Y2HH Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 13, 2012 -> 01:40 PM) Hey buddy, I saw the temporary propaganda exhibit at the Holocaust museum recently, I'm an expert. Seriously though, it was really fascinating (we happened to get in as part of a guided tour) and detailed how effective it really was. I'm not passing moral judgement on all German people here--hell I'm part German!--but giving an example of how an Afghani may not see the situation from the same perspective or with the same information as someone from the US. edit: anti-semitism has been pretty wide-spread for centuries if not millenia and not at the end of a gun. The Nazis just stoked those prejudices to new levels. Well, to be a fair minded individual, this is a very good point and I wasn't really considering it. As for the anti-semitism in that Germany, my father is from that Germany, and my grandfather was in Hitlers military under Rahmel. They weren't given much of a choice about that propaganda. You believed it openly and outwardly, even if you didn't, because the alternative was death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jan 13, 2012 -> 02:48 PM) under Rahmel. Um, Rommel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jan 13, 2012 -> 01:48 PM) Well, to be a fair minded individual, this is a very good point and I wasn't really considering it. As for the anti-semitism in that Germany, my father is from that Germany, and my grandfather was in Hitlers military under Rahmel. They weren't given much of a choice about that propaganda. You believed it openly and outwardly, even if you didn't, because the alternative was death. That is awesome, and it needs to catch on around Chicago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 13, 2012 -> 02:55 PM) That is awesome, and it needs to catch on around Chicago. Ah, now me gets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 13, 2012 -> 01:52 PM) Um, Rommel? Yes, that Rommel, but spelling it the way I did is and always will be funnier in light of where we live. Edited January 13, 2012 by Y2HH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jan 13, 2012 -> 01:48 PM) Well, to be a fair minded individual, this is a very good point and I wasn't really considering it. That's why I was bringing up those hypotheticals! Without at least trying to understand a situation from a radically different perspective, it's impossible to be conclusive statements. Granted, my cobbled-together view of "what an Afghan might think" is probably highly flawed at best. But even that realization helps grant further understanding of at least where your knowledge is lacking or your own blindspots may lie. I'll return the favor and say that hysteria of "OMG! this will get hundreds of US soldiers killed!" is overblown, but I still strongly maintain that this will have a negative impact and this will put US soldiers in increased danger. Really, if you get a chance read that CNAS paper. It's really interesting stuff. As for the anti-semitism in that Germany, my father is from that Germany, and my grandfather was in Hitlers military under Rahmel. They weren't given much of a choice about that propaganda. You believed it openly and outwardly, even if you didn't, because the alternative was death. It wasn't universal for sure, but antisemitism didn't start in 1930's Germany. It's precisely because so many people were antisemitic or at least indifferent to antisemitism that their propaganda was so effective and why the rest of Europe didn't really care until Hitler started invading countries. And even then, they still didn't really care about the Jews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jan 13, 2012 -> 03:06 PM) Yes, that Rommel, but spelling it the way I did is and always will be funnier in light of where we live. I figured it had to be some Germanic version of spelling his name that I didn't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 "Rahmel" is pretty clever. Rommel's usually regarded as a pretty decent commander from a humanitarian perspective, isn't he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 13, 2012 -> 03:10 PM) "Rahmel" is pretty clever. Rommel's usually regarded as a pretty decent commander from a humanitarian perspective, isn't he? He's a very conflicted figure historically. He was clearly content to allow the regime to make a propaganda tool out of him and bask in the glory when things were going well, but then also hesitatingly gave his support to the '44 plot to kill Hitler after things turned poorly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 13, 2012 -> 02:12 PM) He's a very conflicted figure historically. He was clearly content to allow the regime to make a propaganda tool out of him and bask in the glory when things were going well, but then also hesitatingly gave his support to the '44 plot to kill Hitler after things turned poorly. Well "pretty decent" relative to the rest of the Nazis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 13, 2012 -> 03:13 PM) Well "pretty decent" relative to the rest of the Nazis. Well, he didn't personally kill thousands of jews, but he also was a major enabler of that happening, and he was at some level similarly willing to turn a blind eye to that part of the regime as long as they were winning battles. So yeah, you're right on that statement, but let's not mistake that for meaning he's a good guy. He's at best an accessory to some of the worst crimes in history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkey Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 13, 2012 -> 01:29 PM) I want to highlight something from that CNAS paper that highlights just how important local relations are: And are those same farmers going to stop chasing the Taliban away now because 4 soldiers pissed on a Taliban corpse? Hell, they might even join the soldiers in pissing on the bodies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Then again, maybe the reason the soliders pissed on the bodies was because of 9/11... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkey Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 13, 2012 -> 03:24 PM) Then again, maybe the reason the soliders pissed on the bodies was because of 9/11... Touche'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 QUOTE (Alpha Dog @ Jan 13, 2012 -> 03:14 PM) And are those same farmers going to stop chasing the Taliban away now because 4 soldiers pissed on a Taliban corpse? Hell, they might even join the soldiers in pissing on the bodies. Maybe, maybe not. What about someone who's on the margins of helping the US? More, less or just-as likely to help after hearing that US soldiers desecrate corpses of their enemies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 13, 2012 -> 03:24 PM) Then again, maybe the reason the soliders pissed on the bodies was because of 9/11... Maybe. Still a disgraceful thing to do, and monumentally dumb to film it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Time to point this out. This has been a really bad, self-inflicted week for the US in Afghanistan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Again, this doesn't seem good. A U.S. service member shot dead at least 15 members of two Afghan families as well as a 16th person before turning himself in, officials said Sunday. U.S. officials said the soldier was a staff sergeant. Some witnesses said more than one soldier was involved, but Afghan President Hamid Karzai in a statement cited only one shooter in what he called "an assassination," adding that nine of the dead were children, and three were women. The detained soldier, who has yet to be identified, reportedly left his base in the early hours Sunday and went to two villages just a few hundred yards away. He then opened fire on Afghan civilians sleeping in their homes, Minister of Border and Tribal Affairs Asadullah Khalid told Reuters. The service member entered three homes in the villages in Kandahar province, he said. Twelve of the dead were from Balandi, said Samad Khan, adding that 11 were from his family, including women and children. Khan was away from the village when the incident occurred. One of his neighbors was also killed, he said. "This is an anti-human and anti-Islamic act," said Khan. "Nobody is allowed in any religion in the world to kill children and women." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 (edited) Maybe this will give Obama the cover he needs (just like the famous incident in Somalia depicted in Black Hawk Down) to get the heck out of Dodge. Obviously, it's reprehensible what happened, but continuing this war through 2013 or 2014 just serves no purpose and continues to drain the Treasury. About the only positive is that having some of our troops deployed there has to remind SOME of the war-mongers not to jump into yet another idiotic war with Iran. Of course, despite the Obama administration taking out bin Laden on his watch, they'll instantly be declared "quitters" or "weak on foreign policy" if we withdraw, which will be infuriating. Edited March 11, 2012 by caulfield12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Mar 11, 2012 -> 02:53 PM) Maybe this will give Obama the cover he needs (just like the famous incident in Somalia depicted in Black Hawk Down) to get the heck out of Dodge. Obviously, it's reprehensible what happened, but continuing this war through 2013 or 2014 just serves no purpose and continues to drain the Treasury. About the only positive is that having some of our troops deployed there has to remind SOME of the war-mongers not to jump into yet another idiotic war with Iran. Of course, despite the Obama administration taking out bin Laden on his watch, they'll instantly be declared "quitters" or "weak on foreign policy" if we withdraw, which will be infuriating. The cover he needs to to get the heck out of Dodge? Part of our current withdraw from Iraq was in moving more soldiers BACK into Afghanistan. The sooner you stop pretending this is still Bush's war the better. It's nearly 4 years later now. Edited March 11, 2012 by Y2HH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_genius Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Mar 11, 2012 -> 01:53 PM) Maybe this will give Obama the cover he needs (just like the famous incident in Somalia depicted in Black Hawk Down) to get the heck out of Dodge. Obviously, it's reprehensible what happened, but continuing this war through 2013 or 2014 just serves no purpose and continues to drain the Treasury. About the only positive is that having some of our troops deployed there has to remind SOME of the war-mongers not to jump into yet another idiotic war with Iran. Of course, despite the Obama administration taking out bin Laden on his watch, they'll instantly be declared "quitters" or "weak on foreign policy" if we withdraw, which will be infuriating. This is Obama's war. He can end it at any time. He wants it to continue unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_genius Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 25, 2012 -> 05:54 PM) Time to point this out. This has been a really bad, self-inflicted week for the US in Afghanistan. What, over the stupid 'Quran' burning thing? So therefore those murders were 'self-inflicted' ? Edited March 12, 2012 by mr_genius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_genius Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 11, 2012 -> 01:43 PM) Again, this doesn't seem good. Someone burned one of his books, so his actions were totally justified. It's Afghanistan's fault. They should have been more culturally sensitive. Edited March 12, 2012 by mr_genius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeNukeEm Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Someone burned one of his books, so his actions were totally justified. It's Afghanistan's fault. They should have been more culturally sensitive. This is beautiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeNukeEm Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 (edited) "Rahmel" is pretty clever. Rommel's usually regarded as a pretty decent commander from a humanitarian perspective, isn't he? He treated POW's really well, but Nazi Germany in general treated Western POW's very well and all Rommel fought was the Western Allies. That's about it, other than that he was about par for the Nazi course. He loved fascism and didn't raise any real qualms with the whole slaughtering and dehumanizing Jews thing until after it became clear the Allies had it in the bag. The only reason people like to claim he was "The Good Nazi" is because he was pretty much a goddamned military genius, and taking the brightest minds in Nazi Germany and making it seem like they never bought into Hitler fuels the NEVER AGAIN script we've all heard way too much. Edited March 12, 2012 by DukeNukeEm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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