ChiSox_Sonix Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Mar 2, 2010 -> 12:33 PM) Ask yourself these questions in this order: Is Ozzie the pitching coach? Isn't it the pitching coaches job to fix pitchers? Were any pitchers made better while under the services of said pitching coach? Who is the pitching coach? If all of these questions have pointed you towards Don Cooper, you may move on in the course. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 Everyone is overreacting. I think Cooper is a good pitching coach. My argument is that Cooper shouldn't get credit for "fixing" people just because they played better for the White Sox than other teams. I'm more than happy to hear your argument about how Cooper fixed Jenks, Cotts, Contreras, Hermanson, Floyd, Loaiza. I actually heard how Cooper worked with Thornton on his delivery, so I'll give him credit for Thornton. Now let me hear what he did for the others.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Mar 2, 2010 -> 05:33 PM) So it's Cooper's fault that Jenks can't control how many double cheeseburgers he eats at McDonalds? It's not Coopers fault for any of these pitchers downfalls, nor do I think he should get credit for fixing them because they succeeded. Does anyone actually get my point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Mar 2, 2010 -> 05:35 PM) Jenks regressing? To what exactly? 05 2.75 1.25 06 4.00 1.39 07 2.77 0.89 08 2.63 1.10 09 3.71 1.27 Where is the regression? And who fell apart? The flash in the pans that had career years with Coop as their coach? Contreras's age caught up with him, but was one of the more dominant arms in the bigs when he was healthy with the Sox. Cotts and Polite arent even pitching anymore. Your arguments are terrible and I suggest you give up that opinion. If you are arguing that he did fix them then tell me how he fixed them. Fill in this blank. Coop fixed Jenks by _______. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 QUOTE (striker @ Mar 2, 2010 -> 12:40 PM) It's not Coopers fault for any of these pitchers downfalls, nor do I think he should get credit for fixing them because they succeeded. Does anyone actually get my point? Then don't list them as "failures". This all started because you chose to do so. The point I think you were trying to make became lost when you tried to point to certain pitchers who have succeeded here as evidence of Don Cooper's "failures", which is just absurd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Mar 2, 2010 -> 05:43 PM) Then don't list them as "failures". This all started because you chose to do so. The point I think you were trying to make became lost when you tried to point to certain pitchers who have succeeded here as evidence of Don Cooper's "failures", which is just absurd. Agreed. I also admitted that their lack of success had nothing to do with Cooper. Now can anyone argue how Cooper fixed Contreras, Jenks, Floyd, or Hermanson? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 QUOTE (striker @ Mar 2, 2010 -> 11:39 AM) Everyone is overreacting. I think Cooper is a good pitching coach. My argument is that Cooper shouldn't get credit for "fixing" people just because they played better for the White Sox than other teams. I'm more than happy to hear your argument about how Cooper fixed Jenks, Cotts, Contreras, Hermanson, Floyd, Loaiza. I actually heard how Cooper worked with Thornton on his delivery, so I'll give him credit for Thornton. Now let me hear what he did for the others.... Then what exactly would the criteria be for a good pitching coach??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 QUOTE (Reddy @ Mar 2, 2010 -> 04:44 PM) are you insane? Successes: Thornton Hermanson Floyd Contreras (s*** before coop) Loaiza (s*** before AND after coop) Jenks (s*** before coop) how can you say he wasn't successful with those last three?? Can you tell me what Cooper did to fix these players? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 QUOTE (striker @ Mar 2, 2010 -> 11:41 AM) If you are arguing that he did fix them then tell me how he fixed them. Fill in this blank. Coop fixed Jenks by _______. Moving him to the pen, cleaning up his mechanics, teaching him how to control more than just 2 pitches. Taught him basic fundamentals of attacking hitters instead of throwing just where you can throw. He has reduced his walks and increased his control. He has learned to use a sinker instead of sitting on his 4-seamer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 QUOTE (striker @ Mar 2, 2010 -> 11:51 AM) Can you tell me what Cooper did to fix these players? Fixed Thornton in ONE side sessions, something that seasoned pitching coaches have never been able to do. Slowed down his delivery and corrected all ancillary movement in his wind. Thornton credits Cooper with allowing him to be as dominant as he is today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 QUOTE (striker @ Mar 2, 2010 -> 01:51 PM) Can you tell me what Cooper did to fix these players? this guys goin crazy, drop the subject bro.........we dont know the inner workings of a pitching coach, but its clear that most the guys on your failures list were actually better when they came to the south side, and its def not because theyre coming to a pitchers ball park. you were getting bashed because you called em failures simple as that and there not end of story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 2, 2010 -> 05:51 PM) Then what exactly would the criteria be for a good pitching coach??? The White Sox have pretty much always had good pitching under Cooper. I can't say what he does to be a good pitching coach but I know he gets good results. What would be the criteria for giving a pitching coach credit for fixing someone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 QUOTE (striker @ Mar 2, 2010 -> 11:56 AM) The White Sox have pretty much always had good pitching under Cooper. I can't say what he does to be a good pitching coach but I know he gets good results. What would be the criteria for giving a pitching coach credit for fixing someone? Clearly you cant find the criteria, even when the player himself credits the coach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowch Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 This has gone very far off topic..... I am excited to hear about who does what today. I love spring training for all we hear about our young guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 QUOTE (striker @ Mar 2, 2010 -> 12:40 PM) It's not Coopers fault for any of these pitchers downfalls, nor do I think he should get credit for fixing them because they succeeded. Does anyone actually get my point? No. You tried to post something new and insightful and it backfired on you because it was a completely ridiculous point to try and make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Mar 2, 2010 -> 05:53 PM) Moving him to the pen, cleaning up his mechanics, teaching him how to control more than just 2 pitches. Taught him basic fundamentals of attacking hitters instead of throwing just where you can throw. He has reduced his walks and increased his control. He has learned to use a sinker instead of sitting on his 4-seamer. Is this all just assumed by you or are these referenced facts? I'm not trying to stir crap with people either, I am genuinely curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Mar 2, 2010 -> 05:54 PM) Fixed Thornton in ONE side sessions, something that seasoned pitching coaches have never been able to do. Slowed down his delivery and corrected all ancillary movement in his wind. Thornton credits Cooper with allowing him to be as dominant as he is today. I gave Cooper credit for Thornton. It's been documented that he made changes in his delivery. I haven't seen any documented changes for any of the other mentioned players though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 QUOTE (striker @ Mar 2, 2010 -> 11:59 AM) I gave Cooper credit for Thornton. It's been documented that he made changes in his delivery. I haven't seen any documented changes for any of the other mentioned players though. "Documented changes"? He's a f***ing baseball coach, not an attorney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 QUOTE (iamshack @ Mar 2, 2010 -> 12:00 PM) "Documented changes"? He's a f***ing baseball coach, not an attorney. Cooper patents every success story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 Everyone says Coop fixed them, or Coop can fix them. All I asked is what did he do to fix them? I'll drop it though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 QUOTE (striker @ Mar 2, 2010 -> 11:56 AM) The White Sox have pretty much always had good pitching under Cooper. I can't say what he does to be a good pitching coach but I know he gets good results. What would be the criteria for giving a pitching coach credit for fixing someone? You really don't remember the Nardi Contreras era, do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 QUOTE (striker @ Mar 2, 2010 -> 12:06 PM) Everyone says Coop fixed them, or Coop can fix them. All I asked is what did he do to fix them? I'll drop it though. No, you claimed he only improved the performance of 1 pitcher, and failed with several others. The proof is in the pudding. There is nothing more we can really provide you without being on staff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 QUOTE (striker @ Mar 2, 2010 -> 12:06 PM) Everyone says Coop fixed them, or Coop can fix them. All I asked is what did he do to fix them? I'll drop it though. Yeah but you discredited him, then basically said there was nothing that you could use to prove he helped these pitchers. So what is it? A pitching coach is supposed to detect delivery flaws, mechanic flaws, and discuss them with pitchers who are having problems. We are on the outside looking in, we dont know what goes on behind closed doors. Some of his success stories have been remarkable, Contreras(to me) being his shining star. All pitchers regress, some of them completely fall apart, some of them gradually. Coop has had a lot of instant success with pitchers who have come under his control, you cannot deny that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuna Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 QUOTE (striker @ Mar 2, 2010 -> 11:56 AM) The White Sox have pretty much always had good pitching under Cooper. I can't say what he does to be a good pitching coach but I know he gets good results. What would be the criteria for giving a pitching coach credit for fixing someone? your first two sentences answer the question you ask in the third sentence. Also, I could be wrong but I believe Cotts was named "set up man of the year" while he was with Cooper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottyDo Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 Back on topic, Jordan Danks with the first hit of the game, per Reifort Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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