Tigers Sign Damon - 1 yr, 8 mil; NTC

[knightni]

Stat talking is fine guys, but the insulting needs to stop.

[ScottyDo]

I don't really think the Johnny Damon situation was a budget issue so much. I think it was more that KW placed a cap on what Johnny Damon was really worth, got Reinsdorf to okay that value, offered Boras that value, and was essentially rebuffed. I just think that, for whatever reason, Dombrowski placed more value on Damon than we do (which is weird, because why trade Granderson then sign Damon in one offseason? But I digress). Thus, the budget constraints were pliable, as they probably should have been, but that doesn't mean you just pay any amount for a player if you want them mildly.

[Crash73]

For future reference, stooping to Jon Stewart's level doesn't help your argument.

 

For future reference, please write like that all the time. John Stewart is hilarious and so was your comment.

 

IMO, all this arguing is for naught. KW will see what the offense is doing, during the first month or so. Then he will make a move. Neither JR or KW will want to waste a great rotation.

[iamshack]

I see both of your points. If you're going to spend $100 million, you may as well attempt to win. If it takes $110 million to win, it's probably wise to scratch and claw and do everything possible to obtain the additional $10 million than to waste the $100 million to come up short.

 

However, at the same time, this is a slippery slope argument and there is no guarantee that spending the additional $10 million is going to get us over the hump.

 

Obviously, the best course of action is to minimize vulnerability in the marketplace by stockpiling talented pre-arb players through the draft and international signings, but that is neither here nor there.

[WCSox]

I don't think the point could've gone further over your head.

 

So let me be blunt: I know we are on a budget. I'm not asking that we don't work on a budget. I'm asking that we spend our resources more wisely, so that we can fill a position that is typically cheap, while still offensively productive.

 

The analogy, of course, is saying that you are looking at the very end point, and crying budget. And refusing criticism because you are only looking at this point. I don't like the position we are in, and I'm complaining about the position and how we got here.

 

Yes, I understand your silly analogy.

 

Ironically, we "got here" by following your own strategy of "spend as much as needed on free agents, so there aren't any holes in the lineup." That strategy isn't sustainable. When over-priced dinosaurs like Thome and Dye decline to the point of uselessness, there's going to be a transition period. I thought that would be obvious to you, but apparently not. And that transition has been softened by the acquisitions of Rios and Pierre (the latter of which is probably an overall performance improvement over Dye at this point in their respective careers). But apparently that and Jake Freaking Peavy aren't enough for you. Gimme, gimme, gimme! And, yeah, no kidding that the farm system hasn't produced a lineup of Gordon Beckhams over the past five years. Instead, the organization has spent more than they've wanted to and have put guys like Thome, Swisher, and Rios into the lineup to offset that. Yeah, it sucks that the Sox were only able to home-grow a few outstanding pitchers and not an entire 25-man roster of All-Stars. But that's reality.

 

And for some reason, you insist on incessantly whining about how the team got here when that ship sailed years ago and there isn't a thing that anybody can do about it right now. Freaking get over it. You sound like a 10-year-old who is still complaining about not seeing a Wii under the Christmas tree back in December.

Edited February 20, 2010 by WCSox

[knightni]

Yes, I understand your silly analogy.

What part of "stop the insults" did you miss?

[WCSox]

I see both of your points. If you're going to spend $100 million, you may as well attempt to win. If it takes $110 million to win, it's probably wise to scratch and claw and do everything possible to obtain the additional $10 million than to waste the $100 million to come up short.

 

It may not be so easy for KW to convince JR and the rest of the board to increase the budget by 10% in a bad economy and with slowly-waning attendance. Especially after he convinced them to dole out over $100M on two players last year and the team bombed in response.

 

[iamshack]

It may not be so easy for KW to convince JR and the rest of the board to increase the budget by 10% in a bad economy and with slowly-waning attendance. Especially after he convinced them to dole out over $100M on two players last year and the team bombed in response.

JR has already come out and stated that the money is there, as did Brooks Boyer.

[southsider2k5]

JR has already come out and stated that the money is there, as did Brooks Boyer.

 

He said money was there, he never said exactly how much.

[chunk23]

Yes, I understand your silly analogy.

 

Ironically, we "got here" by following your own strategy of "spend as much as needed on free agents, so there aren't any holes in the lineup." That strategy isn't sustainable. When over-priced dinosaurs like Thome and Dye decline to the point of uselessness, there's going to be a transition period. I thought that would be obvious to you, but apparently not. And that transition has been softened by the acquisitions of Rios and Pierre (the latter of which is probably an overall performance improvement over Dye at this point in their respective careers). But apparently that and Jake Freaking Peavy aren't enough for you. Gimme, gimme, gimme! And, yeah, no kidding that the farm system hasn't produced a lineup of Gordon Beckhams over the past five years. Instead, the organization has spent more than they've wanted to and have put guys like Thome, Swisher, and Rios into the lineup to offset that. Yeah, it sucks that the Sox were only able to home-grow a few outstanding pitchers and not an entire 25-man roster of All-Stars. But that's reality.

 

And for some reason, you insist on incessantly whining about how the team got here when that ship sailed years ago and there isn't a thing that anybody can do about it right now. Freaking get over it. You sound like a 10-year-old who is still complaining about not seeing a Wii under the Christmas tree back in December.

 

KW rarely goes after FAs. He built this team largely through trades.

 

As far as I can tell, you're stance on the team is just sit down and shut up. Is that correct?

[iamshack]

He said money was there, he never said exactly how much.

Well I doubt he meant $3 million.

 

Both JR and Boyer have stated the money is available to acquire an impact player. That would seem to imply that is a reasonable amount.

 

 

[WCSox]

KW rarely goes after FAs.

 

You mean like Johnny Damon and Hideki Matsui?

 

As far as I can tell, you're stance on the team is just sit down and shut up. Is that correct?

 

No, it's more like "stop complaining about the lack of spending on a $6M+ FA DH when the payroll is already teetering on $100M, you have arguably the best rotation in the AL, a solid bullpen, improved defense, and your GM committed over $100M to two players via trades just 6 months ago."

Edited February 20, 2010 by WCSox

[WCSox]

Well I doubt he meant $3 million.

 

Both JR and Boyer have stated the money is available to acquire an impact player. That would seem to imply that is a reasonable amount.

 

Apparently they don't consider Damon to be an "impact player." He's close, but they would've spent $7M+ had they been forced to out-bid DET.

 

They're either going to go with a cheap, one-year deal on a guy like Blalock or will go after somebody like Crawford in June/July.

 

[iamshack]

Apparently they don't consider Damon to be an "impact player." He's close, but they would've spent $7M+ had they been forced to out-bid DET.

 

They're either going to go with a cheap, one-year deal on a guy like Blalock or will go after somebody like Crawford in June/July.

? You lost me there.

[WCSox]

? You lost me there.

 

Sorry, I didn't connect those two ideas very well.

 

(1) Damon is not an "impact player" in my opinion, but he's relatively close.

 

(2) Damon likely would've cost the Sox at least $7M if Kenny didn't pull out his bid, announce the value of his offer, and thus undermine Boras' ability to drive up the price via a bidding war.

 

[bmags]

Yes, I understand your silly analogy.

 

Ironically, we "got here" by following your own strategy of "spend as much as needed on free agents, so there aren't any holes in the lineup."

 

And for some reason, you insist on incessantly whining about how the team got here when that ship sailed years ago and there isn't a thing that anybody can do about it right now. Freaking get over it. You sound like a 10-year-old who is still complaining about not seeing a Wii under the Christmas tree back in December.

 

This was never my position. DH was the ideal position to fill via free agency because of the depressed salaries it was commanding.

 

As far as criticizing an executive for, imo, making a really shortsighted commitment that will cost them games, sorry. I guess I should just result to insulting posters and trying to convince everyone that putting two horrible baseball players at a position, and relying on a great rotation to overcome what is likely to be one of the worst offenses in the AL, are REALLY great ideas. Because...we're on a budget

[gatnom]

Sorry, I didn't connect those two ideas very well.

 

(1) Damon is not an "impact player" in my opinion, but he's relatively close.

 

(2) Damon likely would've cost the Sox at least $7M if Kenny didn't pull out his bid, announce the value of his offer, and thus undermine Boras' ability to drive up the price via a bidding war.

 

You're right, Damon wouldn't have positively impacted this offense at all...

[iamshack]

Sorry, I didn't connect those two ideas very well.

 

(1) Damon is not an "impact player" in my opinion, but he's relatively close.

 

(2) Damon likely would've cost the Sox at least $7M if Kenny didn't pull out his bid, announce the value of his offer, and thus undermine Boras' ability to drive up the price via a bidding war.

Oh, I can agree with that.

 

My point was that the money IS there.

 

And they WERE willing to spend it on Damon.

 

But only to what the market dictates, not what Scott Boras dictates.

 

[ScottyDo]

This was never my position. DH was the ideal position to fill via free agency because of the depressed salaries it was commanding.

 

As far as criticizing an executive for, imo, making a really shortsighted commitment that will cost them games, sorry. I guess I should just result to insulting posters and trying to convince everyone that putting two horrible baseball players at a position, and relying on a great rotation to overcome what is likely to be one of the worst offenses in the AL, are REALLY great ideas. Because...we're on a budget

Personally, I get where you're coming from, but I don't think it's as doomsday as all that. I expect a middle-of-the-pack offense next year even with the DH situation as it currently stands.

[dmbjeff]

I think it's time to start discussing players who will be a midseason pickup via trade at this point, because that's where all signs are pointed towards going IMO.

 

I think the most ideal pick up at that time will be Adam Dunn. He is a huge power bat, great OBP and in the last year of his deal so could probably be had for a prospect. He has the ability to play 1B and LF, poorly, but can be trotted out there if necessary.

[WCSox]

This was never my position. DH was the ideal position to fill via free agency because of the depressed salaries it was commanding.

 

As far as criticizing an executive for, imo, making a really shortsighted commitment that will cost them games, sorry. I guess I should just result to insulting posters and trying to convince everyone that putting two horrible baseball players at a position, and relying on a great rotation to overcome what is likely to be one of the worst offenses in the AL, are REALLY great ideas. Because...we're on a budget

 

If you feel that I've insulted you, that post of sarcastic pseudo-art has more than evened the score. It's time to drop it.

 

I don't believe that this offense is going to be as bad as you do. The Sox were one of the worst offenses in the AL in two of the past three years, and it wasn't because they lacked the raw talent. An average MLB position player is an improvement over much of Dye's past three seasons. A healthy Quentin is obviously a big step up over the last year and a half or so of injured Quentin. Rios is a massive upgrade over Wise/Pods. Beckham isn't going to get worse after seeing 2/3 of a season's worth of AL pitching. They're not going to kick ass or anything, but they should be good enough to win a "meh" division when combined with an excellent pitching staff and much better-than-recent defense.

 

I still think that Kenny is going to land a FA DH (the fact that he seriously negotiated for Damon shows that he's actively looking). It's not going to be a big-money guy like Damon or Matsui. It'll probably end up being somebody like Blalock or Branyan. Not great, but more reliable than Jones. If Kenny DOESN'T land a relatively inexpensive guy like that, then the oft-made criticism of him not re-signing Thome on the cheap will be validated.

 

[WCSox]

Oh, I can agree with that.

 

My point was that the money IS there.

 

And they WERE willing to spend it on Damon.

 

But only to what the market dictates, not what Scott Boras dictates.

 

If the "true" market value for Damon is $6M and Boras was going to pump it up to at least $7M via a bidding war with DET, then I agree.

 

Also agree on "the money is there" point. Yeah, they can reach back and go into short-term debt if they want (or borrow it from a bank). But after four years of high spending and inconsistent and mostly-disappointing results, I don't fault them at all for having tighter fists this year. If I'm Kenny and I'm going to put my job on the line, it's not going to be for somebody like AGon, not Damon.

 

[Balta1701]

It'll probably end up being somebody like Blalock or Branyan.

Branyan signed a 1 year deal with the Indians.

[chunk23]

If you feel that I've insulted you, that post of sarcastic pseudo-art has more than evened the score. It's time to drop it.

 

I don't believe that this offense is going to be as bad as you do. The Sox were one of the worst offenses in the AL in two of the past three years, and it wasn't because they lacked the raw talent. An average MLB position player is an improvement over much of Dye's past three seasons. A healthy Quentin is obviously a big step up over the last year and a half or so of injured Quentin. Rios is a massive upgrade over Wise/Pods. Beckham isn't going to get worse after seeing 2/3 of a season's worth of AL pitching. They're not going to kick ass or anything, but they should be good enough to win a "meh" division when combined with an excellent pitching staff and much better-than-recent defense.

 

I still think that Kenny is going to land a FA DH (the fact that he seriously negotiated for Damon shows that he's actively looking). It's not going to be a big-money guy like Damon or Matsui. It'll probably end up being somebody like Blalock or Branyan. Not great, but more reliable than Jones. If Kenny DOESN'T land a relatively inexpensive guy like that, then the oft-made criticism of him not re-signing Thome on the cheap will be validated.

 

Besides his terrible 2nd half last year, Dye was certainly one of the better Sox hitters. And who is this average position player he's being replaced with? Rios might be an upgrade, but who knows if he'll bounce back?

 

 

VV a few days ago. He signed pretty cheap too.

Edited February 20, 2010 by chunk23

[WCSox]

Branyan signed a 1 year deal with the Indians.

 

I take it this was very recently? I checked MLB's player page before posting that and he was still listed as a FA.