Teahen's struggles...

[southsider2k5]

Trade/Release Teahen. Sign Crede. When Crede is injured, bring up Morel. Problem solved.

 

If this was talk radio, you would have just gotten hung up on.

[Jerksticks]

Even if Teahen has a mediocre year, his contract is rather tradeable. Once Morel is ready, Kenny will get some good talent for Teahen; great talent if he picks it up. Not much risk here.

[LittleHurt05]

If this was talk radio, you would have just gotten hung up on.

 

Makes ya feel for Ranger a little bit, as he actually gets calls like that every single day.

[Kalapse]

He had 2 awful months, 3 subpar months, and 1 pretty good one. And even if 5 of them were awful, it doesn't necessarily mean anything in terms of what is to come for him. Players will sometimes have anomalous poor seasons.

Semantics. You see a .670 OPS from a 28 year old $70M, 3 hole hitter as "subpar" while in my world .750 would be subpar.

[elrockinMT]

His old one hasn't worked that great for him either, since 2006. His talent level, he ought to be a heck of a lot better of a hitter than what he has been.

 

 

I would have thought so too. Is he just struggling trying to find a comfortable groove or what? I hope this issue is just a ST one

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Semantics. You see a .670 OPS from a 28 year old $70M, 3 hole hitter as "subpar" while in my world .750 would be subpar.

Yeah, and Rios was making $5.9M last year so you're overstating this just a tad, aren't you? Rios doesn't get expensive until this year ($9.7M - and BTW Mike Cameron got $7.25M per for 2 years, so maybe Rios really isn't all that expensive) and then in 2011 Rios starts making $12M per. And given Rios' talent level and career overall, I have no idea why last season should be so damning.

 

Also, isn't this thread about Mark Teahen? You know, the bench player we gave 3 guaranteed years to in order to be our starter? You know, the guy who, unlike Rios, has outside of one season never shown much of anything at all, and who is much weaker at his defensive position, and who is far less offensively capable, and also plays a position where offense is a greater priority?

 

I'd be much more worried about the career .749 mediocre defensive 3B than the .775 career strong defensive CF, especially when in 3 of that CF'ers 6 seasons he has posted an OPS of about .800 or above (.798, .852, .865) while that 3B has only done that once in 5 seasons (.874) and it looks like a fluke considering his next highest total is .763, which is 111 points lower.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

BTW there's no reason to freak out about Teahen either. He'll probably give us exactly what his career numbers seem to suggest, which is an average player at best, and probably someone we'll be wanting to upgrade over as soon as this July.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

If this was talk radio, you would have just gotten hung up on.

 

It was mostly tongue-and-cheek. But not totally because I really do want to see Morel come up at some point if Teahen continues to suck.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

It was mostly tongue-and-cheek. But not totally because I really do want to see Morel come up at some point if Teahen continues to suck.

Morel's upside isn't all that high, in fact I don't really think it's much higher than what Teahen is already doing right now. Maybe Morel can steal a few more bases and play 3B a little better, but when you factor in the learning curve? Hell no. Morel would be giving away AB like there's no tomorrow. At least Teahen is a vet who knows what he's doing.

[justBLAZE]

As far as hurting elbow goes, this thread and most of replies where posted before we learned about his elbow, FWIW.

[Kyyle23]

Alex Rios' contract has no merit? I just stated facts. KW said he had a trade for a pitcher that could have made his rotation the best ever. He said they ran into a problem with an extension. These are facts. I said not having to owe $60 million to Rios probably would have helped with the extension. I also said maybe not, because it may not have been the extension. Perhaps Halladay or whoever it was just said no. IIRC, Halladay has a NTC.

 

I also love how you rip me for speculating, then speculate yourself. As for spending, the White Sox have recently spent a lot more money on starting pitching if you break it down $/player than any other position. 2006 the only 2 players on the roster being paid more than the 5 starters were Thome and half of his salary was being paid by Philadelphia, and Konerko who was a post season star for a championship team. Konerko at that stage was owed about the same as Rios is right now.

 

If KW was at least semi- prepared to make a deal with Halladay or whatever pitcher it was that was going to make his rotation the best of all-time in his words, I'm sure he knew it would cost a pretty penny not only prospect-wise, but money-wise as well. Adrian Gonzalez, if the Sox somehow get him, is going to be just as expensive, if not more if they want to extend him.

 

Rios has a lot to live up to. Paying someone $60 million for 5 years is expecting he will perform a lot better than an average player. He needs to be better than the "well he's better than Dewayne Wise" thoughts. I don't see where 25 or so spring training ABs shows he's ready to live up to his end of the deal. I hope he does, but nothing has been answered yet. I'd bet the ranch if he was placed on waivers, he wouldn't be claimed. If he was making $1 million a year, he most certainly would be claimed. His contract has plenty of merit.

 

What, you dont like when people b**** and moan about the same s***? Funny, me neither. And I never said Rios contract has no merit. I said your money complaining has no merit in the conversation, which was about Teahen's struggles, hence the name of the thread

Edited March 21, 2010 by KyYlE23

[Dick Allen]

What, you dont like when people b**** and moan about the same s***? Funny, me neither. And I never said Rios contract has no merit. I said your money complaining has no merit in the conversation, which was about Teahen's struggles, hence the name of the thread

Maybe you should look at the post my post was responding to before you tell me it has no merit again. You mentioned the Sox would never have Halladay's and Peavy's contracts on the books at the same time in his thread. What does that have to do with Teahen's struggles.

You're a mod. If my post doesn't fit into a thread delete it. Its pretty simple. Don't try to knock me and then do the same things you're accusing me of doing.

 

And I wasn't "complaining" about money. I just said his acquisition perhaps cost the Sox a shot at Halladay. I think its a fair statement.

[Kalapse]

Yeah, and Rios was making $5.9M last year so you're overstating this just a tad, aren't you? Rios doesn't get expensive until this year ($9.7M - and BTW Mike Cameron got $7.25M per for 2 years, so maybe Rios really isn't all that expensive) and then in 2011 Rios starts making $12M per. And given Rios' talent level and career overall, I have no idea why last season should be so damning.

No, not really. When you're given a $70M contract it doesn't really matter how it's structured, you're expected to produce at the level of player who's worthy of such a lucrative extension. So you give a guy a huge contract that's mostly backloaded and because of this your expectations are backloaded as well? That's ridiculous.

 

I really only care about that first line as the rest of your post applies to me in no way, the only thing I'm arguing is the contention that Rios only had 2 bad months last year and what qualifies as "bad", "awful" or "subpar".

[Kyyle23]

Just wondering if everytime someone calls you out on your whining you will resort to "well why dont you just delete it if you dont like it?".

 

Keep muddying the point DA, you are very good at that.

 

and with that, I am done with making my point.

Edited March 21, 2010 by KyYlE23

[Dick Allen]

Just wondering if everytime someone calls you out on your whining you will resort to "well why dont you just delete it if you dont like it?".

 

Keep muddying the point DA, you are very good at that.

 

and with that, I am done with making my point.

You're point is worthless. Kalapse is posting about Rios. Where's your complaining? You were the one who is whining. Grow up. I'm just defending myself.

[Ranger]

The issue is for Rios was that it's bsaically the 2nd season in a row his OPS has fallen (albeit the 2nd was more dramatic).

 

Can he turn it around? Absolutely, he's hitting in a very good ballpark power wise. I'm one of those who doubt he'll ever reach an OPS above .850 (what he was basically averaging in his prime years in Toronto) again though.

 

Rios has been trending down ever since he signed his extension. KW told Garfien he had a pitcher but couldn't agree to an extension. That pitcher supposedly was Roy Halladay. The $60 million Rios eats up probably would have help with the extension part. Maybe not. I'm certainly not going to get too excited by a few spring training AB and determine he's back and better than ever. I still have what many scounts have offered, that he doesn't seem to care since he signed that contract, in the front of my mind.

 

He and Jones will have to perform well when the games count and the pitchers who deserve to be on a MLB mound will be on the mound using their entire aresenal, and although I don't think much of Teahan, its the same way with him. These outs and errors don't mean squat. The games don't count. I think everyone should be reminded Wilson Betemit hit 6 homers and had 18 rbi for the Sox in spring training last year. It doesn't count.

 

To say "trending down" isn't really fair, because it misrepresents his game. Yeah, he trended down, but not in the way you mean it. You say it as if there was something alarming about the difference between his 2006 and 2007 (which you would have to include in your 'trending down' time period), which, really, there wasn't. The two seasons were basically the same, though some of the numbers were slightly -- and I do mean slightly, as in "unnoticeably" -- lower. In 2008 there was some significance, and last year was anomalous. He won't do that again unless he's hurt.

 

 

 

Alex Rios' contract has no merit? I just stated facts. KW said he had a trade for a pitcher that could have made his rotation the best ever. He said they ran into a problem with an extension. These are facts. I said not having to owe $60 million to Rios probably would have helped with the extension. I also said maybe not, because it may not have been the extension. Perhaps Halladay or whoever it was just said no. IIRC, Halladay has a NTC.

 

I also love how you rip me for speculating, then speculate yourself. As for spending, the White Sox have recently spent a lot more money on starting pitching if you break it down $/player than any other position. 2006 the only 2 players on the roster being paid more than the 5 starters were Thome and half of his salary was being paid by Philadelphia, and Konerko who was a post season star for a championship team. Konerko at that stage was owed about the same as Rios is right now.

 

If KW was at least semi- prepared to make a deal with Halladay or whatever pitcher it was that was going to make his rotation the best of all-time in his words, I'm sure he knew it would cost a pretty penny not only prospect-wise, but money-wise as well. Adrian Gonzalez, if the Sox somehow get him, is going to be just as expensive, if not more if they want to extend him.

 

Rios has a lot to live up to. Paying someone $60 million for 5 years is expecting he will perform a lot better than an average player. He needs to be better than the "well he's better than Dewayne Wise" thoughts. I don't see where 25 or so spring training ABs shows he's ready to live up to his end of the deal. I hope he does, but nothing has been answered yet. I'd bet the ranch if he was placed on waivers, he wouldn't be claimed. If he was making $1 million a year, he most certainly would be claimed. His contract has plenty of merit.

 

OK, but then they would be without a center fielder. On a team with an already strong rotation, an outfielder was a more desperate need.

 

 

Semantics. You see a .670 OPS from a 28 year old $70M, 3 hole hitter as "subpar" while in my world .750 would be subpar.

 

 

Semantics? Yes. Words matter, friend, and your hyperbole was misleading. There is a difference between "awful" and "subpar". Hitting .150 is "awful". Hitting .250 with a low OBP is ""subpar".

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

No, not really. When you're given a $70M contract it doesn't really matter how it's structured, you're expected to produce at the level of player who's worthy of such a lucrative extension. So you give a guy a huge extension that's mostly backloaded and because of this your expectations are backloaded as well? That's ridiculous.

 

I really only care about that first line as the rest of your post applies to me in no way, the only thing I'm arguing is the contention that Rios only had 2 bad months last year and what qualifies as "bad", "awful" or "subpar".

If the idea is dollar-for-dollar production then it does matter how the contract is structured, because you can't pretend like you're paying him $12M per to struggle when he's only getting a pro-rated $5.9M. You're referring to a caliber of player by mentioning future money owed but then saying the money isn't really the issue. If you just want to discuss the caliber of player only, then no, Rios did not play like an All-Star last year - but as a CF, his numbers in 2007, 2008, and 2009 here would put him right at that level.

 

Also Rios' deal isn't "backloaded." It looks just like any other deal where a young talented player signs away his arbitration years after performing extremely well in the Majors. The length is there because back when Rios signed that deal he was signing for well below what would have been his expected market value as a FA, so in order to get what they thought would turn out to be a sweetheart deal, they had to commit a lot of years. There's nothing too out out of the ordinary with Rios' contract. Go look at the deal Robinson Cano signed way back when, just off the top of my head, and imagine what fans would be saying about him had he hit .249/.296/.395/.691 last year.

 

Rios had 2 terrible months for *us* last year, and isn't that all that matters? And why is it bad he played s***ty in Toronto? It's absolutely fantastic that Rios performed like he did in Toronto, because had he not done that we either wouldn't have been able to acquire him at all, or we'd have had to forfeit a couple some damn good prospects instead of claiming him for nothing. This deal is going to make Kenny Williams look even more like a genius.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Morel's upside isn't all that high, in fact I don't really think it's much higher than what Teahen is already doing right now. Maybe Morel can steal a few more bases and play 3B a little better, but when you factor in the learning curve? Hell no. Morel would be giving away AB like there's no tomorrow. At least Teahen is a vet who knows what he's doing.

 

Morel plays a LOT better Defense. And as far as Teahen knowing what he is doing, so far this spring, I would say the opposite is true. You are right, maybe Morel wouldn't do much better offensively, but his defense and fact that he won't be making $3M a year makes me hope that Teahen will be eventually usurped.

[Dick Allen]

To say "trending down" isn't really fair, because it misrepresents his game. Yeah, he trended down, but not in the way you mean it. You say it as if there was something alarming about the difference between his 2006 and 2007 (which you would have to include in your 'trending down' time period), which, really, there wasn't. The two seasons were basically the same, though some of the numbers were slightly -- and I do mean slightly, as in "unnoticeably" -- lower. In 2008 there was some significance, and last year was anomalous. He won't do that again unless he's hurt.

 

 

 

 

 

OK, but then they would be without a center fielder. On a team with an already strong rotation, an outfielder was a more desperate need.

 

 

 

 

 

Semantics? Yes. Words matter, friend, and your hyperbole was misleading. There is a difference between "awful" and "subpar". Hitting .150 is "awful". Hitting .250 with a low OBP is ""subpar".

 

Finding an adequate OF is a lot easier than finding a front line starter, no matter how good your rotation currently is. If as KW said, the White Sox would have had the best rotation of all time, I think that's more preferrable than Rios in the OF and the current rotation, even though it looks pretty, pretty good, especially if the plan is not to use Rios in CF full time.

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Morel plays a LOT better Defense. And as far as Teahen knowing what he is doing, so far this spring, I would say the opposite is true. You are right, maybe Morel wouldn't do much better offensively, but his defense and fact that he won't be making $3M a year makes me hope that Teahen will be eventually usurped.

Even if Morel turns out to be a lot better - and does anyone really know this? - then the offensive adjustment is going to be so hard that at best it will negate any defensive improvements. And I'd still doubt the better defense stuff too, I mean he's playing MiLB ball right now and learning the MLB fields and MLB game speed is going to take time even if he is pretty good in the minors.

 

I'm with you on Teahen though. I don't like the trade and I didn't like the trade when we made it. I think Chris Getz will turn out to be the best player in that deal, I think Teahen was on his way to being non-tendered, and I think the extension was a very poor move by the Sox and that the Sox should have at the very least made the third year a team option with a small buyout. I hope I'm wrong and Teahen does very well, but I'm not counting on it. If we do want to replace him at some point though, I just hope we don't call on someone like Morel. Go out and get a guy who is definitely going to be better.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Finding an adequate OF is a lot easier than finding a front line starter, no matter how good your rotation currently is. If as KW said, the White Sox would have had the best rotation of all time, I think that's more preferrable than Rios in the OF and the current rotation, even though it looks pretty, pretty good, especially if the plan is not to use Rios in CF full time.

Ok, so I read that Halladay didn't come here because Halladay did not want to play for the Sox. We weren't on his list. Is that wrong? And if money was really the issue, then how do you know that? And how do you know Rios' contract played even the slightest itsy witsy bitsy role in the money discussions? Perhaps the problem was more along the lines of Jerry not wanting to have about nine gazillion dollars locked up in pitchers? JR was quoted as saying that ideally all pitchers would be on 1-year-deals. I bet if I could go back in time one year and post a thread in this forum asking people to vote on whether or not JR would take on Peavy's deal if it could be done, I bet the overwhelming majority of people here would have said hell no.

 

And BTW for all we know Kenny was talking about Felix Hernandez. Or Dan Haren. Or Cliff Lee. Or someone else. Kenny said something like us having "maybe the best 5-man rotation ever" and then Garfien went on about Halladay and ran with it. None of us know what went on.

[southsider2k5]

It was mostly tongue-and-cheek. But not totally because I really do want to see Morel come up at some point if Teahen continues to suck.

 

I have yet to see anyone say that Morel is ready for the bigs yet.

[typewritermender]

I was at the Sox Padres game yesterday and Teahen looked like a wreck in the field. Two of the same ball on back to back batters: a hard grounder up the line. Teahen fielded them & threw to first like he was playing in water. Really slow--I thought the 2nd one should have been an error because he bobbled it, but they were both marked singles. He looked really lazy out there. Then a few batters later there was a bunt down the 3B line and nobody did ANYTHING. Tea just stood there. Bunt single. Morel was brought in during the 6th or 7th and he looked like an all-star. Working his butt off, making the plays. I'm guessing Teahen got a Guillen-earfull. At least I hope he did.

 

I kinda want Getz back.

 

And our offense looked miserable. I mean, we lost 4-1 to a split-squad PADRES. Maybe the oppressive Arizona sun was frying the White Sox's brains. Hopefully it turns around and all our offensive ifs work out. If Tea can get his act together and Konerko can have a decent year and one of our bench/DHs really stands out, I think we'll have enough offense to support our amazing pitching staff.

 

Here's hoping!

[Dick Allen]

Ok, so I read that Halladay didn't come here because Halladay did not want to play for the Sox. We weren't on his list. Is that wrong? And if money was really the issue, then how do you know that? And how do you know Rios' contract played even the slightest itsy witsy bitsy role in the money discussions? Perhaps the problem was more along the lines of Jerry not wanting to have about nine gazillion dollars locked up in pitchers? JR was quoted as saying that ideally all pitchers would be on 1-year-deals. I bet if I could go back in time one year and post a thread in this forum asking people to vote on whether or not JR would take on Peavy's deal if it could be done, I bet the overwhelming majority of people here would have said hell no.

 

And BTW for all we know Kenny was talking about Felix Hernandez. Or Dan Haren. Or Cliff Lee. Or someone else. Kenny said something like us having "maybe the best 5-man rotation ever" and then Garfien went on about Halladay and ran with it. None of us know what went on.

As I said in my first post I could never be sure, but KW indicated the issue was money related. If it was Halladay he could have just said no, you are correct. But if its the other guys, they don't have no trade protection as far as what I can tell so the White Sox would have to have been given a window to negotiate an extension. I'm sure if they went to the trouble of making a deal for any one of these guys, they knew they wouldn't be getting him for $8 million a year for 5 years. The money Rios is getting paid, if it wasn't on the books, could logically have been used towards that extension.

 

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

The Rios money could have been used on a lot of things, but Rios was one of Kenny's longtime targets and I highly doubt Kenny is regretting that because he could have gotten so-and-so. If Rios were still out there Kenny would still be trying to get him.

 

The biggest money eater here is Linebrink. Rios is very, very capable of performing up to or beyond his level of pay whereas Linebrink is waaaay below it with no hopes of reaching it. Konerko is of course way underperforming his salary also. But the Paulie deal had to be done, even if in the end it turns out that in 4 of the 5 years he signed for he didn't meet the value of his deal. So I guess the point I'm making is that if we're looking at things in hindsight and questioning what could have gone where, I wouldn't be pointing at Rios. For about 1 1/5 terrible months, this guy gets just as much s*** as the Erstad/BA/Owens/Mackowiack/Terrero/Wise/Pods CF monster did, but if you took all those players and added up their talents and then multiplied them by Aaron Rowand you still wouldn't get a player as talented as Rios. Let's just please give this s*** a rest and let him prove himself already.