Tigers Sign Damon - 1 yr, 8 mil; NTC

[fathom]

Would you have called Podsednik and Iguchi competent players before 2005?....

 

Absolutely

[dmbjeff]

If the White sox sign Damon then either Andruw Jones or Nix will be out. The White Sox typically carry 12 pitchers. The choice to be made if Damon signs will be to carry 6 outfielders with only 5 infielders or 5 outfielders and 6 infielders. With 5 infielders the reserve infielder would be Vizquel.

 

They would have all of spring training to work a trade for one of the backup OF's for a backup IF. That really isn't much of a concern as it is just to sign Damon. Small potatoes.

 

 

Damon needs to be signed. Remember the 93 team, the 94 team, we signed stopgap guys in Ellis Burks and Julio Franco in those seasons to fill holes and both worked out great and got us over the hump each year, granted 94 was halted by the strike.

[bmags]

also in 2007 we had Darren Erstadt in CF and leadoff. Ugh god. And then a bunch of injuries you can't foresee, I know.

 

In 2006 we had anderson. I won't fault them for that, it was his time, but the mackowiak/anderson debacle that year really was a big problem. Though the pitching staff falling apart was worse.

[dmbjeff]

They would have all of spring training to work a trade for one of the backup OF's for a backup IF. That really isn't much of a concern as it is just to sign Damon. Small potatoes.

 

 

Damon needs to be signed. Remember the 93 team, the 94 team, we signed stopgap guys in Ellis Burks and Julio Franco in those seasons to fill holes and both worked out great and got us over the hump each year, granted 94 was halted by the strike.

 

That 94 team would have whipped the 05 teams ass by the way, they were unbelievable.

[ptatc]

"How many high-OBP guys did we have in 2007 and 2009" Not many. We had a really bad OBP last year. And as has been pointed out, we had decent #s for men in scoring position, but those opportunities didn't exist. Last year we were 10th out of 14 teams in the AL in OBP. In 2008, our OBP was still pretty low, but we made up for it with more power. This year, we didn't add any more power, and it damn sure doesn't appear that we added more base runners.

 

So, like 2007 and 2009, we are going to start the season with a huge, gaping offensive hole, watch us struggle, get 5 or so games behind and then use our minor league talent to nab a different player to fill this hole.

 

In 2005, we were the most complete team. Though we didn't grab amazing players, each spot was filled with a competent player. In years since, it seems a sure thing to go in with a s***ty spot, and it hurts the team.

We do have a high payroll, and if we don't win, it will need to be decreased. What's fascinating is that you want to trade players in the minors that for the first time look to be real MLB potential talent, whom would be cheap for 6 years, for players that would last 1 or 2 years before getting massive raises.

 

I'm not happy about Damon being the last resort, I've b****ed about it all winter. But it is what it is, and a one year stop gap does this team a hell of a lot of good.

 

Really? You were satisfied with Everett as being the primary DH?

 

[gatnom]

My God, dude, it's ONE FREAKING POSITION. Would you rather that "gaping hole" be in the starting rotation or in the closer or setup role? If the one big negative on my team is Andruw Jones at DH, that's far from the worst thing in the world.

 

Well, you can't take any position in a vacuum like you just did with our DH right there. Andruw Jones as your DH sounds a lot worse when you realize that our offense was ranked 12 out of 14 in the AL in terms of runs scored last year. Our pitching, on the other hand, was ranked 2 of 14, and look where that got us: 7.5 games out of first place with a losing record. You do need to have some sort of balance to a team. So, while I would agree that pitching is generally more important than hitting while building a team, you can't just make the 12th worst offense in the AL even worse and then justify that by saying it's only one position.

 

[The Gooch]

That 94 team would have whipped the 05 teams ass by the way, they were unbelievable.

 

There is a whole new interesting topic in itself

[bmags]

Really? You were satisfied with Everett as being the primary DH?

 

You have to remember that at the time I thought it would be for 2 mos. before Thomas would return. I had no idea thomas would then also get injured again. And in 04 thomas was having a damn nice season.

[dmbjeff]

Really? You were satisfied with Everett as being the primary DH?

 

Everett was the DH because they were waiting for Big Frank to get back and he only lasted a month thus, Jurrasic got the bulk of the AB's. But the DH spot that year put up 35HR and 113rbi between the 2 that season. I seriously doubt Jones/Kotsay get to much more than half of that total.

[dmbjeff]

There is a whole new interesting topic in itself

 

Yeah probably the wrong place to bring up the topic, but after mentioning the 93 and 94 team it got me to thinking how damn good that team was. Back to the Damon shenanigans.

[WCSox]

also in 2007 we had Darren Erstadt in CF and leadoff. Ugh god. And then a bunch of injuries you can't foresee, I know.

 

In 2006 we had anderson. I won't fault them for that, it was his time, but the mackowiak/anderson debacle that year really was a big problem. Though the pitching staff falling apart was worse.

 

In other words, having those holes in the lineup before the season started aren't what really hurt those teams. High-priced veterans that didn't produce (due to either declining skills or injury) were.

 

Well, you can't take any position in a vacuum like you just did with our DH right there. Andruw Jones as your DH sounds a lot worse when you realize that our offense was ranked 12 out of 14 in the AL in terms of runs scored last year. Our pitching, on the other hand, was ranked 2 of 14, and look where that got us: 7.5 games out of first place with a losing record. You do need to have some sort of balance to a team. So, while I would agree that pitching is generally more important than hitting while building a team, you can't just make the 12th worst offense in the AL even worse and then justify that by saying it's only one position.

 

Part of improving the offense is getting rid of Dye, who has been worthless after the ASB in two of the last three seasons. Part of our low offensive output last year was losing Quentin to injury and then trying to play through the injury. A healthy Quentin will help tremendously, and Pierre will probably be an upgrade over Dye at this point in their respective careers. Rios hitting even halfway decently will also be a plus.

 

I completely agree that this team lacks balance, and that it's an issue. But I don't think that the offense is going to be as bad as they were last year. They may be below-average (maybe 9th or 10th out of 14), but still good enough to compliment an elite rotation and a (hopefully) solid bullpen.

Edited February 18, 2010 by WCSox

[bmags]

I have no idea what you're argument is, WCsox, but if it's that we should fill a DH spot with "floor is their ceiling" s*** DH players just because you were hurt in the past by our underperforming veterans, than I guess we agree to disagree.

 

Signing Damon only helps this team. It's a 1-year contract. Keeping our DH sit. as is only hurts this team. And it wastes our pitching staff.

[ptatc]

Everett was the DH because they were waiting for Big Frank to get back and he only lasted a month thus, Jurrasic got the bulk of the AB's. But the DH spot that year put up 35HR and 113rbi between the 2 that season. I seriously doubt Jones/Kotsay get to much more than half of that total.

 

everyone knew that frank wasn't going to do much. I'm not asking how it tunred out, I'm asking if people were comfortable with it.

 

Jones hit 17 HR in limited at bats last year. There's no questioning if he played full time he would be close to leading the team in HR's, however are people comfortable with that going into the season. It doesn't sound like most people like it.

 

[dmbjeff]

everyone knew that frank wasn't going to do much. I'm not asking how it tunred out, I'm asking if people were comfortable with it.

 

Jones hit 17 HR in limited at bats last year. There's no questioning if he played full time he would be close to leading the team in HR's, however are people comfortable with that going into the season. It doesn't sound like most people like it.

 

But in a platoon role, Jones will get 40% of the AB's at most against LHP only. He isn't being counted on as a full time DH, so why bring up the "if he played a full season" card. So once again limited AB's for Jones and his power which he does have will only play a few times a week so it won't add up to much. Kotsay has enough power to maybe hit out 8-10 HR with his 60% share of the DH duties, but he isn't a power hitter, never has been, never will.

[JPN366]

Damon has made nearly $100 million in his career. If the Pirates offered him $10 million, do you really think the extra $3-5mill would make him want to waste away at age 36 on a guaranteed last place team??? Esepcially after he has been in the playoffs 7 of the last 9 seasons with a couple titles??? I highly doubt it

 

I was making a general point about chasing players who've already achieved what Damon has in his career. Just saying that it's not unlikely to get out bid by a less competitive team. They don't seem as motivated to win, and that's what White Sox fans want. Not saying Damon has no desire to win. Just saying that even though Detroit may not be as competitive as Chicago, he may take more money over a team that could fill a hole with him due to a better pay day. If I had to retire at or around 40, I'd want to make sure I could live comfortably the rest of my life with my trophy wife especially if I had already reached the pinnacle of what I was trying to achieve.

[Texsox]

Damon has made nearly $100 million in his career. If the Pirates offered him $10 million, do you really think the extra $3-5mill would make him want to waste away at age 36 on a guaranteed last place team??? Esepcially after he has been in the playoffs 7 of the last 9 seasons with a couple titles??? I highly doubt it

While that sounds good, then why is he looking to Chicago or Detroit? Why isn't he in NY or LA begging to play for the league min?

[dmbjeff]

While that sounds good, then why is he looking to Chicago or Detroit? Why isn't he in NY or LA begging to play for the league min?

 

This is the same guy who fled Boston, a place where he was treated as a God and then was referred to as Judas, for more money. To suggest he doesn't want the best deal is crazy.

[LittleHurt05]

While that sounds good, then why is he looking to Chicago or Detroit? Why isn't he in NY or LA begging to play for the league min?

 

I'm not trying to say that winning is the only thing and money doesn't matter. But if he was only concerned about the most money, he would have made his decision a while ago.

[ScottyDo]

But in a platoon role, Jones will get 40% of the AB's at most against LHP only. He isn't being counted on as a full time DH, so why bring up the "if he played a full season" card. So once again limited AB's for Jones and his power which he does have will only play a few times a week so it won't add up to much. Kotsay has enough power to maybe hit out 8-10 HR with his 60% share of the DH duties, but he isn't a power hitter, never has been, never will.

Well, a platoon might benefit his numbers. He's got a somewhat heavy split, so I can see his power/avg improving facing almost exclusively lefties.

 

But I think most of us are (relatively) satisfied with the Jones half of a platoon -- he still hammers lefties pretty well -- so we really don't need to include him in the conversation. Kotsay is the rub. He's only in there because he's the best lefty we've got. I'm just as unhappy about his half as the rest of us, but I do think they could even out to a somewhat passable DH. It's mostly bothersome to me that we have to waste two roster spots on a position that should be filled by one. It's one thing to platoon LF/RF where people can play the field in other spots, rotate into DH, or whatever you need to do on a daily basis. Kotsay and Jones both CAN play the field, but really, life would be a lot nicer if we only needed the one of them.

[LittleHurt05]

This is the same guy who fled Boston, a place where he was treated as a God and then was referred to as Judas, for more money. To suggest he doesn't want the best deal is crazy.

 

Yeah, but the team he went to also has the most money to spend on players, and therefore, one of the best chances to win the WS each year, so it also made sense as far as a success standpoint

[WCSox]

I have no idea what you're argument is, WCsox, but if it's that we should fill a DH spot with "floor is their ceiling" s*** DH players just because you were hurt in the past by our underperforming veterans, than I guess we agree to disagree.

 

My argument is that owners and general managers don't look at their team in the same way that you do. You seem to have this notion that spending, spending, and more spending on veteran talent is the answer, despite the fact that that strategy has failed miserably in two of the past three seasons and that the Sox are already teetering on a $100M payroll with dwindling fan interest. Coincidentally, none of this money comes out of your own pocket and your ass isn't the one on the line when high-priced players like Dye, Rios, and Linebrink bomb down the stretch. This isn't a video game. Results matter in this business. If you don't get the correct ones, either your funding gets cut or you get fired.

 

If you want to complain as a fan about the Sox not wanting to pay Damon the $9M or so that it would take to keep him from going to Detroit, that's your prerogative. But in the real world, that's not how things work. Hell, I'm sure that JR and the board would approve Kenny's request to fork over another $15M if he could agree to terms with a high-impact player that would likely add another 10 wins to this team and stimulate gate revenue (via winning) to offset that cost. (Remember, this happened TWICE last summer... and you know what the results were.) But since Kenny apparently doesn't think that Damon is going to turn the Sox into an instant contender, he's not going to continue to put his ass (and his job) on the line for people like you.

Edited February 18, 2010 by WCSox

[Jordan4life_2007]

That 94 team would have whipped the 05 teams ass by the way, they were unbelievable.

 

 

Yeah probably the wrong place to bring up the topic, but after mentioning the 93 and 94 team it got me to thinking how damn good that team was. Back to the Damon shenanigans.

 

Not even a contest. The '94 team was the best I've ever witnessed. The pitching was just about as good as '93 with a VASTLY improved offense. Frank was Frank. He was the best offensive player in the world at the time. But what Julio Franco brought to the lineup, well, words really can't describe. And now I feel like going to the zoo and killing every animal I see. '94 still hurts.

[Crash73]

This is the same guy who fled Boston, a place where he was treated as a God and then was referred to as Judas, for more money. To suggest he doesn't want the best deal is crazy.

 

Very true, unless he is an egomaniac. Titles with three different teams would make him legendary.

[ScottyDo]

This is the same guy who fled Boston, a place where he was treated as a God and then was referred to as Judas, for more money. To suggest he doesn't want the best deal is crazy.

The Yankees were also a near-guaranteed winning team (yeah, I remember 2008). If they were an awful team I doubt he would have turncoated like that. Just goes to show how many different things factor into a contract decision. I don't envy him that. I do envy him the $248502635 contract he's going to "settle for", though. Jerk.

 

I deserve free money!

[LittleHurt05]

I was making a general point about chasing players who've already achieved what Damon has in his career. Just saying that it's not unlikely to get out bid by a less competitive team. They don't seem as motivated to win, and that's what White Sox fans want. Not saying Damon has no desire to win. Just saying that even though Detroit may not be as competitive as Chicago, he may take more money over a team that could fill a hole with him due to a better pay day. If I had to retire at or around 40, I'd want to make sure I could live comfortably the rest of my life with my trophy wife especially if I had already reached the pinnacle of what I was trying to achieve.

 

That also depends on the player and how badly they still want to play or need the money. Some guys keep going at it until the league tells them they are no good anymore, while some players will glady leave at 36 if the right deal/situation doesnt come around.