Tigers Sign Damon - 1 yr, 8 mil; NTC

[witesoxfan]

Not being overly harsh. It is what it is with Dayan. He didn't have a very good year with the bat or in the field. I'm not denying the fact that he is a legitimate prospect, or overlooking his age compared to the league or the acclimation factor. The hitting and power tools are there, but he isn't some magical 5 star prospect at this point in time. This coming season's performance will be much more telling.

 

I'm not hyping Mitchell to be a sure thing, as he is anything but. He has the tools, but he needs to put them all together first. The sample size is far too small to be make any assessment at this point. Just saying that all things being equal, if both players reach close to their ceiling, Mitchell is much more valuable.

 

I would absolutely agree with that, but I think a ton of that has to do with positional value too. Viciedo is going to end up at 1B, unless for some reason the Sox want to try him in LF or RF.

 

And not that I want to discount last year for Viciedo, just that I'm not looking too much as his statistics. The Sox pushed him too hard, and he really should have been in Winston-Salem. He did improve as the year went on, and that's a key.

[SI1020]

Viciedo has far to go before he can be considered a legitimate prospect. He did improve somewhat in the second half last year so I am not writing him off, but at the same time would recommend caution in evaluating him.

[DirtySox]

I would absolutely agree with that, but I think a ton of that has to do with positional value too. Viciedo is going to end up at 1B, unless for some reason the Sox want to try him in LF or RF.

 

And not that I want to discount last year for Viciedo, just that I'm not looking too much as his statistics. The Sox pushed him too hard, and he really should have been in Winston-Salem. He did improve as the year went on, and that's a key.

 

Agreed. I was rather surprised that Birmingham was his starting spot. The upward trend near the latter part of the season was encouraging, which made it even more disappointing that he got hurt in the AFL. I'm looking forward to seeing him in spring training to see how his conditioning is coming along since he supposedly has been training with Alexei most of the offseason.

[scenario]

Viciedo has far to go before he can be considered a legitimate prospect. He did improve somewhat in the second half last year so I am not writing him off, but at the same time would recommend caution in evaluating him.

 

So... a 20 year old player who projects as a power hitter... who just completed a full year in AA (and was the youngest player in the league)... has 'far to go' to be considered a legit prospect, eh?

 

Take away his first month (ever) in minor league ball... where he hit .221 with 20Ks and 2BBs... and his season looks fairly impressive actually.

Edited February 14, 2010 by scenario

[Dick Allen]

So... a 20 year old player who projects as a power hitter... who just completed a full year in AA (and was the youngest player in the league)... has 'far to go' to be considered a legit prospect, eh?

 

Take away his first month (ever) in minor league ball... where he hit .221 with 20Ks and 2BBs... and his season looks fairly impressive actually.

 

I don't know where anyone would think he's not a legit prospect. I could see where there may be question if he ever will amount to much. Obviously, there is no need to panic, but when he signed a lot of people assumed he would be in the White Sox everyday line-up in 2009. He obviously wasn't nearly as advanced as some assumed. He has ability. I think its all going to come down to how badly he wants to be a good player.

[Balta1701]

He obviously wasn't nearly as advanced as some assumed. He has ability. I think its all going to come down to how badly he wants to be a good player.

The issue we're having is...a lot of people are holding it against him that he wasn't immediately as advanced as some people had assumed, and ignoring what he actually is.

[Dick Allen]

The issue we're having is...a lot of people are holding it against him that he wasn't immediately as advanced as some people had assumed, and ignoring what he actually is.

But................part of what he is, or rather what he has been, is an unmotivated guy who tends to get by on ability alone. It may work for a while in Cuba, where the talent pool isn't as big, but it won't work here. It appears he's been working hard this offseason, so maybe he's grown up. There was a Cuba scouting guru who was really down on Viciedo due to his work ethic.

[scenario]

The issue we're having is...a lot of people are holding it against him that he wasn't immediately as advanced as some people had assumed, and ignoring what he actually is.

 

Exactly. Well said.

[Quin]

Viciedo has far to go before he can be considered a legitimate prospect. He did improve somewhat in the second half last year so I am not writing him off, but at the same time would recommend caution in evaluating him.

 

You mean legitimate MLB-Ready Prospect?

 

Having the ability to be a big bat in the MLB is what makes him a prospect. The Cubs wonder boy Starlin Castro didn't exactly light up AA. Strasburg had a 4.26 ERA in the AFL.

[Balta1701]

Strasburg had a 4.26 ERA in the AFL.

What happens if you take out the game where Morel and D2: the Mighty Danks ripped him up?

[Quin]

What happens if you take out the game where Morel and D2: the Mighty Danks ripped him up?

 

He becomes a legitimate prospect. Until then, I need a full season of good numbers.

[SI1020]

You mean legitimate MLB-Ready Prospect?

 

Having the ability to be a big bat in the MLB is what makes him a prospect. The Cubs wonder boy Starlin Castro didn't exactly light up AA. Strasburg had a 4.26 ERA in the AFL.

I look forward to seeing him again this year since I live in minor league land. Most prospects don't pan out and Viciedo is far from a can't miss kind of player. This didn't help matters any.

 

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As for Starlin Castro and the Cubs, they have always overhyped their prospects.

 

 

[joeynach]

The Cell though would likely be a downgrade from that launching pad that is RF in the Yankee Stadium. It might even be a downgrade from RF in the old Yankee Stadium.

 

Yeah but those doubles or even outs hit to the 385 foot gap at Yankee Stadium are now homers at USCF 372 foot gap. Its a balancing act.

[Balta1701]

Yeah but those doubles or even outs hit to the 385 foot gap at Yankee Stadium are now homers at USCF 372 foot gap. Its a balancing act.

Assuming they didn't get a wind-boost in the last place.

[Princess Dye]

As for Starlin Castro and the Cubs, they have always overhyped their prospects.

 

I remember a Pat Cline who was supposedly going to be Johnny Bench II

[caulfield12]

I remember a Pat Cline who was supposedly going to be Johnny Bench II

 

 

See Kevin Orie, Bobby Hill, Gary Scott, Jerome Walton, Dwight Smith, Shawon Dunston, Rich Hill, Angel Guzman, etc.

 

Some of those guys turned out to be "decent" major leaguers like Dunston, but nothing close to their hype.

 

 

 

As for Viciedo, we'd all rather see him at 3B because of his arm strength, but if his range/mobility are lacking, he has to be moved to 1B/DH or corner outfield. We've already invested the signing bonus into him, so let's just be patient and wait things out instead of jumping off the bandwagon. Alexei Ramirez was 26 and a "seasoned" veteran when he came to us, those comparisons of Viciedo making an instant impact (he got more money than Ramirez, who basically was a ROY type player) because they were both Cuban (not to mention our success with Contreras in 05/06) led us to see this signing with rose-colored glasses. Many of us were guilty of thinking he could make an impact as early as 2009, while others were being a lot more realistic. And the expectations for Ramirez when he came to us were very low, kind of a super-sub/utility guy in the mold of Ramon Santiago or Jose Oquendo with a "plus" arm but reed-like physique who would struggle to hold down the last spot on the roster or be in AAA.

 

By the way, Keith Law is an a s s.

 

I'm going to get tired of reading that we have the worst farm system in baseball when it's the opinion of ONE writer. I think that 18-24 is a lot more indicative of the actual level of talent in our system.

 

The only difference from this year to last year is Gordon Beckham being removed from the list. That doesn't account for falling 10 spots when we had a very solid draft last year.

 

Mitchell and Flowers, theoretically, have the ability to be All-Stars at their positions. Hudson is seen by many as one of the top 25-40 prospects in baseball, while some don't even rank him in the Top 100. Then you have Viciedo and Jordan Danks, both of those guys have God-given natural ability that can't be coached or taught. Neither of them may make a HUGE impact, but you can't begin to compare the state of our minor league system with 2-3 years ago when it was Josh Fields, Jerry Owens, Ehren Wasserman and Angel/Andy Gonzalez at the tops of the depth chart.

 

And Trayce Thompson has as much upside (and downside) as any prospect in the low minors today.

 

Sure there are doubts about Morel or Viciedo or CJ Retherford, but we're not close to being the worst farm system in baseball...no matter what Keith Law's personal vendetta against the Sox and/or KW happens to be.

Edited February 15, 2010 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

A general question I was thinking about Re: Damon.

 

Hypothetically let's assume the Sox sign him. That makes our bench/DH rotation Vizquel, Kotsay, Jones, Damon, and Castro, if they go with 12 pitchers. (12 pitchers, 8 everyday players, 5 man bench/DH rotation).

 

Are people comfortable with a 44 year old Omar Vizquel being our only backup IF for 3 separate positions? At least to my eyes, we're pretty much required to carry either CJ or Nix just so we have 2 backups to cover the IF. That limits us to an 11 man pitching staff, and I'm not sure the org would be thrilled about that.

 

Anyway, you don't avoid signing Damon because of that, but I'd say it ought to be something they think about beforehand.

[dmbjeff]

A general question I was thinking about Re: Damon.

 

Hypothetically let's assume the Sox sign him. That makes our bench/DH rotation Vizquel, Kotsay, Jones, Damon, and Castro, if they go with 12 pitchers. (12 pitchers, 8 everyday players, 5 man bench/DH rotation).

 

Are people comfortable with a 44 year old Omar Vizquel being our only backup IF for 3 separate positions? At least to my eyes, we're pretty much required to carry either CJ or Nix just so we have 2 backups to cover the IF. That limits us to an 11 man pitching staff, and I'm not sure the org would be thrilled about that.

 

Anyway, you don't avoid signing Damon because of that, but I'd say it ought to be something they think about beforehand.

 

I think at that point you trade Kotsay during spring training for a backup IF.

[Balta1701]

I think at that point you trade Kotsay during spring training for a backup IF.

Who's going to give up a backup IF and take on $1 million for Kotsay?

 

And a lesser but noteable point, who backs up 1b then? Konerko isn't as spry as he was in 2005 when our backup was Timo/Offday.

[SoxAce]

A general question I was thinking about Re: Damon.

 

Hypothetically let's assume the Sox sign him. That makes our bench/DH rotation Vizquel, Kotsay, Jones, Damon, and Castro, if they go with 12 pitchers. (12 pitchers, 8 everyday players, 5 man bench/DH rotation).

 

Are people comfortable with a 44 year old Omar Vizquel being our only backup IF for 3 separate positions? At least to my eyes, we're pretty much required to carry either CJ or Nix just so we have 2 backups to cover the IF. That limits us to an 11 man pitching staff, and I'm not sure the org would be thrilled about that.

 

Anyway, you don't avoid signing Damon because of that, but I'd say it ought to be something they think about beforehand.

 

I would think they would have Vizquel manning 3B and SS and Nix to handle 2B (though I know a bench player only playing one position isn't ideal, but that's the only one he's good at defensively though I'm sure Ozzie will have him play some SS [maybe corner OF] and Vizquel some 2B) and you have Kotsay play 1B and the OF (preferably corners) and Andruw (if he makes the team) to play all the OF spots and of course Castro is the backup. Though Ozzie likes carrying 12 pitchers even though the rotation is really good, so I would say Andruw or Nix could be gone in ST IF we sign Damon. I don't think they have a problem with Vizquel (dude still looks like he hasn't aged one bit) backing up 3 IF positions especially considering he won't be playing every week and the whole rotate DH thing to give a guy (or two just for rest) a day off from the field.

 

This also means KW could make a move trading Nix before the season starts to get a more versatile backup IF for Ozzie.

[dmbjeff]

Who's going to give up a backup IF and take on $1 million for Kotsay?

 

And a lesser but noteable point, who backs up 1b then? Konerko isn't as spry as he was in 2005 when our backup was Timo/Offday.

 

Well you obviously trade him for a guy make similar dollars. Who that is, I don't know, but Kotsay should be the one moved at that point. Andruw Jones played some 1B in Texas last year I believe. Teahen can also play 1B on days PK needs a day off and Vizquel can play 3B. They do need another back up IF I feel and Kotsay would be the odd man out I think.

[ptatc]

See Kevin Orie, Bobby Hill, Gary Scott, Jerome Walton, Dwight Smith, Shawon Dunston, Rich Hill, Angel Guzman, etc.

 

Some of those guys turned out to be "decent" major leaguers like Dunston, but nothing close to their hype.

 

 

 

As for Viciedo, we'd all rather see him at 3B because of his arm strength, but if his range/mobility are lacking, he has to be moved to 1B/DH or corner outfield. We've already invested the signing bonus into him, so let's just be patient and wait things out instead of jumping off the bandwagon. Alexei Ramirez was 26 and a "seasoned" veteran when he came to us, those comparisons of Viciedo making an instant impact (he got more money than Ramirez, who basically was a ROY type player) because they were both Cuban (not to mention our success with Contreras in 05/06) led us to see this signing with rose-colored glasses. Many of us were guilty of thinking he could make an impact as early as 2009, while others were being a lot more realistic. And the expectations for Ramirez when he came to us were very low, kind of a super-sub/utility guy in the mold of Ramon Santiago or Jose Oquendo with a "plus" arm but reed-like physique who would struggle to hold down the last spot on the roster or be in AAA.

 

By the way, Keith Law is an a s s.

 

I'm going to get tired of reading that we have the worst farm system in baseball when it's the opinion of ONE writer. I think that 18-24 is a lot more indicative of the actual level of talent in our system.

 

The only difference from this year to last year is Gordon Beckham being removed from the list. That doesn't account for falling 10 spots when we had a very solid draft last year.

 

Mitchell and Flowers, theoretically, have the ability to be All-Stars at their positions. Hudson is seen by many as one of the top 25-40 prospects in baseball, while some don't even rank him in the Top 100. Then you have Viciedo and Jordan Danks, both of those guys have God-given natural ability that can't be coached or taught. Neither of them may make a HUGE impact, but you can't begin to compare the state of our minor league system with 2-3 years ago when it was Josh Fields, Jerry Owens, Ehren Wasserman and Angel/Andy Gonzalez at the tops of the depth chart.

 

And Trayce Thompson has as much upside (and downside) as any prospect in the low minors today.

 

Sure there are doubts about Morel or Viciedo or CJ Retherford, but we're not close to being the worst farm system in baseball...no matter what Keith Law's personal vendetta against the Sox and/or KW happens to be.

 

I don't think you can count Walton and Smith as part of the Cubs overhype machiene as Walton won rookie of the year and Smith was second. However, neither turned out to have much of a career.

[ThunderBolt]

I think at that point you trade Kotsay during spring training for a backup IF.

Nah, trade him to the Marlins for one of their lefty arms. You sell him as the new Ross Gload, and you try to pickup Taylor Tankersley or Renyel Pinto.

[chw42]

A general question I was thinking about Re: Damon.

 

Hypothetically let's assume the Sox sign him. That makes our bench/DH rotation Vizquel, Kotsay, Jones, Damon, and Castro, if they go with 12 pitchers. (12 pitchers, 8 everyday players, 5 man bench/DH rotation).

 

Are people comfortable with a 44 year old Omar Vizquel being our only backup IF for 3 separate positions? At least to my eyes, we're pretty much required to carry either CJ or Nix just so we have 2 backups to cover the IF. That limits us to an 11 man pitching staff, and I'm not sure the org would be thrilled about that.

 

Anyway, you don't avoid signing Damon because of that, but I'd say it ought to be something they think about beforehand.

 

I certainly am.

[Balta1701]

You're comfortable with that?

 

Let me put it another way. If the end of the season came, and I told you that there were 5 games over the course of the season where we wound up having 2 infielders hurt, would you say "That's it, our season's gone" or would you say "Well, that's not half bad, I'm glad we didn't suffer too many major injuries".

 

There have been times in the last few years where we've had as many as 3 IF's go down or get tossed during a single game. THat's how JD wound up playing SS in 2005.

 

I'm just not sure I buy that you can count on a 44 year old to be your only backup IF. I think you have to go with an 11 man pitching staff and keep the extra IF if you bring in Damon and still hold onto Kotsay.