The 2010 DH Slot -- What it is, what it isn't

[Ranger]

I laugh at the notion you are giving guys a "rest" when you are DHing them. Especially corner OFs. They may get 5 or 6 plays a game some days, some days even less. Most of these guys work with Allen Thomas and are pretty well conditioned specimens. A few innings in the field especially if its a night game and the sun isn't beating down on them in the middle of August, is nothing. Most guys will spend many times the energy they will spend playing the field working in the batting cage and during BP before the game, and a few guys exert more just swinging the weighted stuff while on deck. If

"rest" is what you are after, keep them away from a bat for a day.

 

That's not really true, just because you aren't invovled in a play doesn't mean they are just standing there doing nothing. There's definitely a difference between playing the field and not playing the field, especially when you play 130 games or more in 6 months. And all the cummulative pregame work they do is even more reason for them to catch a breather from the field every now and then. Not to mention that some guys just simply get "achy" as the weeks go on. Every little bit matters.

[Dick Allen]

That's not really true, just because you aren't invovled in a play doesn't mean they are just standing there doing nothing. There's definitely a difference between playing the field and not playing the field, especially when you play 130 games or more in 6 months. And all the cummulative pregame work they do is even more reason for them to catch a breather from the field every now and then. Not to mention that some guys just simply get "achy" as the weeks go on. Every little bit matters.

You're helping make my point. Not having to go out to the OF and catch a couple of fly balls and throw a few balls back to the infield isn't exactly rest.

[quickman]

If you're saying that it could someday shift back to the days where the DH is a power hitter that puts up big numbers, that very well could happen. But this has been a trend over the last few years, and I wouldn't be surprised if it continues as you'll likely see fewer big power guys come into the game like we had during the last couple of decades.

 

And, really, that's been the shift for most teams. Without the big guy as DH, teams are having to get more creative with their lineups. I mean, if you have David Ortiz (from a few years ago) on your team, there's no question he plays every day. Tough to take that bat out of a lineup for any reason, aside from injury or fatigue.

 

Something else to consider, though I don't know how much of an effect it's really had, but baseball is now in a post-amphetamines era. What's potentially significant about that is those greenies used to help many of these guys get through a full season (before they were officially banned, there were estimates that as many as 80% of players used them). There were quite a few players at the time that said that particular banning would have a greater effect on the game then people would realize. I remember Chipper Jones saying something along the lines of he thought greenies were more important than steroids (take that for what it's worth). While I'm sure players can find something to help get them through, I would imagine that teams are having to find ways to get guys some rest here and there while the season goes on. If that means you get days off from the field because of a rotating DH, then that's one way.

 

Ranger you maybe absolutley right about the coming trend, although I would say that if teams had players such as Thome (10 years ago) Thomas ( 10 years ago) both not associated with PEd's that they would go with them. Even today a guy like Dunn would be a perfect fit for a DH. I would argue Jermaine Dye with his head right could do a very good job as well, same with Prince Fielder in a few years. That slot is perfect for those power hitters who lack the ability to play defensively everyday. I for one like the DH, I also like Home runs especially in a ballpark like the Cell. Personally I think the DH spot this year will fail miserably unless Andrew Jones can somehow get his career back. I am not arguing I just think for this park you need a guy that is a pure homerun threat.

[whitesoxfan101]

You know, I knew it would happen when it became clear this is what we had, but I really do tire of trying to be convinced that putting a combination of really bad offensive players in our offense consistently would make us better.

 

That's the issue here. The rotating DH, if done properly, is not a problem at all. Actually, in the post greenie era, it's probably a good way to go, and it gives you more flexibility in facing lefty vs. righty pitchers. But when none of the guys rotating in there can hit, it doesn't matter how fresh everybody is.

Edited March 7, 2010 by whitesoxfan101

[Ranger]

You're helping make my point. Not having to go out to the OF and catch a couple of fly balls and throw a few balls back to the infield isn't exactly rest.

 

 

Huh? How am I helping make your point by saying that it does, in fact, matter to get some time off from the field? If anything, that's the complete opposite of what you're saying.

[Ranger]

Ranger you maybe absolutley right about the coming trend, although I would say that if teams had players such as Thome (10 years ago) Thomas ( 10 years ago) both not associated with PEd's that they would go with them. Even today a guy like Dunn would be a perfect fit for a DH. I would argue Jermaine Dye with his head right could do a very good job as well, same with Prince Fielder in a few years. That slot is perfect for those power hitters who lack the ability to play defensively everyday. I for one like the DH, I also like Home runs especially in a ballpark like the Cell. Personally I think the DH spot this year will fail miserably unless Andrew Jones can somehow get his career back. I am not arguing I just think for this park you need a guy that is a pure homerun threat.

 

 

Or you need the collective lineup to produce homeruns, you don't necessarily need just one guy to be the HR guy. Keep in mind that everyone in the lineup, except Pierre, is easily capable of 15+ homeruns apiece, while Beckham and Rios are capable of 20 each, Konerko 30 (though 25+ is more likely), and Quentin 30+. (I didn't even include Jones or Nix that each have plenty of power potential). Not a single player hit 30 HRs for the Sox last year, but they were 6th overall in the AL in that category. It helps, but they don't have to have one big HR producer, though it would obviously give them a better chance. It's not a foregone conclusion that they will be without power. Regardless, I think it's hyperbolic to say the DH will be a miserable failure.

 

Obviously, if there were guys like Thome or Thomas from 10 years ago available to them, they would take it. But regardless of why there aren't that many of those types, the reality is that there just aren't many of those types anymore.

[Rowand44]

Or you need the collective lineup to produce homeruns, you don't necessarily need just one guy to be the HR guy. Keep in mind that everyone in the lineup, except Pierre, is easily capable of 15+ homeruns apiece, while Beckham and Rios are capable of 20 each, Konerko 30 (though 25+ is more likely), and Quentin 30+. (I didn't even include Jones or Nix that each have plenty of power potential). Not a single player hit 30 HRs for the Sox last year, but they were 6th overall in the AL in that category. It helps, but they don't have to have one big HR producer, though it would obviously give them a better chance. It's not a foregone conclusion that they will be without power. Regardless, I think it's hyperbolic to say the DH will be a miserable failure.

 

Obviously, if there were guys like Thome or Thomas from 10 years ago available to them, they would take it. But regardless of why there aren't that many of those types, the reality is that there just aren't many of those types anymore.

Yeah but there's plenty of good hitters to be dh'ing, they don't need to be 30+ homer guys but a decent hitter would sure be nice. For the first time in my life, I agree with quick, if Jones doesn't magically get back to what he was 4 years ago than the dh(or wherever the hell this extra player will be hitting) will be a miserable failure, I don't see how that's even arguable at this point.

[SoxAce]

Keep in mind that everyone in the lineup, except Pierre, is easily capable of 15+ homeruns apiece

 

Meh.. I dunno about Kotsay either even in a smaller park (which I wouldn't want him hitting homers anyway, more-so being the gap to gap hitter he's been in his career) perhaps if he gets 600+ PA, probably, though I doubt he will if he and Jones are sharing the duties. I don't think he's hit 15 in what 5-6 years.. Wouldn't want him to though like I said.

[whitesoxfan101]

Yeah but there's plenty of good hitters to be dh'ing, they don't need to be 30+ homer guys but a decent hitter would sure be nice. For the first time in my life, I agree with quick, if Jones doesn't magically get back to what he was 4 years ago than the dh(or wherever the hell this extra player will be hitting) will be a miserable failure, I don't see how that's even arguable at this point.

 

It would take somebody massively overachieving or a trade for DH not to be a miserable failure (and even with a trade, that probably wouldn't occur until July.) The Sox are just going to have to get around the DH spot being bad in the meantime by hoping for more realistic things like Quentin having a big year (I expect him to if he's healthy), Konerko doing it more one time (certainly possible) and Rios rebounding (he's a wildcard, he could do just about anything this year and I wouldn't consider it a surprise.)

[chisoxfan09]

Or you need the collective lineup to produce homeruns, you don't necessarily need just one guy to be the HR guy. Keep in mind that everyone in the lineup, except Pierre, is easily capable of 15+ homeruns apiece, while Beckham and Rios are capable of 20 each, Konerko 30 (though 25+ is more likely), and Quentin 30+. (I didn't even include Jones or Nix that each have plenty of power potential). Not a single player hit 30 HRs for the Sox last year, but they were 6th overall in the AL in that category. It helps, but they don't have to have one big HR producer, though it would obviously give them a better chance. It's not a foregone conclusion that they will be without power. Regardless, I think it's hyperbolic to say the DH will be a miserable failure.

 

Obviously, if there were guys like Thome or Thomas from 10 years ago available to them, they would take it. But regardless of why there aren't that many of those types, the reality is that there just aren't many of those types anymore.

 

Ranger, I see your point about a well balanced lineup and it is probably not far from being true that the lineup will actually surprise and hit in the middle of the pack when it comes to power numbers. But I am not sold on the DH by committee strategy ozzie has because of the talent he has inserted (Mandrew Vizquel). I would rather (If it were possible) have a power hitting high OBP guy like AGon because he will most certainly drive in more runs or create run producing opportunites than Kotsay, Jones, or Vizquel. I am not sure of the OBP combined for all three but it is no where near the .400 clip AGon has put up the past 2 years.

Edited March 7, 2010 by chisoxfan09

[Dick Allen]

Huh? How am I helping make your point by saying that it does, in fact, matter to get some time off from the field? If anything, that's the complete opposite of what you're saying.

You're talking about all the other stuff they have to do. If anything, if you really want to rest your guys, you don't have them take swings in the cage then go take BP and then come to bat 4 times. Its hardly different than playing the field unless you're a catcher or maybe a SS. Its like if someone works out intensely for 2 hours everyday but gives himself the 5 jumping jacks he does at the end of the workout off on Sunday for rest. Its not rest. You're head still has to be in the game, and it may even be more stressful for guys who aren't used to DHing. I could see the point if its a sunny 95 degree day, but just about everyone here has played baseball. It doesn't take much out of you to play the field, especially a corner OF. Considering the type of condition most of these guys are in, its even less of a toll.

 

I personally don't mind a DH only guy, I also don't mind a rotating DH as long as the players rotating daily are regular-quality players. One problem with a rotating DH that isn't brought up is the fact some guys cannot adjust to the position at all, and some take a while. Even when he started DHing full time, Frank Thomas used to play 1B occassionally because he hit better there. Dye blamed some of his struggles on the DH rotating a little bit at the end of last year.

Edited March 7, 2010 by Dick Allen

[soxrwhite]

For those of old enough to remember when the DH first started, it was a way to get the pichers bat out of the lineup. Instead of an automatic out in the 9th spot you put a 9th place hitter. As the homer era took over and aging stars could not play the field the trend toward a power hitter as Dh took over. But any bat you need is an option there. It also meant you could pinch hit that spot with out replacing your pitcher. If you have a great hitter for that spot fine, but if not use it for situational match ups.

[Dick Allen]

If you're saying that it could someday shift back to the days where the DH is a power hitter that puts up big numbers, that very well could happen. But this has been a trend over the last few years, and I wouldn't be surprised if it continues as you'll likely see fewer big power guys come into the game like we had during the last couple of decades.

 

And, really, that's been the shift for most teams. Without the big guy as DH, teams are having to get more creative with their lineups. I mean, if you have David Ortiz (from a few years ago) on your team, there's no question he plays every day. Tough to take that bat out of a lineup for any reason, aside from injury or fatigue.

 

Something else to consider, though I don't know how much of an effect it's really had, but baseball is now in a post-amphetamines era. What's potentially significant about that is those greenies used to help many of these guys get through a full season (before they were officially banned, there were estimates that as many as 80% of players used them). There were quite a few players at the time that said that particular banning would have a greater effect on the game then people would realize. I remember Chipper Jones saying something along the lines of he thought greenies were more important than steroids (take that for what it's worth). While I'm sure players can find something to help get them through, I would imagine that teams are having to find ways to get guys some rest here and there while the season goes on. If that means you get days off from the field because of a rotating DH, then that's one way.

 

I think what it is is the days of the 8 figure-salaried DH are dying plus teams really want another pitcher on the roster and I wouldn't be surprised if Bud again asks the union for permission to abolish the DH, maybe throwing a 26 man roster out there as a trade off. It would give him a better chance of getting it at least considered if the DH's weren't averaging making $8-10 million a year or more.

 

I'm just looking forward to the day the White Sox don't have 4 or 5 guys who should be DHs playing the field. Perhaps this is the year.

[ScottyDo]

I think what it is is the days of the 8 figure-salaried DH are dying plus teams really want another pitcher on the roster and I wouldn't be surprised if Bud again asks the union for permission to abolish the DH, maybe throwing a 26 man roster out there as a trade off. It would give him a better chance of getting it at least considered if the DH's weren't averaging making $8-10 million a year or more.

 

I'm just looking forward to the day the White Sox don't have 4 or 5 guys who should be DHs playing the field. Perhaps this is the year.

That's an interesting point. I kind of felt like we had a few boppers on the team who couldn't play the field because they were the heirs apparent for Thome's eventual departure. Maybe with this paradigm shift, that won't be the case any longer and our defense will improve as a whole.

[beck72]

Welcome aboard Cy!

 

With Jones seemingly back in shape, and Vizquel and Kotsay for the IF, the rotating DH makes much more sense. While the offense may not see a big jump, the added defense should more than offset the loss of HR's.

 

Teams are moving away from the power/ no field DH, to add better defenders in the lineup--without losing too much offense.

[lostfan]

For those of old enough to remember when the DH first started, it was a way to get the pichers bat out of the lineup. Instead of an automatic out in the 9th spot you put a 9th place hitter. As the homer era took over and aging stars could not play the field the trend toward a power hitter as Dh took over. But any bat you need is an option there. It also meant you could pinch hit that spot with out replacing your pitcher. If you have a great hitter for that spot fine, but if not use it for situational match ups.

The situational matchups are all well and good if you have decent players in those matchups and not way past their prime/fringe MLB players.

[fathom]

For those of old enough to remember when the DH first started, it was a way to get the pichers bat out of the lineup. Instead of an automatic out in the 9th spot you put a 9th place hitter. As the homer era took over and aging stars could not play the field the trend toward a power hitter as Dh took over. But any bat you need is an option there. It also meant you could pinch hit that spot with out replacing your pitcher. If you have a great hitter for that spot fine, but if not use it for situational match ups.

 

If you're going to use it for situational match-ups, then you should have better situational hitters than Kotsay/Jones. Jones isn't particularly strong vs LHP, and Kotsay is nothing special against RHP.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

If you're going to use it for situational match-ups, then you should have better situational hitters than Kotsay/Jones. Jones isn't particularly strong vs LHP, and Kotsay is nothing special against RHP.

Not a great fan of the rotating DH situation but I have to remind myself while reading the barbs directed towards Kotsay that is he a professional hitter . He knows what he's doing up there. His contribution last year would have been invaluable had the Sox been in the race last year.

[fathom]

Not a great fan of the rotating DH situation but I have to remind myself while reading the barbs directed towards Kotsay that is he a professional hitter . He knows what he's doing up there. His contribution last year would have been invaluable had the Sox been in the race last year.

 

Oh gosh...is being a professional hitter like being a grinder? Screw being a professional hitter, give me a talented hitter.

[ThunderBolt]

Oh gosh...is being a professional hitter like being a grinder? Screw being a professional hitter, give me a talented hitter.

It's starting to worrying me how these baseball cliches are starting to spread around this community. It was a lot easier to reason with people before someone, "clogging the bases" became a legitimate excuse to not value a player.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I inspired 2 more barbs . Just saying he's a valuable piece to the team. Certainly a good bench player. He played well last year. It got him a new contract and a spot on the team. How many AB's he gets is still not clear.

[Kalapse]

Oh gosh...is being a professional hitter like being a grinder? Screw being a professional hitter, give me a talented hitter.

I believe a professional hitter is a 33+ year old who tends to hover around a .700 OPS but thrives in small sample sizes in order to win starting jobs, he then holds the job much too long due to his grindiness.

 

And saying Mark Kotsay is "nothing special against RHP" is far too kind to Mr. Kotsay unless you like sub .740 OPS's and non-existent power as part of a platoon.

[greg775]

It's starting to worrying me how these baseball cliches are starting to spread around this community. It was a lot easier to reason with people before someone, "clogging the bases" became a legitimate excuse to not value a player.

 

That's kinda funny and a great point.

I hated seeing station to station baseball in games where we didn't score much, but certainly loved it when we were bashing homer after home. Just win, baby.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

You're talking about all the other stuff they have to do. If anything, if you really want to rest your guys, you don't have them take swings in the cage then go take BP and then come to bat 4 times. Its hardly different than playing the field unless you're a catcher or maybe a SS. Its like if someone works out intensely for 2 hours everyday but gives himself the 5 jumping jacks he does at the end of the workout off on Sunday for rest. Its not rest. You're head still has to be in the game, and it may even be more stressful for guys who aren't used to DHing. I could see the point if its a sunny 95 degree day, but just about everyone here has played baseball. It doesn't take much out of you to play the field, especially a corner OF. Considering the type of condition most of these guys are in, its even less of a toll.

 

I personally don't mind a DH only guy, I also don't mind a rotating DH as long as the players rotating daily are regular-quality players. One problem with a rotating DH that isn't brought up is the fact some guys cannot adjust to the position at all, and some take a while. Even when he started DHing full time, Frank Thomas used to play 1B occassionally because he hit better there. Dye blamed some of his struggles on the DH rotating a little bit at the end of last year.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Not a great fan of the rotating DH situation but I have to remind myself while reading the barbs directed towards Kotsay that is he a professional hitter . He knows what he's doing up there. His contribution last year would have been invaluable had the Sox been in the race last year.

+1

 

Kotsay is very well-suited for a bench role.