background while in school. In my view, it makes a ton of sense. If people are too specialized, they play themselves out of too many jobs, and it makes people less able to do something different.

 

[bmags]

When you get out into the full time working world, you will find why this is done. A lot of people end up going into a job that is not exactly what they thought they'd do while an undergrad. Its just what ends up happening. And a field like journalism, where the job market is so bad, that will be amplified. So, its important to get some diverse background while in school. In my view, it makes a ton of sense. If people are too specialized, they play themselves out of too many jobs, and it makes people less able to do something different.

Being a journalism major i was already incredibly well rounded. No need to say the difference between me and a college grad was psych 1110 child behavior

[The Beast]

When you get out into the full time working world, you will find why this is done. A lot of people end up going into a job that is not exactly what they thought they'd do while an undergrad. Its just what ends up happening. And a field like journalism, where the job market is so bad, that will be amplified. So, its important to get some diverse background while in school. In my view, it makes a ton of sense. If people are too specialized, they play themselves out of too many jobs, and it makes people less able to do something different.

 

Being a journalism major i was already incredibly well rounded. No need to say the difference between me and a college grad was psych 1110 child behavior

As someone who once was curious about the field of journalism, and believe in what NorthSideSox72 has said, what are you intending to do with your journalism degree? I found out that I hated reporting, designing, taking pictures, deadline pressure among other things. This is why I'm completing a degree in another field.

[Texsox]

If it means the HS degree will do the same work for less money...

 

If they did get the HS grad to work for less, that means they offered it to a college grad first who turned it down. I'd still rather have the offer and turn it down, then not get an offer.

 

And I believe that proves 2K5's point, you make more with the college degree.

[Texsox]

Exactly, one thing that pissed me off to no end was I had to take 3 extra hours of ANYTHING (meaning 1000 level courses) because I had taken too many journalism classes. I was a journalism major. It was the stupidest s*** I've ever seen.

 

 

Seems like an editor would like you to know something about the story you are covering. So if, for example, the story was on a bio science, having a reporter who took a biology class would be kind of useful.

[iamshack]

If they did get the HS grad to work for less, that means they offered it to a college grad first who turned it down. I'd still rather have the offer and turn it down, then not get an offer.

 

And I believe that proves 2K5's point, you make more with the college degree.

That is simply not true.

 

Sometimes they do not want to allocate the money in their budget for a college graduate, so they simply do not respond to college graduates who apply.

 

I cannot tell you how many positions I applied for after graduating with a law degree, only to be told, "you are vastly over-qualified, sorry."

 

They are afraid to offer the job to you even if you accept a lower salary to start because these things usually have a habit of coming back up again when it is time for raises or promotions.

[Texsox]

That is simply not true.

 

Sometimes they do not want to allocate the money in their budget for a college graduate, so they simply do not respond to college graduates who apply.

 

I cannot tell you how many positions I applied for after graduating with a law degree, only to be told, "you are vastly over-qualified, sorry."

 

They are afraid to offer the job to you even if you accept a lower salary to start because these things usually have a habit of coming back up again when it is time for raises or promotions.

 

Why would someone with just a high school diploma work for less money than someone with a college degree?

 

And what position was it that they refused to look at college grads?

[StrangeSox]

If they did get the HS grad to work for less, that means they offered it to a college grad first who turned it down. I'd still rather have the offer and turn it down, then not get an offer.

 

And I believe that proves 2K5's point, you make more with the college degree.

 

No, I didn't state my point clearly.

 

The college grad has a ton of debt and can't afford to take that job opening for $10. The HS grad, who has a significantly smaller debt load, can. Economics forces the debt-laden college grads to look for higher paying jobs or be unable to pay their bills.

 

The idea that college grads typically earn more isn't a bad one, but it isn't a hard-and-fast rule, either. It is heavily dependent on the degree you choose. Finance or software/ computer engineering? Yeah, you can make a good buck. Journalism? History? English? You could be stuck with a sales rep or sales assistant job making less than $30k very easily. Go into the trades and you can be making good money for years while your friends are racking up debt.

 

I'm by no means downplaying the importance of education or even education for knowledge's sake. However, I think its unfortunate that so many kids have it drilled into them that "no college=failure".

[StrangeSox]

Why would someone with just a high school diploma work for less money than someone with a college degree?

 

And what position was it that they refused to look at college grads?

 

You've never heard of anyone being turned away because they were over-qualified?

 

A seriously over-qualified candidate will want more money and more opportunity down the road, making them more likely to either be unhappy with their position or leave at the first opportunity.

[NorthSideSox72]

As someone who once was curious about the field of journalism, and believe in what NorthSideSox72 has said, what are you intending to do with your journalism degree? I found out that I hated reporting, designing, taking pictures, deadline pressure among other things. This is why I'm completing a degree in another field.

OK, hold the phone. I wasn't saying bmags wouldn't like it - that wasn't my point.

 

And, I have to ask... if you hated all those things, why did you choose Journalism at all?

 

[StrangeSox]

Also, you don't necessarily have to be in reporting or newspapers to to journalism.

 

And what field do you plan on getting into that doesn't have deadline pressures? I've had deadline pressures non-stop since October.

[lostfan]

I have deadline pressure right now... procrastinated a paper I have to write at work until tomorrow. lol.

[The Beast]

OK, hold the phone. I wasn't saying bmags wouldn't like it - that wasn't my point.

 

And, I have to ask... if you hated all those things, why did you choose Journalism at all?

Again, coming out of high school I really didn't know what to do. In high school I worked on the school paper and it was okay, so I figured I'd follow my initial "dream job" and try to cover the White Sox and Bears like Gonzales and Haugh do. After all, "they say" do what you love. Little did I know how competitive the industry was and what people have to do to be successful. Our newspaper was monthly and when I reached college I was like a deer in headlights when I figured out the daily pressures of j-school. I took some assignments and wrote about the swim team. In high school I was a reporter and then I worked as an editor so I didn't really do all of the stuff reporters do my senior year of HS. I also was fascinated at broadcasting at one point but wasn't really a good source of talent. When I looked at Eastern I felt like it was the best department for me along with education, so I tried them all out. That's when I found out what the newspaper industry is really like and when I returned home my freshman year, I had no clue of what I was going to study for my freshman year. Journalism is an interesting topic, but I'm probably more suited for PR.

 

Also, you don't necessarily have to be in reporting or newspapers to to journalism.

 

And what field do you plan on getting into that doesn't have deadline pressures? I've had deadline pressures non-stop since October.

Any field. The other thing that kind of made me upset with journalism is that I didn't really meet people and couldn't go do what everyone else was doing and just hanging out after classes. I'm a 9-5 guy, not an 8-??? guy. If anything, I should have taken a lot more business and political science courses earlier on. I'll be on deadline in a job, but not if it's a job that is low paying with an industry in shambles where there aren't any guarantees in terms of real good jobs (such as my "dream job"). I don't mind putting work in and getting things done, I just didn't want to write for a living.

 

Truth be told, I'd rather help people than work in journalism.

Edited February 5, 2010 by The Beast