Franklin Gutierrez

[Jordan4life_2007]

I just got the latest SI in the mail. Very good piece about the 'new' overall emphasis on defense, with the Mariners (rightfully so) as the centerpiece of the article. Now I knew Franklin Gutierrez was gifted defensively. I knew it before last year. But he might be the best defensive CF I've ever seen. I've been watching a lot of clips from Mariners.com, and this dude literally gets to EVERYTHING. In the SI piece, his nickname is supposedly "Death to all things flying." And that's no hyperbole. Say what you want about how unreliable defensive metrics are, but it's no coincidence that he's literally at the top, not just at his position, of every metric out there. Fangraphs, Hardball Times, Baseball Prospectus, Tom Tango, Bible Awards, ect. I will never give the Gold Glove award any credence ever again. How the hell does that happen? That he does not win one? Pathetic!!!!!

[chw42]

I just got the latest SI in the mail. Very good piece about the 'new' overall emphasis on defense, with the Mariners (rightfully so) as the centerpiece of the article. Now I knew Franklin Gutierrez was gifted defensively. I knew it before last year. But he might be the best defensive CF I've ever seen. I've been watching a lot of clips from Mariners.com, and this dude literally gets to EVERYTHING. In the SI piece, his nickname is supposedly "Death to all things flying." And that's no hyperbole. Say what you want about how unreliable defensive metrics are, but it's no coincidence that he's literally at the top, not just at his position, of every metric out there. Fangraphs, Hardball Times, Baseball Prospectus, Tom Tango, Bible Awards, ect. I will never give the Gold Glove award any credence ever again. How the hell does that happen? That he does not win one? Pathetic!!!!!

 

Adam Jones won one last year. He's a nice defender, but Gutierrez is leagues better.

 

Seriously, Franklin saved 30 runs for that pitching staff last year. If it wasn't for his defense, the Mariners might have only won 81-82 games. It's amazing how one player can affect so much on defense alone.

 

Once all the old farts who vote for these awards retire, sabermetrics will be more commonly used for these awards. Until then, the gold glove is nothing.

Edited February 25, 2010 by chw42

[scenario]

And who did Cleveland get in return for him?

 

Luis Valbuena and Joe Smith

 

Not one of Mark Shapiro's finer moments.

Edited February 25, 2010 by scenario

[chw42]

And who did Cleveland get in return for him?

 

Luis Valbuena and Joe Smith

 

Not one of Mark Shapiro's finer moments.

 

That might end up being one of the best trades in Seattle history.

[scenario]

That might end up being one of the best trades in Seattle history.

 

It was a 12-player 3-team deal with the Mariners, Tribe, and Mets.

 

The Indians were the small player in the trade getting Valbuena from Seattle and Smith from the Mets.

 

Here's the summary...

 

December 11, 2008: Franklin Gutierrez was traded as part of a 3-team trade by the Cleveland Indians to the Seattle Mariners. The Seattle Mariners sent Sean Green, J.J. Putz and Jeremy Reed to the New York Mets. The Seattle Mariners sent Luis Valbuena to the Cleveland Indians. The New York Mets sent Ezequiel Carrera (minors), Maikel Cleto (minors), Mike Carp, Endy Chavez, Aaron Heilman and Jason Vargas to the Seattle Mariners. The New York Mets sent Joe Smith to the Cleveland Indians.

Edited February 25, 2010 by scenario

[chw42]

It was a 12-player 3-team deal with the Mariners, Tribe, and Mets.

 

The Indians were the small player in the trade getting Valbuena from Seattle and Smith from the Mets.

 

Here's the summary...

 

December 11, 2008: Franklin Gutierrez was traded as part of a 3-team trade by the Cleveland Indians to the Seattle Mariners. The Seattle Mariners sent Sean Green, J.J. Putz and Jeremy Reed to the New York Mets. The Seattle Mariners sent Luis Valbuena to the Cleveland Indians. The New York Mets sent Ezequiel Carrera (minors), Maikel Cleto (minors), Mike Carp, Endy Chavez, Aaron Heilman and Jason Vargas to the Seattle Mariners. The New York Mets sent Joe Smith to the Cleveland Indians.

 

Joe Smith for Gutierrez, that's pretty funny.

[iamshack]

SI actually ran an article before last season on the Mariner's emphasis on defense as well. I remember thinking, damn, I should be the over on the M's, as the number was only 74-75 or so.

 

Nice to see a follow-up piece.

 

I believe that article actually called out the reason for the Rays success in 08', which was defense and not so much pitching, as everyone was claiming. Also accurately predicted a fall-off by them in 09'.

[chw42]

SI actually ran an article before last season on the Mariner's emphasis on defense as well. I remember thinking, damn, I should be the over on the M's, as the number was only 74-75 or so.

 

Nice to see a follow-up piece.

 

I believe that article actually called out the reason for the Rays success in 08', which was defense and not so much pitching, as everyone was claiming. Also accurately predicted a fall-off by them in 09'.

 

It was their bullpen that really served them well in 08.

 

The defense this past year was still very good with a full year of Crawford, Upton, and Gross/Kapler/Zobrist in the OF. Zobrist also played a great 2B. Bartlett had an off year and Longoria had a great year. Pena was below average though.

 

So I think it's their bullpen that let them down last year. Balfour wasn't as good, Wheeler didn't repeat 08. Howell had a decent year though.

[iamshack]

It was their bullpen that really served them well in 08.

 

The defense this past year was still very good with a full year of Crawford, Upton, and Gross/Kapler/Zobrist in the OF. Zobrist also played a great 2B. Bartlett had an off year and Longoria had a great year. Pena was below average though.

 

So I think it's their bullpen that let them down last year. Balfour wasn't as good, Wheeler didn't repeat 08. Howell had a decent year though.

SI pointed out that their staff was basically the same in 08' than it had been the year before, however. I'd have to review the article, but I am pretty certain it argued it wasn't the bullpen at all, but rather, the defense.

[Jordan4life_2007]

It was their bullpen that really served them well in 08.

 

The defense this past year was still very good with a full year of Crawford, Upton, and Gross/Kapler/Zobrist in the OF. Zobrist also played a great 2B. Bartlett had an off year and Longoria had a great year. Pena was below average though.

 

So I think it's their bullpen that let them down last year. Balfour wasn't as good, Wheeler didn't repeat 08. Howell had a decent year though.

 

I have to agree with this. They were second in baseball in overall UZR. Baseball Prospectus has them 8th in overall team defensive efficiency. I don't like relying so heavily on defensive metrics. But it's not like I watch a whole lot of Rays games. They were a lot like the '05 White Sox and '06 Tigers. Lots of guys having career years at the same time. And of course it doesn't help that they've got to deal with NY and Boston.

[Felix]

I will never give the Gold Glove award any credence ever again. How the hell does that happen? That he does not win one? Pathetic!!!!!

It's pretty bad, that's for sure. Almost as bad as Rafael Palmeiro winning a gold glove at 1B despite starting 151 games at DH.

 

Nice to see the Mariners getting more press. I've been on their bandwagon since last year, and it's nice to see them get some press for the team they've put together. Jack Z is awesome.

Edited February 26, 2010 by Felix

[Balta1701]

SI pointed out that their staff was basically the same in 08' than it had been the year before, however. I'd have to review the article, but I am pretty certain it argued it wasn't the bullpen at all, but rather, the defense.

Their starters ERA was 4.54 last year and 3.95 in 2009. That's considered the same?

[iamshack]

Their starters ERA was 4.54 last year and 3.95 in 2009. That's considered the same?

Balta...I assume you mean 3.95 in 08'. I am saying the actual pitchers were the same.

 

Secondly, you cannot forsee a situation wherein a worse defense would cause the same pitchers' ERA's to increase?

 

Edit: So as you can see in my post below, I was a bit off in my memory - SI did not predict the demise of the Rays in 09'; rather they explained their rise in 08'. However, the point remains the same. It wasn't their pitching that improved - it was their defense.

Edited February 26, 2010 by iamshack

[iamshack]

From the article I was referring to:

 

SI Vault

 

Zduriencik, the old-school scout, and Blengino, the numbers guy who keeps a copy of The Fielding Bible on his desk and can recite Revised Zone Rating stats of players off the top of his head, come from "pretty much the opposite ends of the spectrum," Zduriencik says. But this winter they were in agreement on how to turn the worst team in the league in '08 into a winner in the shortest amount of time. They would follow the blueprint of the worst-to-first '08 Rays: Focus on improving the defense.

 

"Last year Tampa scored 10 fewer runs than they did the year before," says Blengino. "Seventy percent of the innings pitched in 2008 were from the guys who pitched the year before. And yet they gave up 273 fewer runs. It wasn't the hitting. It wasn't the pitching. It was the defense."

 

Tampa's improvement—from the worst team in defensive efficiency in 2006 and '07 to the best last year—was the result of the front office's calculated effort, after the '07 season, to catch the ball better. They replaced the shortstop combo of Brendan Harris (-10.5 career UZR, meaning he cost his team nearly 11 runs) and Ben Zobrist (-7.5 career UZR) with Jason Bartlett (34.7 career UZR). They moved Akinori Iwamura from third to second (where his UZR was 1.3 runs higher) to accommodate the call-up of Evan Longoria (14.9 UZR), and they dumped Johnny Gomes (-16.9 career UZR) and Delmon Young (-18.1 career UZR) from the outfield. "People saw the drop in our pitchers' ERAs, and [the pitchers] did a great job," says Friedman, "but a lot of credit goes to the runs the defense saved. Based on our internal numbers, a lot of credit."

 

"If, for example, you can put together three defensive superstars in the outfield, that's an opportunity to save a lot of runs," says Blengino. "You can win with run prevention as easily as [with] runs scoring."

[Balta1701]

Balta...I assume you mean 3.95 in 08'. I am saying the actual pitchers were the same.

 

Secondly, you cannot forsee a situation wherein a worse defense would cause the same pitchers' ERA's to increase?

Well, first of all, no they weren't, Edwin Jackson was gone. Ditto 1/2 a season of Kazmir.

 

Secondly, the difference in their starters was about 65 runs. That seems like an awful lot of defensive downgrade to come up with that.

 

The pitchers for the Sox were pretty much the same between 05 and 06. Maybe even better in 06 on paper. How would we compare those 2 staffs?

[Balta1701]

From the article I was referring to:

 

SI Vault

That's comparing 07-08, I was talking 08 to 09.

[Balta1701]

Edit: So as you can see in my post below, I was a bit off in my memory - SI did not predict the demise of the Rays in 09'; rather they explained their rise in 08'. However, the point remains the same. It wasn't their pitching that improved - it was their defense.

So you're crediting a 273 run improvement in runs given up solely to the defense, and attributing zero of that improvement to the pitching staff?

[iamshack]

That's comparing 07-08, I was talking 08 to 09.

Yeah, I know, it was my mistake; see my edit in my post above.

 

The point remains the same, however. It was not the Rays bullpen that improved; it was the defense behind them.

[iamshack]

So you're crediting a 273 run improvement in runs given up solely to the defense, and attributing zero of that improvement to the pitching staff?

No. I am crediting the lion's share to the defense.

Obviously, neither you nor I can pinpoint the difference precisely.

[Balta1701]

Yeah, I know, it was my mistake; see my edit in my post above.

 

The point remains the same, however. It was not the Rays bullpen that improved; it was the defense behind them.

Personally, I'd argue it was much more likely that both improved, but I'll leave it at that.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

The coolest part of the article was the stat that stated "A great defense can shave a half a run (0.50) off the starter's ERA."

 

That's pretty drastic considering a pitcher with a 3.45 ERA is considered "good" while a pitcher with a 2.95 ERA is considered "great". ERA doesn't make the pitcher, but that is such a massive decrease.

[chisoxfan09]

Do either Jared Mitchell or JDanks2 have the projected range that could make them good CF's? I mean do they have the jump and ability to run good routes in the field?

[chw42]

Do either Jared Mitchell or JDanks2 have the projected range that could make them good CF's? I mean do they have the jump and ability to run good routes in the field?

 

Yes and yes. Mitchell's better though.

 

While we're on the topic of awesome underrated fielders...

 

How about that Ryan Sweeney?

Edited March 3, 2010 by chw42

[SoxAce]

Yes and yes. Mitchell's better though.

 

 

I'd bet my left nut, as of right now (not to mention from watching both in college, though Mitchell was a RF and I saw Danks alittle bit in high school from scout tapes), Danks is the much better CF. Mitchell is still raw there defensively. Not saying he could potentially be better (he does have much better speed), but Danks is the much better defensive CF right now. They both have the projected range that could make them good CF's (jump, ability) etc.. to answer the other posters question BTW. We'll be extremely lucky if one, yet alone both ever make it. It'll be fun watching Mitchell develop there though.

Edited March 3, 2010 by SoxAce

[chw42]

 

I'd bet my left nut, as of right now (not to mention from watching both in college, though Mitchell was a RF and I saw Danks alittle bit in high school from scout tapes), Danks is the much better CF. Mitchell is still raw there defensively. Not saying he could potentially be better (he does have much better speed), but Danks is the much better defensive CF right now. They both have the projected range that could make them good CF's (jump, ability) etc.. to answer the other posters question BTW. We'll be extremely lucky if one, yet alone both ever make it. It'll be fun watching Mitchell develop there though.

 

He was talking about projected range and such.

 

If we're talking about the future, Mitchell has much better tools to be the better outfielder. He's just much more athletic and his range should be greater than Danks'.