Tigers Sign Damon - 1 yr, 8 mil; NTC

[Balta1701]

Good God can you imagine if the Sox had an off season like that? This place is ready to burn to the ground after a fraction of that.

I'm trying to figure out an adequate comparison. Let's imagine that 2 years go by, we trade Beckham off for prospects because he's getting expensive after 2 straight times starting the all-star game with his $4 million contract, and we offer, I dunno, Jeter a $10 million deal.

[Ranger]

It's clear we drove the price way up on Detroit. I wouldnt be surprised if we knew what we were doing all along.

 

Not to say we didnt want Damon, but just that we had some desire to mess with Detroit's future budget, knowing they needed a leadoff way too badly right now.

 

Maybe. But I think more that the Sox really did want to sing him and thought they'd have a decent chance of him doing it for a reasonable price...the byproduct is the Tigers paid more than they should have. I think they didn't feel desperate to sign him so were dealing form a position of strength. I mean, the guy signed the day before spring training. It's not like clubs were beating down his door.

[daa84]

http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/...on-my-team.html

 

 

GLENDALE, Ariz. -- White Sox pitcher Jake Peavy tipped his cap to the rival Detroit Tigers for their acquisition of left-handed hitting free agent Johnny Damon.

 

''I wanted him on my team,'' Peavy said Sunday morning. "Johnny Damon is a winner."

 

Damon selected Detroit over the White Sox, who withdrew their offer after electing not to move much closer to the reported one-year, $8 million contract Damon accepted from the Tigers.

 

''He makes Detroit quite a bit better,'' said Peavy, adding that Damon will strengthen a lineup that features Miguel Cabrera, Magglio Ordonez and Carlos Guillen.

[chw42]

Rios has been on the decline the past few years, and Quentin has been hurt every year. I would call hoping for both of those to reverse as counting on lucky breaks.

 

Rios had his best season in 2008, not in terms of home runs or anything, but he stole 32 bases, hit nearly 50 doubles, and played great defense in center field when Vernon Wells got hurt. He was worth 5.6 WAR in 2008, which was good enough for 3rd among all CF behind Beltran and Sizemore.

 

The perception that Rios has been in decline ever since 2007 is flat out wrong. He was actually progressing until last season.

Edited February 21, 2010 by chw42

[iamshack]

Shack, the difference is the deferred money. You're more perceptive than that.

Honestly, and I am not trying to nitpick here, I just don't find the deferred money to be that big of a deal. We're talking about a pretty sophisticated corporation asking a player to accept terms which are fairly uncharacteristic in this industry. Certainly, the concept of deferred money is not necessarily uncommon, but the idea of a 1 year, seven figure deal involving deferred compensation is fairly uncommon.

 

I think this had more to do with principles than compensation.

 

If it was really about $2 million we needed to defer somehow, I would have hoped that one of our veterans would have been willing to restructure for the sake of winning.

[iamshack]

It doesn't matter if it's customary or not, that's completely beside the point. The point is that spending around 4.5 on Damon this season is a lot different than spending 8 this season

Really?

 

In the grand scheme of things, I respectfully disagree.

 

This was a matter of principle, not finances.

[Balta1701]

If it was really about $2 million we needed to defer somehow, I would have hoped that one of our veterans would have been willing to restructure for the sake of winning.

That never happens in baseball.

[iamshack]

That never happens in baseball.

No? Chipper Jones.

[Balta1701]

No? Chipper Jones.

That was the public story. If you actually read what Jones did...he got more total money in the deal because the Braves guaranteed what was an option year and added in an additional vesting option year, and in exchange he took a smaller salary in a couple of years earlier in the deal. He got more total money out of it.

[Ranger]

Rios had his best season in 2008, not in terms of home runs or anything, but he stole 32 bases, hit nearly 50 doubles, and played great defense in center field when Vernon Wells got hurt. He was worth nearly 5.6 WAR in 2008, which was good enough for 3rd among all OF behind Beltran and Sizemore.

 

The perception that Rios has been in decline ever since 2007 is flat out wrong. He was actually progressing until last season.

 

Right. Like I said earlier, the "decline" is misleading. It's like saying Pujols was on the decline from 2003 to 2005 because his OBP went from 1.106 to 1.072 to 1.039. Technically, that's a decline. But, obviously, it's really not. Wouldn't a lot of people here like to have Curtis Granderson? Well, he's also been on an OPS "decline" the last 3 seasons (and actually, it's been a much more serious decline than what Rios has had) but I wouldn't consider him to be a player that's getting worse. I'd be glad to have him. Melky Cabrera had a similar 3-year downward trend, but that doesn't mean bigger picture issues.

 

For somebody that just turned 29 three days ago, I consider 2009 to be anomalous, and the 3 years before that are not even a problem for me because they were still good years.

[chw42]

Right. Like I said earlier, the "decline" is misleading. It's like saying Pujols was on the decline from 2003 to 2005 because his OBP went from 1.106 to 1.072 to 1.039. Technically, that's a decline. But, obviously, it's really not. Wouldn't a lot of people here like to have Curtis Granderson? Well, he's also been on an OPS "decline" the last 3 seasons (and actually, it's been a much more serious decline than what Rios has had) but I wouldn't consider him to be a player that's getting worse. I'd be glad to have him. Melky Cabrera had a similar 3-year downward trend, but that doesn't mean bigger picture issues.

 

For somebody that just turned 29 three days ago, I consider 2009 to be anomalous, and the 3 years before that are not even a problem for me because they were still good years.

 

I keep hearing that the Tigers were smart to trade Granderson because he had already peaked. The guy's still in his prime, what are they even talking about? Just because he had one bad season doesn't mean he's done for.

 

The Tigers look really stupid right now since they gave $15 million this season to Valverde and Damon instead of shelling out maybe $10 million to Jackson and Granderson, two younger and better players.

[iamshack]

That was the public story. If you actually read what Jones did...he got more total money in the deal because the Braves guaranteed what was an option year and added in an additional vesting option year, and in exchange he took a smaller salary in a couple of years earlier in the deal. He got more total money out of it.

And we couldn't do this because?

[chw42]

And we couldn't do this because?

Because we don't have that many long-term contracts. Outside of Peavy, Buehrle, and Rios, we don't have any lengthy contracts. And Buehrle's contract isn't even that long. He's going to be a FA at the end of 2011.

 

I doubt you're going to get Peavy and Rios to do anything to their contract since they've only been here for a short time. Doing anything with Buehrle might not even be worthwhile.

Edited February 21, 2010 by chw42

[Ranger]

Honestly, and I am not trying to nitpick here, I just don't find the deferred money to be that big of a deal. We're talking about a pretty sophisticated corporation asking a player to accept terms which are fairly uncharacteristic in this industry. Certainly, the concept of deferred money is not necessarily uncommon, but the idea of a 1 year, seven figure deal involving deferred compensation is fairly uncommon.

 

I think this had more to do with principles than compensation.

 

If it was really about $2 million we needed to defer somehow, I would have hoped that one of our veterans would have been willing to restructure for the sake of winning.

 

Really?

 

In the grand scheme of things, I respectfully disagree.

 

This was a matter of principle, not finances.

 

Well, sure. You're in the fortunate position on not having to think that extra $3-4 million on one player is a "big deal" when you aren't the one that's working within the budget on a single season. Yes, it does matter. The deferred money makes a difference within this baseball season on this payroll. Paying nearly double for a single player is a big deal, dude. Unless you can find a way to spread that money out over the next season or so.

 

And you're not serious about one of the veterans restructuring, are you? How many guys do you think would be willing to come forward to volunteer that? And on what planet would a MLB general manager go to one of his vets' agents and say, "hey, we want to re-work your client's deal so we can sign Johnny Damon."? And what agent would say, "yeah, sure, no problem!"? Even if they were to try something liek that, it won't happen for a 36-year old Damon. This isn't Pujols we're talking about.

[Ranger]

And we couldn't do this because?

 

Because 1) you don't know that Boras was willing to take anything but a guarantee of a certain amount of cash for this year (which was obviously the case), and 2) they maybe don't want to potentially be on the hook for Damon for another season after his one. He is 36, afterall.

[Dick Allen]

Right. Like I said earlier, the "decline" is misleading. It's like saying Pujols was on the decline from 2003 to 2005 because his OBP went from 1.106 to 1.072 to 1.039. Technically, that's a decline. But, obviously, it's really not. Wouldn't a lot of people here like to have Curtis Granderson? Well, he's also been on an OPS "decline" the last 3 seasons (and actually, it's been a much more serious decline than what Rios has had) but I wouldn't consider him to be a player that's getting worse. I'd be glad to have him. Melky Cabrera had a similar 3-year downward trend, but that doesn't mean bigger picture issues.

 

For somebody that just turned 29 three days ago, I consider 2009 to be anomalous, and the 3 years before that are not even a problem for me because they were still good years.

What about what scouts say about his decline? I just received my BP yesterday. Here's their little write up on Rios:

 

As surprising as the Jake Peavy trade was, Kenny Williams' claiming Rios in August wins the award for the most shocking transaction of 2009. With Williams hoping the talented outfielder simply needed a change of scenery to get things going again, Rios responded by not even getting his batting average above the Mendoza line, and the club is stuck with him for six more years at a cost of more than $80 million. (I believe they are off $20 million but it may be an option) Rios is young enought to figure things out again, but he most galling aspect of his performance might not be the stat line; it's the gaggle of scouts who see a player who just doesn't give a damn.

 

I don't know if that really is true or not. Not the scouts feelings, I know that is true, but whether he really does give a damn. One other thing I heard on MLB Network about Rios with the White Sox in 2009, in 150+ plate appearances, he only hit 12 balls hard in play.

 

Pecota has him at 34 2B 4 3B 20 homers .274 AVG. 339 OBP

Edited February 21, 2010 by Dick Allen

[iamshack]

Well, sure. You're in the fortunate position on not having to think that extra $3-4 million on one player is a "big deal" when you aren't the one that's working within the budget on a single season. Yes, it does matter. The deferred money makes a difference within this baseball season on this payroll. Paying nearly double for a single player is a big deal, dude. Unless you can find a way to spread that money out over the next season or so.

 

And you're not serious about one of the veterans restructuring, are you? How many guys do you think would be willing to come forward to volunteer that? And on what planet would a MLB general manager go to one of his vets' agents and say, "hey, we want to re-work your client's deal so we can sign Johnny Damon."? And what agent would say, "yeah, sure, no problem!"? Even if they were to try something liek that, it won't happen for a 36-year old Damon. This isn't Pujols we're talking about.

Jake Peavy just came out and stated that he wanted Johnny Damon on his team because he is a winner.

 

My guess is if Kenny went to Jake and asked him to defer $2-3 million from his salary this year over the next three years, he would have been cool with it.

 

Obviously you can sit here and argue against it because it is unknown.

 

But the guy comes out in the press and says he wanted the player, well, then my guess is he would put his money where his mouth is.

[chw42]

What about what scouts say about his decline? I just received my BP yesterday. Here's their little write up on Rios:

 

As surprising as the Jake Peavy trade was, Kenny Williams' claiming Rios in August wins the award for the most shocking transaction of 2009. With Williams hoping the talented outfielder simply needed a change of scenery to get things going again, Rios responded by not even getting his batting average above the Mendoza line, and the club is stuck with him for six more years at a cost of more than $80 million. (I believe they are off $20 million but it may be an option) Rios is young enought to figure things out again, but he most galling aspect of his performance might not be the stat line; it's the gaggle of scouts who see a player who just doesn't give a damn.

 

I don't know if that really is true or not. Not the scouts feelings, I know that is true, but whether he really does give a damn. One other thing I heard on MLB Network about Rios with the White Sox in 2009, in 150+ plate appearances, he only hit 12 balls hard in play.

 

Pecota has him at 34 2B 4 3B 20 homers .274 AVG. 339 OBP

 

You can change attitude, you can't change talent. If Rios still has it, it's more than likely that he can bounce back in full stride.

 

All the projection systems have him as a 2 WAR player, I think he's capable of that.

[Linnwood]

The final word on Damon

By Joe Cowley on February 21, 2010 3:44 PM

 

GLENDALE, Ariz. - After losing out to Detroit in the Miguel Cabrera sweepstakes back in the 2007 Winter Meetings, a defiant Ken Williams insisted, "All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us.''

On Sunday, with the Sox missing out on free agent Johnny Damon to Detroit, it was a much calmer general manager reacting to it.

 

"Well, I think you see he did very well for himself,'' Williams said of the reported deal the outfielder received. "He gets to train in Florida and that's where he wanted to be. Had we got into it a little bit earlier and I known that was really an overriding factor then maybe we could have considered moving camp out to Orlando and set up shop to accommodate him. It was a little too late for that. We had everyone here.''

 

Asked if Damon now put the Tigers in better position to contend, Williams wasn't biting.

"Uh, if I acknowledge that, that means I felt we were above them anyway,'' Williams said on Day 1 of camp. "It's a little disrespectful. We are positioned very well. Would we have been better? Perhaps. But some times, one of the things I've learned over the years, some times the things you don't do or aren't able to do turn out to be your better decisions.''

Williams maintained that he is fine with the Ozzie Guillen plan of DH-by-committee, despite his actions dictating otherwise, and asked about the idea that former Sox World Series MVP Jermaine Dye was still sitting out on the free agent market, totally didn't close the door on it.

 

"I am shocked that Jermaine Dye is still out there,'' Williams said. "I thought about [bringing him back]. But our biggest need would be a left-handed bat, in my opinion. That doesn't fit or is consistent with what Ozzie wants to do. I did think about it, and Ozzie would be in a position where he would have to play him.''

 

http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2010/02...d_on_damon.html

 

Maybe this was discussed else where, but don't feel like wading through 133 pages to find it: was Spring Training location a serious part of why Damon went to the Tigers? Or am I missing sarcasm?

 

 

[iamshack]

Maybe this was discussed else where, but don't feel like wading through 133 pages to find it: was Spring Training location a serious part of why Damon went to the Tigers? Or am I missing sarcasm?

No, it evidently was a factor. It appears that KW is being a bit sarcastic in emphasizing that he doesn't know if the White Sox ever really had a chance to make this happen - that maybe they were being used by Boras simply to drive up a sweeter deal with Detroit.

[Vote4Pedro]

well hopefully andruw jones has a bounce back year and can lock down that DH position so we don't have to see too many kotsay AB's

[WCSox]

You can change attitude, you can't change talent. If Rios still has it, it's more than likely that he can bounce back in full stride.

 

Maybe and maybe not. He could very well go the way that Antonio Freeman did after the Packers gave him a huge contract.

 

I hope that the better clubhouse adjusts his allegedly bad attitude. Last year didn't show much evidence of him going in that direction.

 

[Balta1701]

Maybe and maybe not. He could very well go the way that Antonio Freeman did after the Packers gave him a huge contract.

 

I hope that the better clubhouse adjusts his allegedly bad attitude. Last year didn't show much evidence of him going in that direction.

A CF with a bad attitude? If he doesn't turn that around quick, he'll never, ever, ever play.

[bmags]

A CF with a bad attitude? If he doesn't turn that around quick, he'll never, ever, ever play.

 

plz tell me he isn't communist

[WCSox]

A CF with a bad attitude? If he doesn't turn that around quick, he'll never, ever, ever play.

 

I'm pretty sure his contact ensures that he'll play.