Forgive Student Loan Debt to Stimulate the Economy

[Chisoxfn]

I'm going to get back to this thread later on this evening when I have more time.

 

But one point I would like to make for you to chew on now, is that if you have any experience in the lower level job market (positions for recent college grads or employees in the beginning stages of their career), you know that employers almost would rather you not be highly trained in their field. Many corporations have individualized training programs and would rather train you in their method and manner than have to waste the time "untraining" you and then re-training you.

 

This is in large part why the value of a college degree has decreased and willingness to start at the bottom rung of the latter with a desire and willingness to move up has gained more of a foothold than in previous job markets.

I don't buy the above one bit. The college degree just shows that you have a willingness to learn at a high level and are responsible (yes it does more than that, but at the basic level it does that). It doesn't teach me anything about what I'm going to do in the real world, it might teach me the regulations and laws that apply and basic theories to an approach, but that is about it.

 

A company hires you with your college background because it shows you are smart enough to pick up what they train you. And really only some companies will train you that well (ie, the big time companies with reputations for being exceptional places to start your career). So I don't buy this load of mularkey that for a corporate position of some sort they now want you to have a high school degree as opposed to a college degree.

 

I could see if you are talking about working at Wendys that they wouldn't give a s***, but otherwise, they'll take the college degree.

 

[Chisoxfn]

I simply don't know how you can say this with any certainty. This is what we have been told for years, but it simply does not seem to be bearing itself out in practice. Many employers would rather take a less-educated empoyee on at the most entry level position and pay him less.

 

Try having an advanced degree and applying for jobs only requiring BAs and listening to them tell you how overqualified you are, even when you are willing to negotiate salary within their given range.

Well I could have never gotten my job without a degree and I make pretty damn good money for a 26 year old.

[Chisoxfn]

That's not what I asked Tex. I asked what careers are still out there where you can get a good job WITH a college degree.

Accounting, Finance. Clearly, you are benefited in life by getting degrees which allow you to take valuable certifications. If you do Finance, you can become a CFA. If you do accounting, you can become a CPA.

 

Those give you a hard skill-set that puts you above a ton of other candidates for positions and that is valuable. On the IT side there are plenty of options as well.

[iamshack]

I don't buy the above one bit. The college degree just shows that you have a willingness to learn at a high level and are responsible (yes it does more than that, but at the basic level it does that). It doesn't teach me anything about what I'm going to do in the real world, it might teach me the regulations and laws that apply and basic theories to an approach, but that is about it.

 

A company hires you with your college background because it shows you are smart enough to pick up what they train you. And really only some companies will train you that well (ie, the big time companies with reputations for being exceptional places to start your career). So I don't buy this load of mularkey that for a corporate position of some sort they now want you to have a high school degree as opposed to a college degree.

 

I could see if you are talking about working at Wendys that they wouldn't give a s***, but otherwise, they'll take the college degree.

Jason, I don't mean to bite the hand that feeds me here, but you have a habit of jumping into these threads days after they were originally debated, pulling something out of the middle of it, taking it out of context, and responding to it individually instead of the following the flow of the debate.

 

I think if you continue reading you'll see more of where I was going with that point.

 

[Chisoxfn]

There's nothing wrong with the well-rounded individual, but some of those general education requirements are ridiculous. For some general education classes, they are a waste of time. Why should I be writing English papers when I could test out of that class and work on the deficiency that I have in math? Why do I bother going to a 4-year university to start out with when I could get the same education at a community college and work to learn some responsibility? Not to mention, a lot of people don't even take those classes seriously and don't get anything out of say, a speech class. I don't believe the general education requirements last for 2 years as some schools try to force you into a major after 1 year of college. At least that is how it was in my initial experience.

 

Just because you are good at something doesn't mean you're interested in it. I'm good at writing but it doesn't mean I want to be a journalist or English professor. For all I know I'll be back in school after my BA in Business to be an educator. You just never know.

THE CC route is a great route and can work fantasticaly, but I won't even pretend to think that you get the same education at a CC as you do at some 4 year institutions. I did all of my classes at my 4 year school and that means I took all of my pre-req business courses (like Accounting 101, the basic management, marketing, bus law classes, etc) at a 4 year institution. I had friends who joined me in school after going the CC route who took the stuff at the CC (and these are smart people, not just some slacker) and the difference was night and day between what I learned and they learned and it gave me a head start on them and allowed me to become more technically strong in my field, thus giving me better grades and helping me get a better job out of college.

 

The CC route is a great way for someone to go if you don't have the money, aren't quite sure what you want to do yet, or just dicked around too much in college, but there is a lot to benefit by going the true 4 year way as well and the undergrad classes are important because they help you learn to be more balanced.

[iamshack]

Well I could have never gotten my job without a degree and I make pretty damn good money for a 26 year old.

 

No one is claiming that people who have college degrees are somehow doomed for failure. The debate is about whether or not it is still such an advantage to get a degree considering all of the factors mentioned throughout this thread.

 

Also keep in mind that you happen to be employed in a very specialized field. Just as I could never become a practicing attorney without my law degree, that does not diminish the point we are making about the entire job market and educational system.

Edited February 5, 2010 by iamshack

[Chisoxfn]

If it means the HS degree will do the same work for less money...

But if the pay was the same, more often than not they'd take the college grad. There are exceptions though because you might be able to get the high school grad to stay long-term where as the college grad has dreams and aspirations and won't stick around some s***ty 10 buck an hour job.

[Chisoxfn]

That is simply not true.

 

Sometimes they do not want to allocate the money in their budget for a college graduate, so they simply do not respond to college graduates who apply.

 

I cannot tell you how many positions I applied for after graduating with a law degree, only to be told, "you are vastly over-qualified, sorry."

 

They are afraid to offer the job to you even if you accept a lower salary to start because these things usually have a habit of coming back up again when it is time for raises or promotions.

If you have a law degree and are applying for an entry level marketing position, they are going to feel more comfortable offering the marketing major out of college as opposed to you. Yes, you have the better degree and a law degree, but they are likely to stay in there field and be doing something that fits there long-term goal so the stability is there.

 

A freaking professional company isn't going to hire a high schooler over a college kid for an entry level finance/marketing/accounting position.

[Chisoxfn]

No, I didn't state my point clearly.

 

The college grad has a ton of debt and can't afford to take that job opening for $10. The HS grad, who has a significantly smaller debt load, can. Economics forces the debt-laden college grads to look for higher paying jobs or be unable to pay their bills.

 

The idea that college grads typically earn more isn't a bad one, but it isn't a hard-and-fast rule, either. It is heavily dependent on the degree you choose. Finance or software/ computer engineering? Yeah, you can make a good buck. Journalism? History? English? You could be stuck with a sales rep or sales assistant job making less than $30k very easily. Go into the trades and you can be making good money for years while your friends are racking up debt.

 

I'm by no means downplaying the importance of education or even education for knowledge's sake. However, I think its unfortunate that so many kids have it drilled into them that "no college=failure".

Whoa...if you go into the trades, you probably will make as much if not more than a college grad. But you will put in the time and will need to get apprenticed (either by your dad or someone else). And it helps to have a business background because typically if you are in the trades you ultimately become an entrepeneur if you are going to be sucessful (become a contractor, have your own repair business, etc).

 

But if you walk out of high school and say f*** college, I'm going to go work my way up at Walgreens good freaking luck to you. An average college grad that gets a semi attractive degree with a decent degree will blow you out of the water quickly.

 

Hell, the 1st job they get might be paying them 50K and when you compare that to the 10 bucks an hour you are making well quite frankly it blows. Oh and they might have even gotten an internship in college that paid them 15-25 bucks an hour to work too.

[Chisoxfn]

You're mis-stating the position.

 

The premise is that some people can be better off without a college degree. For many degrees, there is not enough additional compensation to make up for the cost of the degree.

 

Those estimates of "One million more!" include guys like the founders of Google who are billionaires. It isn't necessarily a realistic expectation.

To me learning a trade is the equivalent of getting a degree. And I think a huge flaw with our school system is we look down on the trades and shouldn't because you can be highly successful and they are very lucrative professions if you are provided with the right opportunities and training.

[iamshack]

If you have a law degree and are applying for an entry level marketing position, they are going to feel more comfortable offering the marketing major out of college as opposed to you. Yes, you have the better degree and a law degree, but they are likely to stay in there field and be doing something that fits there long-term goal so the stability is there.

 

A freaking professional company isn't going to hire a high schooler over a college kid for an entry level finance/marketing/accounting position.

Again, you are completely taking the point out of context.

 

It doesn't have to be some untrained nose-picking "high schooler."

 

How about someone who's worked their way up from the mail room or from some very insignificant position? I don't know how you could be missing this, but many companies have employees that did not finish college who have started out at some lower rung and through experience and a good work ethic, have taken a traditional entry level position usually offered to a college grad. And they do this because that employee is already accustomed to working for the company, has adapted to the company's mission and vision, has experience, is willing to take a lower salary, will likely not leave at the first chance of a position with another company, etc.

 

If you aren't aware of the ever-growing presence of employees like this in many workplaces across many industries, than you aren't looking very closely.

[Chisoxfn]

I agree with all that. And as I mentioned earlier, if the only thing you are looking for in a job is money, than perhaps working is a better way. But if you have a passion for History or English, there are careers that you can get that are more rewarding for that person than trades.

 

I would argue that if you are going into the trades, an apprentice program would be valuable. But if you decide to become an auto mechanic because you can make $45,000 a year but you love English. You just might be happier in the long run working at a book publisher for $30,000 a year.

Lets be honest, 30K a year ain't going to provide most people with the necessary life-style to raise a family. Money, whether people like to admit it or not, has to be a part of your thought process while you are in school. Sure, you like english or jazz, take classes in that, but also double in something else so that 10 years down the line when you want a family and would like to go on a vacation every now and than you can actually afford to do those things.

[Chisoxfn]

In just about any field, if you want to get ahead, you won't be a "9-5" guy.

 

There's nothing wrong with not wanting to write for a living, but don't let the long hours you've seen there be the main obstacle.

Dead on. If you just do the status quo, you'll never move up. You need to excel at what you do (if you aspire to move up). Some people don't want the stresses of higher level positions though.

[Chisoxfn]

That's kind of the reason why I want to shadow certain people to see what they do for a living. Business as a major is generic so it will allow me to check out a variety of industries. The goal is to get a degree and shadow certain jobs over my breaks. You don't have to have a PR degree to work in PR, though you do need a teacher's cert and a master's degree for guidance counseling. Again, we will see what happens. Right now I just want to get my degree and see what comes my way. For all I know I'll end up being involved in a service organization. I'm still trying to figure out what really is my "life's work," though.

Very rarely is something going to hit you over the head and be your calling. You find what you kind of enjoy and what ultimately gives you the benefits to do what you want. So don't get too caught up finding this thing that you absolutely love. If you like it, perfect.

 

I like what I do, but more importantly, It allows me to do other things I really enjoy and I love business and how my career allows me to be able to travel a bit as well as provides me with the salary to do other things I enjoy doing (travel to see sports games, etc).

[Chisoxfn]

No one is claiming that people who have college degrees are somehow doomed for failure. The debate is about whether or not it is still such an advantage to get a degree considering all of the factors mentioned throughout this thread.

 

Also keep in mind that you happen to be employed in a very specialized field. Just as I could never become a practicing attorney without my law degree, that does not diminish the point we are making about the entire job market and educational system.

I don't think you can just make a generic comment. I think ultimately you need to look at the pro's/cons to what you do and measure the difference. And that depends on the degree you are getting and the job you are going into.

 

For example, you could go work at UPS and I'd say well done cause that is a really good place for someone to work without a college degree and no interest in entering the trade. The benefits are great, you make decent money as a driver, and ultimately have some room to grow. If I compared that to the long-term earning power of someone with some cup-cake degree (well not cup-cake in the sense that it is easy, but cup-cake in the sense that there aren't many careers you can go to which utilize that skill-set and pay) and I'd say you'd be way better off going one way.

[Chisoxfn]

Again, you are completely taking the point out of context.

 

It doesn't have to be some untrained nose-picking "high schooler."

 

How about someone who's worked their way up from the mail room or from some very insignificant position? I don't know how you could be missing this, but many companies have employees that did not finish college who have started out at some lower rung and through experience and a good work ethic, have taken a traditional entry level position usually offered to a college grad. And they do this because that employee is already accustomed to working for the company, has adapted to the company's mission and vision, has experience, is willing to take a lower salary, will likely not leave at the first chance of a position with another company, etc.

 

If you aren't aware of the ever-growing presence of employees like this in many workplaces across many industries, than you aren't looking very closely.

I think it is very rare for someone to work up from the mail-room to a high paying position or even an average paying position. If they do, they tend to be someone who is working in an industry where you literally have to work your way up (Hollywood or something). Or, they are working in the mail-room to help pay the bills while they go to school and finish there degree and thus have a foot in the door to move up once they finish there schooling.

 

And I might be a bit behind, but its what I do. I catch back up through a thread and post and I see a few stuff that I don't agree with and will point it out. I obviously am biased based upon my beliefs and experiences as someone else would be biased based upon theirs.

[StrangeSox]

Ok. But which career makes the most financial success is a terrible yardstick for most people.

 

Now you're miss-stating the argument.

 

Please try to respond to what other people are actually saying.

[StrangeSox]

To me learning a trade is the equivalent of getting a degree. And I think a huge flaw with our school system is we look down on the trades and shouldn't because you can be highly successful and they are very lucrative professions if you are provided with the right opportunities and training.

 

That misses the point of the idea that getting a college degree means you'll earn more.

[kapkomet]

That misses the point of the idea that getting a college degree means you'll earn more.

 

 

That's a true statement. I don't get why that's so difficult to comprehend or that it keeps getting shot down as something that's not.

 

There are VERY few exceptions to this.

[Chisoxfn]

That misses the point of the idea that getting a college degree means you'll earn more.

No, because a trade is a degree. It isn't anything less than that. I got a degree in accounting/finance so I could go into that. In the trade world, you usually are an apprentice for a few years, hone your craft, and get good and at that point hopefully become a contractor or master craftsmen, etc. That time you are learning is when you are essentially earning your degree in your skill so that you can be on your own one day.

 

Just like I went to school to learn accounting so I could be on my own one day.

 

A degree from here or learning a trade is no different. Remember, trades involve getting certifications too.

[The Gooch]

No, because a trade is a degree. It isn't anything less than that. I got a degree in accounting/finance so I could go into that. In the trade world, you usually are an apprentice for a few years, hone your craft, and get good and at that point hopefully become a contractor or master craftsmen, etc. That time you are learning is when you are essentially earning your degree in your skill so that you can be on your own one day.

 

Just like I went to school to learn accounting so I could be on my own one day.

 

A degree from here or learning a trade is no different. Remember, trades involve getting certifications too.

 

But they are not included in the estimates for earnings of college graduates

[Chisoxfn]

But they are not included in the estimates for earnings of college graduates

I don't care, never did I say they were. I don't think going to a trade should be included as someone who just finished high school and did nothing else. There is a big difference than graduating from high school and than working at Walmart as a cashier than there is graduating high school working with someone in the field during high school and continuing that on during the next few years and becoming a very skilled tradesmen.

 

In America we should be pushing people two ways...into an established trade program or into college.

[bmags]

The point isn't about what classes you take, it's your ability to adapt and learn something that's not the subject that you're in. The point also is to be able to think critically about a subject you might not be an expert in.

 

bmags, I'll try to use an example. What guides your philosphy on global warming? Should you be guided on some scientific theories you might have learned in some science class, or should you be guided by some journalist who doesn't know a damn thing about it? I'm not mocking you here, I'm trying to ask a question that might make you see why sometimes a BIO1000 or a SCI1000 or whatever might become relevant.

 

A journalist is probably covering the thousands of scientists over decades who have published their work in peer reviewed journals over the subject, whether or not the journalist had bio1000 at some point in his life, he probably learned how to think critically in college. You don't need knowledge in every area to understand flaws. I know how to read reports. I know how to read statistics. It doesn't matter the topic.

[nitetrain8601]

I don't care, never did I say they were. I don't think going to a trade should be included as someone who just finished high school and did nothing else. There is a big difference than graduating from high school and than working at Walmart as a cashier than there is graduating high school working with someone in the field during high school and continuing that on during the next few years and becoming a very skilled tradesmen.

 

In America we should be pushing people two ways...into an established trade program or into college.

 

For the sake of the argument this thread was based on and the new facts coming out(which were on Fox News today), college and trade are vastly different.

 

Coming up, it is implied, College = Most Money by far

 

It is found that it is not.

 

I also don't consider trade and college the same. In college, you might get an internship or two which will last a year. In a trade, you are getting paid to learn and actually apply your learnings in the field as you are learning it. The only similarity between trade and college is that you're learning something. You can say the same about a high school student who starts working full-time at 18. They are always learning something at their job as well.

[kapkomet]

A journalist is probably covering the thousands of scientists over decades who have published their work in peer reviewed journals over the subject, whether or not the journalist had bio1000 at some point in his life, he probably learned how to think critically in college. You don't need knowledge in every area to understand flaws. I know how to read reports. I know how to read statistics. It doesn't matter the topic.

 

 

Ok, I buy that... but where or how did you learn it?