Tigers Sign Damon - 1 yr, 8 mil; NTC

[whitesoxfan101]

If Tyler Flowers played any position but catcher, I'd think the team would seriously consider him for the DH spot right now. But since he's the future replacement for AJ at catcher, he's better off staying in the minors and learning obviously.

[iamshack]

That KW put himself in a financial straight-jacket with the Peavy and Rios acquisitions...

 

There were a lot of "ifs" at the eve of 2005, too. Iguchi, Pods, Dye coming off an injury, and exactly what did El Duque have left, if anything? How close was McCarthy (not unlike Hudson this year)? Takatsu was the de-facto closer but everyone was worried about hitters sitting on his FB and laying off the frisbees (see One Tricky Pony). The bullpen, there were no hints of the seasons Cotts and Politte would have.

 

The problem I guess is when there's no margin for error, everything has to go right. We have insurance for one injury in the starting rotation, that's good.

 

I'm starting to believe that Tyler Flowers is going to be given a serious look as the DH at some point this season, maybe even in the first half. Otherwise, there's not really any logic to what KW is doing.

So you're claiming that Ozzie is just rolling with this roster and taking one for the team by pretending this is just what he has always wanted?

[WCSox]

If the 2007 and 2009 seasons have shown anything, it's our inability to develop and not have to trade our minor league prospects that has put us in this defensive position with roster construction in the first place.

 

Agreed about that first part, but none of the prospects that we've traded over the past five or so years have amounted to much. I'm perfectly fine with dealing guys like Richard and Poreda for Peavy and Olivo for Garcia.

 

[caulfield12]

So you're claiming that Ozzie is just rolling with this roster and taking one for the team by pretending this is just what he has always wanted?

 

 

If you had the Vizquel from 2000 with the bat hitting 2nd, Juan Pierre, Andruw Jones and Kotsay in their primes, then there would be absolutely no problems with this roster.

 

You could hit Beckham 1st or 3rd and hit Pierre 1st or 9th with Vizquel 2nd.

 

Unfortunately, we are going to have to use Pierre at leadoff 80-85% of the time and we are far from having an ideal #2 hitter. Beckham might have to hit in this spot, because Ramirez, AJ and Rios all have weaknesses in their approaches that preclude them being strong candidates for the role.

 

It's kind of the same thing with Boyer or JR saying they have money to spend as Ozzie saying he loves this roster. Now he wasn't out there everyday hyping D-Wise as the leadoff hitter and starting CFer, I'll give you that. But everyone these days has their "PR spin" and they're not going to openly question their boss before things have gone south.

 

I don't even have a problem with Andruw Jones as the DH against LHP, really. It's having sacrificed Dye and Thome AND not having coming up with a legit LH power hitter that's the obvious issue befuddling everyone on this board for months. Maybe Ozzie's just seeing Kotsay with rose-colored glasses based on 2009's second half, I don't know. Same thing with Juan Pierre's stat line from last year. In some ways, Kotsay having success led to this problem...the belief that he can repeat or sustain it at his age and with his history of injuries.

Edited February 21, 2010 by caulfield12

[iamshack]

But KW and Jerry wanted to sign Thome and Ozzie basically said he would refuse to get him consistent at bats.

 

JR has said he can't hold Ozzie accountable without giving him the roster he wants. KW has been chomping at the bit to add a LH bat and Ozzie has been dragging his heels and trumpeting the value of flexibility and speed.

 

All signs point to this being Ozzie's experiment with Kenny having a short leash on him should it fail.

[caulfield12]

Agreed about that first part, but none of the prospects that we've traded over the past five or so years have amounted to much. I'm perfectly fine with dealing guys like Richard and Poreda for Peavy and Olivo for Garcia.

 

So then I'll roll this question, and I'm pretty sure of your answer.

 

You would hold on to Hudson, Flowers and Mitchell (although I would hope it would ONLY cost Jordan Danks) instead of trading them for two years of Adrian Gonzalez, yes?

 

If KW has demonstrated anything, he very rarely makes those "all or nothing moves" that are intended for winning it all one season but not being sustainable. You could certainly argue he's boxed in with the contracts of Buehrle, Konerko, Rios, Peavy, Linebrink, Jenks, etc.

 

The problem most fans have is with watching winnable divisions (like 2009) slip away when the competition from the Twins is getting even stronger, and the Tigers have shown the willingness to still outspend us when their city looks like Ireland/Iceland/Portugal/Spain/Greece economically...and the fact that Eric Wedge is no longer the manager of the Indians. A lot of our advantages that we rode after the World Series title are now pretty much gone.

[chunk23]

Actually, we've replaced Dye with Pierre and Fields/Nix/Getz with Teahen. The drop-off from Thome to Jones is significant, but that's the major drop-off. If Rios is halfway decent and Quentin is healthy, this offense will be at least a little better.

 

 

 

Agreed. That said, Thome and Branyan have already signed for cheap. If Kenny overlooks Blalock as well, he'dd better have something big in store down the road.

 

Replacing Dye with Pierre is a massive offensive downgrade. Teahen isn't good. Better than Fields/Nix/Getz, but still below average. There is no guarantee whatsover that Rios will bounce back or Quentin will be healthy. KW is counting on way too many lucky breaks.

[ScottyDo]

Replacing Dye with Pierre is a massive offensive downgrade. Teahen isn't good. Better than Fields/Nix/Getz, but still below average. There is no guarantee whatsover that Rios will bounce back or Quentin will be healthy. KW is counting on way too many lucky breaks.

I don't think following normalized career trajectories for people like Rios, Alexei, Beckham and Quentin who should all be on the uptick is "counting on lucky breaks". They're not a toss of the coin, the odds are weighted towards success this year, even if there is a risk of them failing.

[chunk23]

I don't think following normalized career trajectories for people like Rios, Alexei, Beckham and Quentin who should all be on the uptick is "counting on lucky breaks". They're not a toss of the coin, the odds are weighted towards success this year, even if there is a risk of them failing.

 

Rios has been on the decline the past few years, and Quentin has been hurt every year. I would call hoping for both of those to reverse as counting on lucky breaks.

[The Ginger Kid]

the only reason I would've liked to see Damon signed was for his presence in the clubhouse. You lose a lot w/quality guys like Thome and JD.

[fathom]

the only reason I would've liked to see Damon signed was for his presence in the clubhouse. You lose a lot w/quality guys like Thome and JD.

 

I don't think Dye was a good clubhouse guy the past few seasons.

[The Ginger Kid]

I don't think Dye was a good clubhouse guy the past few seasons.

according to ozzie he most definitely was. And don't forget he was the guy who called out OCab on his s***.

 

But onward and upward - Jones reported to camp early along w/Gordon and to quote Merkin:

 

Back at SoxFest in late January, when Jones missed the event to make sure he stayed on his regular workout routine, rumors swirled that one of the most dynamic players in baseball from 1998-2006 would be reporting to Arizona in phenomenal physical condition. Those reports didn't really do Jones justice.

 

Through hard work and dedication from the beginning of November, the lean and powerful Jones looks somewhat like the rookie who announced his presence in Atlanta with three postseason home runs, including two in the 1996 World Series against the Yankees. And remember, Jones turns a mere 33 on April 23.

 

I'd love to see an outfield of Jones, Rios and Quentin with Pierre at DH and Kotsay being used just as he was last season, a role player off the bench.

 

[iamshack]

according to ozzie he most definitely was. And don't forget he was the guy who called out OCab on his s***.

 

But onward and upward - Jones reported to camp early along w/Gordon and to quote Merkin:

 

 

 

I'd love to see an outfield of Jones, Rios and Quentin with Pierre at DH and Kotsay being used just as he was last season, a role player off the bench.

 

That's great news....I'm one of the more excited fans about the acquisition of Jones, as I have been hoping Kenny would acquire him for some time now.

 

A semi-return to form by Jones could really go a long way to stabilizing our offense after the loss of Thome and Dye.

[fathom]

according to ozzie he most definitely was. And don't forget he was the guy who called out OCab on his s***.

 

Yep, and some of that stuff Cabrera was doing didn't deserve to be called out (ie: stealing 3rd with less than 2 outs). Dye's attitude after acquiring Rios last season was terrible, and you could see it on the field.

[justBLAZE]

Yep, and some of that stuff Cabrera was doing didn't deserve to be called out (ie: stealing 3rd with less than 2 outs). Dye's attitude after acquiring Rios last season was terrible, and you could see it on the field.

 

Agreed seems that Dye had the 'I own this clubhouse' attitude, and as much s*** as Cabrera got he was a gamer. Appreciate what Dye accomplished here tho.

[Soxfest]

If Sox really feel Damon is a difference maker and did not sign him because of budget restraints then that is a sad state of affairs.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Soxfest

[The Ginger Kid]

That's great news....I'm one of the more excited fans about the acquisition of Jones, as I have been hoping Kenny would acquire him for some time now.

 

A semi-return to form by Jones could really go a long way to stabilizing our offense after the loss of Thome and Dye.

I'm right there with you. 10 gold gloves in CF?? That's nuts. I'm excited. If his knee is genuinely recovered (one of his big problems when he added weight) then he and a rejuvenated Quentin could drive in a ton of runs.

 

[The Ginger Kid]

Yep, and some of that stuff Cabrera was doing didn't deserve to be called out (ie: stealing 3rd with less than 2 outs). Dye's attitude after acquiring Rios last season was terrible, and you could see it on the field.

Dude, seriously, you used to RIP cabrera in game threads. You were merciless. Now you're defending him? I'm selling, not buying.

[Real]

It's not over yet... KW will probably trade some prospects around AS break for a overpaid player after his experiment already failed.

Anybody want to place some money down on Flowers and Hudson being gone by July 31st I have been saying this all off-season, there's no way they are still with this organization when we're currently trying to win now

 

An A-Gon trade would be amazing but I'm guessing it'll be something a bit less stellar and would make some people here scratch their heads

[Ranger]

Rios has been on the decline the past few years, and Quentin has been hurt every year. I would call hoping for both of those to reverse as counting on lucky breaks.

 

Rios' decline really wasn't singificant until last season and I think it's even kind of misleading to say he's been on the decline for that long. The 3 years prior to that were still pretty good years, and for a player, and the first two of those years were comparable. OPS of .865 and .852 (in both seasons, he was still a deserving All Star) really aren't that different and in the .853 season, he missed exactly one game. It wasn't a "down" year. For a player under 30, it's kind of difficult for me to believe that there's some real actual trend that indicates it will continue. If he were 37, it would be a different story.

 

I still have a concern about him (only because of last year, the 3 years prior to that don't really scare me), but I seriously doubt he's going to be anything like he was last year. I'll be totally surprised if he is.

 

I don't think Dye was a good clubhouse guy the past few seasons.

 

 

His teammates liked him.

[fathom]

Dude, seriously, you used to RIP cabrera in game threads. You were merciless. Now you're defending him? I'm selling, not buying.

 

Not defending him, I just thought Dye was petty with his issues with Cabrera. When you combine that with the way he reacted when Rios came to town, you have to wonder how his presence in the clubhouse was last season.

[Balta1701]

His teammates liked him.

Sometimes the guy everyone likes is exactly what a team does not need.

[WCSox]

So then I'll roll this question, and I'm pretty sure of your answer.

 

You would hold on to Hudson, Flowers and Mitchell (although I would hope it would ONLY cost Jordan Danks) instead of trading them for two years of Adrian Gonzalez, yes?

 

I wouldn't deal both Hudson and Flowers. I'd probably package Hudson, Jordan Danks, and two other prospects. And I realize that it'll most likely won't be enough and that AGon is basically a pipe dream unless the big spenders fail to match what I'd be willing to deal.

 

If KW has demonstrated anything, he very rarely makes those "all or nothing moves" that are intended for winning it all one season but not being sustainable. You could certainly argue he's boxed in with the contracts of Buehrle, Konerko, Rios, Peavy, Linebrink, Jenks, etc.

 

I guess that Kenny's "boxed in" with all of those contracts for this year, but certainly not next year. PK is a FA next winter, and the Sox aren't obligated to give Jenks anything past this year. Mark's contract is a steal for a pitcher of his caliber, so Kenny could even get something in return for him if he wanted to risk the potential PR issues. Unless Peavy has more injury issues, I'm sure that Kenny could flip him if need be. Rios and Linebrink are the only guys who aren't moveable right now (and the former's status may change).

 

Agreed about the lack of sustainability, though. I'll say this: If the Sox play .500 ball through 2011, there's going to be a firesale. I'm pretty sure that Peavy, Rios, and any other veteran who will yield a couple of decent prospects are dealt at that point.

 

Replacing Dye with Pierre is a massive offensive downgrade.

 

I disagree. Dye has been wildly inconsistent over the past few years and he's getting worse, not better. His lows were so bad that his presence in the lineup hurt the team for several months in '07 and '09. Jayson Nix would've been a better option than the post-ASB Dye last year. I don't see Pierre's .290-.300 slap-hitting and 40+ stolen bases to be much of a downgrade over a rapidly-eroding JD.

Edited February 21, 2010 by WCSox

[macsandz]

Sometimes the guy everyone likes is exactly what a team does not need.

 

Nicely done ^.

 

The Sox clubhouse is notorious for being lax and chill. JD personified that. It's great when you need to stay loose. Not so much when you need a win in a statement game in MIN...

PK, Dye and even AJ have been so settled in the past few years when it comes to the clubhouse. That's not to say its always a bad thing, but they think they know when to roll their eyes

and tune Ozzie out. I like that there is so much new blood these days. Guys with something to prove like Pierre, Rios, Jones and Teahen.

[macsandz]

I wouldn't deal both Hudson and Flowers. I'd probably package Hudson, Jordan Danks, and two other prospects. And I realize that it'll most likely won't be enough and that AGon is basically a pipe dream unless the big spenders fail to match what I'd be willing to deal.

 

 

 

I guess that Kenny's "boxed in" with all of those contracts for this year, but certainly not next year. PK is a FA next winter, and the Sox aren't obligated to give Jenks anything past this year. Mark's contract is a steal for a pitcher of his caliber, so Kenny could even get something in return for him if he wanted to risk the potential PR issues. Unless Peavy has more injury issues, I'm sure that Kenny could flip him if need be. Rios and Linebrink are the only guys who aren't moveable right now (and the former's status may change).

 

Agreed about the lack of sustainability, though. I'll say this: If the Sox play .500 ball through 2011, there's going to be a firesale. I'm pretty sure that Peavy, Rios, and any other veteran who will yield a couple of decent prospects are dealt at that point.

 

 

 

I disagree. Dye has been wildly inconsistent over the past few years and he's getting worse, not better. His lows were so bad that his presence in the lineup hurt the team for several months in '07 and '09. Jayson Nix would've been a better option than the post-ASB Dye last year. I don't see Pierre's .290-.300 slap-hitting and 40+ stolen bases to be much of a downgrade over a rapidly-eroding JD.

 

 

Agreed. Pierre is a totally different player and he's better at what he does these days than Dye is.

To an earlier point, Pierre isn't replacing Dye, Quentin is.