Tigers Sign Damon - 1 yr, 8 mil; NTC

[bmags]

k well he's won 1 mvp and damn near won a 2nd.

[hogan873]

My big question is if Damon doesn't sign with the Sox does KW keep looking for another bat? It's encouraging to see him going after Damon, but why is this happening after all the talk of the rotating DH and their committment to it? There are still a few bats left out there that will probably start going cheaper (Branyan, Blalock, Dye). I don't know what any of them would command so I won't speculate. I do wonder though if KW is taking matters into his own hands with the DH situation.

[everafan]

k well he's won 1 mvp and damn near won a 2nd.

 

The year he won the MVP he was only slightly better than Konerko.

[WCSox]

So you aren't willing to spend 4-5 million on a high OBP guy (which we lack), but are willing to waste a 100 million dollar roster with the best pitching staff on paper since 06

 

I never said that I wouldn't spend that kind of money on Damon (and Kenny and JR apparently haven't, either, as they reportedly offer him $7M). But if Damon wants $8M or $9M, I could see why Kenny would choose to tell him to go away.

 

How many high-OBP guys did we have in 2007 and 2009? Where did that get us? Look at the level of talent that the 2008 team had, and they couldn't do any better than one playoff victory. This team has under-achieved so badly over the past three years that it's not even funny.

 

just so you can spend all of the pieces of our future for a rental player at the deadline.

 

Who is likely to help this team more down the stretch: Johnny Damon or Carl Crawford? Johnny Damon or Adrian Gonzalez? Wouldn't you package Flowers with a couple of other prospects for Cawford? I sure as hell would.

 

And speaking of rental players, I haven't seen any evidence of the Sox offering Damon anything more than a one-year deal. Damon is, in effect, a rental player as well.

 

The Sox don't have unlimited funds and it's silly to whine and b**** about them not over-paying for a declining DH like Damon or Matsui. Especially when DH is really the only hole on this team. Complaining about Thome is fine... I get that and I agree that he should've been brought back. But the rest of this is just whining. The starting pitching is outstanding, the bullpen is very good, the outfield defense has improved substantially over the past 6 months. Given the contracts they're currently carrying, having a flawless roster is out of the question. Again, what's the downside to waiting and seeing how this team plays before deciding to invest more heavily in it?

 

[fathom]

The greatest 2? Mauer and who else? Please don't tell me Morneau. He's good but far from great and even farther from one of the best hitters in baseball.

 

I didn't say they were the greatest. I said that people really underrate the talent the Twins have, especially in their lineup. The funny thing is that when we face them, Kubel scares me more than Morneau or Mauer.

[Chisoxfn]

Oh, I know that. What I meant was that the thread starter had the 1st and 1000th post.

That might be a 1st.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

As over-paid as he may be, Hunter is much more accomplished and consistent than Rios, and thus is a much safer bet to produce.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this I guess, but Rios is more talented, cheaper, and younger. Hunter has gotten more out of his ability though, a lot more.

 

There's no question that Rios has the talent, but I don't like all of these rumors about his work ethic. He's declined over the past three seasons and was an absolute failure at the plate in Chicago last year. Of course, I expect Rios to rebound, but to what extent? It's far from a lock that he'll return to his '06 and '07 numbers. And even if he gets back to his '08 numbers, he's still overpaid in this market. Kenny gambled on a bad contract. I (obviously) hope that it works out, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

Rumors are rumors. Toronto was probably one of the least desirable places to play given how difficult it is for them to compete in their division in general, plus all the clubhouse issues with management, etc. There are all kinds of reasons for Rios to lack motivation, and since Rios was one of the big 3 names there (with Halladay and Wells) it makes sense that, true or not, Rios would get all kinds of labels and rumors attached to him. None of this stuff matters. He struggled with a new team, so what? Remember how bad Dye sucked when he first got here in 2005?

 

Disagree he's overpaid also. He currently looks overpaid because of his last 2 seasons, but I doubt that is indicative of his future here. He's not old, he's not hurt, and he's in a great new environment. He's signed into his prime, not through it, and it wasn't too long ago when he would have cost a fortune both in talent and dollars to acquire and extend.

 

Kenny had a crapload of holes to fill this off-season and spent like drunken politician last summer, so it's not that surprising that he rounded the lineup out with cheap options like Teahen and Vizquel, took a low-risk gamble on Jones, and got a good contact-hitting/base-stealing LF in Pierre at half of his (bad) contract price. I don't think that's necessarily a "backwards" way to fill a roster. I can understand why Kenny wouldn't want to pay $6.5M for Matsui, but I'm still baffled by his decision to not bring Thome back at the $1.5M or whatever it was that he got from MIN. THAT was not a smart move.

 

No he didn't. He had a huge hole in the offense at DH and he needed an outfielder. IMO you don't round out the lineup with bench players and glorified bench players like Teahen and Pierre when you have nothing in the center. For the exception of Putz, Kenny went out and got all garnish, no steak. BTW Matsui cost $4.5M more than he gave to Kotsay and Jones guaranteed - and guess how much we've apparently found hidden under the cushions to offer Damon? $4.5M. So I guess Kenny could have afforded that, and he still could have rounded out the lineup like you say afterwards, unless of course someone swooped in and stole all these coveted pieces that Kenny had to move on immediately.

 

Overall, though, Kenny's mindset is probably this: "We spent a s***-ton of money on high-priced veteran talent over the past four years and have a one division title (barely) and a whopping one playoff victory to show for it. Last year's team was a major disappointment and was over-crowded with aging dinosaurs who didn't produce and took up way too much payroll. Why, then, would I want to over-pay for good-but-not-great-and-overpriced players on the decline, like Matsui and Damon? Especially when my team is already teetering on a $100M payroll and I committed $100M to Peavy and Rios just 6 months ago? We don't have the luxury of having a stud at every position. If we have to skimp on DH for the time being, so be it. If this team shows some spark and looks like it can compete it June, I'll consider trading for a high-impact player like Crawford or Adrian Gonzalez. Until then, I don't see a reason to over-pay for declining talent to go 79-83 again."

Nobody overpaid for Matsui and the Sox aren't offering to overpay for Damon either. Nick Johnson and Vlad didn't get overpaid. Dye is certainly not going to be overpaid. Thome damn sure didn't get overpaid. All Kenny had to do was make a lowball offer like he's doing right now with Damon, and had he left it out there long enough it would have been taken. Kenny said right after Matsui signed that he didn't have that much money - and there was a blurb somewhere about how we couldn't afford the $5M or whatever Nick Johnson got either. Bulls***. We know now that they had that money. And nobody overpaid those guys. Kenny could very well have overpaid Mark Teahen with that extension, he probably overpaid Juan Pierre next year, he overpaid Omar Vizquel and Mark Kotsay it appears, and it turns out that actually Bobby Jenks is overpaid too, but he damn sure wouldn't have overpaid a productive veteran like those mentioned above by offering them market value, since market value was actually a pretty significant underpayment in pretty much every case. Abreu is about the only DH I can think of who got good money this year.

[WCSox]

And if we weren't negotiating, he would have said, that ship has sailed.

 

Not necessarily. If I were him, I wouldn't say anything. If the Tigers believe that Kenny and Boras are still talking, they have more incentive to cave in to Boras' demands.

 

I'm beginning to believe that Kenny thinks that, one way or the other, Damon will be signed by Sunday, and that's what his comments likely refer to.

 

[JPN366]

My take is, you rarely chase after a free agent who has already won a championship or more than one. At that point, they're only looking at dollars. Especially one who is Damon's age. Damon would sign with Pittsburgh if they made the best offer. The White Sox may be the team that's after him that has the best shot at the playoffs, but at 36 and with 2 rings, he's looking to bank as much as he can before he retires. I've been to both cities, and I'd say Mrs. Damon would like Chicago better.

[chw42]

The year he won the MVP he was only slightly better than Konerko.

Now that I look at it, this is actually very true.

 

Jeter should have won the MVP that year.

 

 

[Real]

When taking crawfords actual talent and ability into considersation, he may be the most overrated player in baseball. Not knocking him because hes pretty good, but look at the guys numbers, other than SBs, nothing pops out that tells me he deserves the hype surrounding him

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

When taking crawfords actual talent and ability into considersation, he may be the most overrated player in baseball. Not knocking him because hes pretty good, but look at the guys numbers, other than SBs, nothing pops out that tells me he deserves the hype surrounding him

This post needs to be framed and hung immediately.

[fathom]

This post needs to be framed and hung immediately.

 

Agreed, and just wait until his next contract. He'll be one of the most overpaid players as well.

[MattZakrowski]

Now that I look at it, this is actually very true.

 

Jeter should have won the MVP that year.

 

I'd have given it to Sizemore, but yeah, Morneau won on the strength of RBIs.

[Sockin]

Sox source: "We're not interested in adding to the misinformation out there."

 

http://twitter.com/ChuckGarfien/status/9295458864

[bmags]

I never said that I wouldn't spend that kind of money on Damon (and Kenny and JR apparently haven't, either, as they reportedly offer him $7M). But if Damon wants $8M or $9M, I could see why Kenny would choose to tell him to go away.

 

How many high-OBP guys did we have in 2007 and 2009? Where did that get us? Look at the level of talent that the 2008 team had, and they couldn't do any better than one playoff victory. This team has under-achieved so badly over the past three years that it's not even funny.

 

 

 

Who is likely to help this team more down the stretch: Johnny Damon or Carl Crawford? Johnny Damon or Adrian Gonzalez? Wouldn't you package Flowers with a couple of other prospects for Cawford? I sure as hell would.

 

And speaking of rental players, I haven't seen any evidence of the Sox offering Damon anything more than a one-year deal. Damon is, in effect, a rental player as well.

 

The Sox don't have unlimited funds and it's silly to whine and b**** about them not over-paying for a declining DH like Damon or Matsui. Especially when DH is really the only hole on this team. Complaining about Thome is fine... I get that and I agree that he should've been brought back. But the rest of this is just whining. The starting pitching is outstanding, the bullpen is very good, the outfield defense has improved substantially over the past 6 months. Given the contracts they're currently carrying, having a flawless roster is out of the question. Again, what's the downside to waiting and seeing how this team plays before deciding to invest more heavily in it?

 

 

"How many high-OBP guys did we have in 2007 and 2009" Not many. We had a really bad OBP last year. And as has been pointed out, we had decent #s for men in scoring position, but those opportunities didn't exist. Last year we were 10th out of 14 teams in the AL in OBP. In 2008, our OBP was still pretty low, but we made up for it with more power. This year, we didn't add any more power, and it damn sure doesn't appear that we added more base runners.

 

So, like 2007 and 2009, we are going to start the season with a huge, gaping offensive hole, watch us struggle, get 5 or so games behind and then use our minor league talent to nab a different player to fill this hole.

 

In 2005, we were the most complete team. Though we didn't grab amazing players, each spot was filled with a competent player. In years since, it seems a sure thing to go in with a s***ty spot, and it hurts the team.

 

We do have a high payroll, and if we don't win, it will need to be decreased. What's fascinating is that you want to trade players in the minors that for the first time look to be real MLB potential talent, whom would be cheap for 6 years, for players that would last 1 or 2 years before getting massive raises.

 

I'm not happy about Damon being the last resort, I've b****ed about it all winter. But it is what it is, and a one year stop gap does this team a hell of a lot of good.

[LittleHurt05]

My take is, you rarely chase after a free agent who has already won a championship or more than one. At that point, they're only looking at dollars. Especially one who is Damon's age. Damon would sign with Pittsburgh if they made the best offer. The White Sox may be the team that's after him that has the best shot at the playoffs, but at 36 and with 2 rings, he's looking to bank as much as he can before he retires. I've been to both cities, and I'd say Mrs. Damon would like Chicago better.

 

Damon has made nearly $100 million in his career. If the Pirates offered him $10 million, do you really think the extra $3-5mill would make him want to waste away at age 36 on a guaranteed last place team??? Esepcially after he has been in the playoffs 7 of the last 9 seasons with a couple titles??? I highly doubt it

[WCSox]

He struggled with a new team, so what? Remember how bad Dye sucked when he first got here in 2005?

 

Dye's sucking obviously wasn't relegated to early 2005. Therefore, I don't think that it had anything to do with a change of scenery.

 

Disagree he's overpaid also. He currently looks overpaid because of his last 2 seasons, but I doubt that is indicative of his future here. He's not old, he's not hurt, and he's in a great new environment. He's signed into his prime, not through it, and it wasn't too long ago when he would have cost a fortune both in talent and dollars to acquire and extend.

 

If Rios is entering his prime and isn't hurt, there's no reason for his numbers to be steadily declining. There's also no reason for him to go from above-average to terrible when going from a bad clubhouse to a better one.

 

No he didn't. He had a huge hole in the offense at DH and he needed an outfielder. IMO you don't round out the lineup with bench players and glorified bench players like Teahen and Pierre when you have nothing in the center. For the exception of Putz, Kenny went out and got all garnish, no steak.

 

Kenny also needed a middle reliever, and paid $3M for Putz. I disagree that Pierre is a "glorified bench player." Pierre put up a .350+ OBP last year and is a consistent near-.300 hitter who steals 30+ bases a season. He only rode the pine in LA because of Manny, and it's pretty difficult to fault him for that. And I'll take Teahen over Getz or Nix.

 

You're way too fixated on the DH position. If that's the only hole that the Sox currently have (given their very good pitching and relatively solid defense), they're not in bad shape at all. On the surface, I'd say that Kenny screwed up by not bringing Thome back into the fold for what turned out to be a rock-bottom price. But if Kenny decides that moving the payroll from $99M to $107M to sign Damon is poor cost/benefit, I won't begrudge him. Johnny Damon isn't going to make or break this squad. Starting pitching, the bullpen, and Quentin staying healthy are MUCH more critical to this team's success than somebody like Damon or Matsui.

Edited February 18, 2010 by WCSox

[fathom]

In 2005, we were the most complete team. Though we didn't grab amazing players, each spot was filled with a competent player. In years since, it seems a sure thing to go in with a s***ty spot, and it hurts the team.

 

It's true...last year at this time, we were b****ing about Wise being in CF. We all know how that worked out.

[bmags]

It's true...last year at this time, we were b****ing about Wise being in CF. We all know how that worked out.

 

and then we learned he was going to lead-off

[WCSox]

So, like 2007 and 2009, we are going to start the season with a huge, gaping offensive hole

 

Who was our "gaping offensive hole" going into 2007? If you're talking about Wise being the gaping hole that doomed us last year, you're off base there as well.

 

My God, dude, it's ONE FREAKING POSITION. Would you rather that "gaping hole" be in the starting rotation or in the closer or setup role? If the one big negative on my team is Andruw Jones at DH, that's far from the worst thing in the world.

 

In 2005, we were the most complete team. Though we didn't grab amazing players, each spot was filled with a competent player.

 

Like Pierre and Teahen?

 

In years since, it seems a sure thing to go in with a s***ty spot, and it hurts the team.

 

The high-priced veteran sluggers and bullpen arms that haven't produced are what have hurt this team in recent years. Much more so than having a career AAA guy like Dewayne Wise in the lineup.

 

We do have a high payroll, and if we don't win, it will need to be decreased. What's fascinating is that you want to trade players in the minors that for the first time look to be real MLB potential talent, whom would be cheap for 6 years, for players that would last 1 or 2 years before getting massive raises.

 

IMO, it's better to spend resources when it appears that you actually have a good chance of winning. If this team pitches like the 2005 squad, trading somebody like Flowers for Crawford is worth the gamble, IMO. Prospects are prospects until they prove otherwise, and it's not like the Sox look like world-beaters every May and June.

Edited February 18, 2010 by WCSox

[RibbieRubarb]

Like Pierre and Teahen?

 

Would you have called Podsednik and Iguchi competent players before 2005?....

Edited February 18, 2010 by RibbieRubarb

[WCSox]

Would you have called Podsednik and Iguchi competent players before 2005?....

 

Iguchi had a nice career in Japan prior to 2005. Pods posted a .379 OBP and was #2 in the ROY voting in 2003 (and stole 70 bases the following season).

 

So, yeah, I'd say that those guys were pretty competent before joining the Sox.

 

 

[whtsoxfan]

If the Sox sign Damon, that gives them a full roster of proven major league starting talent in the starting 9 and in turn, makes the bench better. Considering the improvements in starting pitching and bullpen, the team is quite the upgrade over last year's opening day cluster-cuss of question marks including Getz, Lillibridge, Wise, Anderson, Fields, Contreras, Colon, and bullpen guys like Mike MacDougal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pierre(LF), Rios(CF), Quentin(RF), Konerko(1B), Beckham(2B), Ramirez(SS), Teahen(3B), Pierzynski©, and Damon(DH/OF) are the core starting 9

 

Kotsay(DH/corner OF, 1b), Vizquel(IF/pinchrun?), Jones(OF/DH), Castro©, maybe Nix (IF) are the bench... these guys are all very better used as bench players or playing the hot hand if someone slumps or gets injured (I'm looking at Konerko, Rios, Pierre, and Quentin) than rotating into the starting 9 on an every day basis.

 

Buehrle, Peavy, Floyd, Danks, and Garcia are the starting 5

 

Jenks(closer), Thornton(7th/8th inning/LH situational), Putz(7th/8th inning/RH situational), Linebrink(middle relief), Hudson/Torres/Marquez (long reliever of some sort), and Williams (LOOGY if they don't carry Nix) are the bullpen.

 

There's still some things to shake out regarding the placement of bullpen pitchers, but signing Johnny Damon makes our starting 9 and bench exponentially better with less question marks about how the team is going to produce.

 

 

If the White sox sign Damon then either Andruw Jones or Nix will be out. The White Sox typically carry 12 pitchers. The choice to be made if Damon signs will be to carry 6 outfielders with only 5 infielders or 5 outfielders and 6 infielders. With 5 infielders the reserve infielder would be Vizquel.

[bmags]

Would you have called Podsednik and Iguchi competent players before 2005?....

 

Do you remember how psyched this board and soxdom at large was about Iguchi?

 

And this is one position that was EASILY FILLED. I'd be willing to let go Pierre, an inferior leadoff hitter, if we had a good lineup behind him. But instead we have a bad leadoff hitter to be coupled with a bad DH. That's 2 positions. But yeah leadoff is hard to fill. DH is easier to fill if you consider putting in bench players "filling it". I don't. I consider it a detriment to the team. And this well, let's see if this team fails or succeeds with a really bad offense before we add any players when you already have a 100 mill. payroll and an awesome pitching staff is really, really stupid, when you can just plug that hole with a 1) LH hitter (which is lacking ) 2) High OBP (which is lacking) player. It's a better allocation of resources, spending on a one year deal, instead of hoping that a really good bat is available for our not-so-deep farm system.