Say hey, It's Kotsay

[witesoxfan]

Well, he DID bat this guy in the DH spot for 135 games in 2005:

 

vs RHP .246 .317 .441 .757

vs LHP .265 .295 .419 .714

 

Only 107 games. And to be fair, the Sox didn't plan on having Everett DH or play nearly that much throughout the entirety of the year. They wanted Thomas to get healthy and be a big bat from the right side of the plate, and he was that for about a month, and then he went down again. Everett was basically the backup plan and depth off of the bench.

 

Besides all of that, it doesn't justify the Sox using the DH's they are.

[RockRaines]

Only 107 games. And to be fair, the Sox didn't plan on having Everett DH or play nearly that much throughout the entirety of the year. They wanted Thomas to get healthy and be a big bat from the right side of the plate, and he was that for about a month, and then he went down again. Everett was basically the backup plan and depth off of the bench.

 

Besides all of that, it doesn't justify the Sox using the DH's they are.

He played 135 games.

[witesoxfan]

He played 135 games.

 

Yes he did. He only played 107 of them at DH.

[lostfan]

Well, he DID bat this guy in the DH spot for 135 games in 2005:

 

vs RHP .246 .317 .441 .757

vs LHP .265 .295 .419 .714

Well, the original DH got lost for the season early on, so it wasn't like he knowingly did that to start the season

 

edit: s*** I just noticed witesoxfan already said this

Edited March 25, 2010 by lostfan

[Dick Allen]

Only 107 games. And to be fair, the Sox didn't plan on having Everett DH or play nearly that much throughout the entirety of the year.

 

Besides all of that, it doesn't justify the Sox using the DH's they are.

Yes they did. They knew Thomas wasn't going to be ready at the start of the season, and there was question as to whether he would ever play again.

[Texsox]

If Ozzie isn't the type of manager he wants, he needs to fire him and find another one. Otherwise Kenny is just as much of a part of this as anyone.

 

But that is too simple

(and correct)

for a message board.

[Ranger]

At the end of the day, I think I just wasted 15 minutes of my life with this post because I think Ozzie's just bored of Spring Training and just spewing random BS ideas rather than actually thinking about what he says (though I sometimes think he never thinks about what he says).

 

Somebody else here wrote something along these lines that I think is the most important thought in this entire thread. Unfortunately, I'm too lazy to go find it, but:

 

Why is anyone freaking about this? Two things about this are true...just think about it:

 

1) If Kotsay is batting third, and he fails there, they aren't going to keep him there and he will have a pretty short leash.

 

and

 

2) If Kotsay is batting third, and he stays there, that means he's hitting really well. In which case, why would anyone complain about a number 3 hitter that's tearing the cover off the ball?

 

But really, the most likely truth is:

 

3) Kotsay really isn't going to bat third and Ozzie doesn't mean what he's saying. And even if Kotsay does bat third, it will hardly ever happen.

 

At any rate, none of those three are worth getting worked up over.

[hogan873]

Somebody else here wrote something along these lines that I think is the most important thought in this entire thread. Unfortunately, I'm too lazy to go find it, but:

 

Why is anyone freaking about this? Two things about this are true...just think about it:

 

1) If Kotsay is batting third, and he fails there, they aren't going to keep him there and he will have a pretty short leash.

 

and

 

2) If Kotsay is batting third, and he stays there, that means he's hitting really well. In which case, why would anyone complain about a number 3 hitter that's tearing the cover off the ball?

 

But really, the most likely truth is:

 

3) Kotsay really isn't going to bat third and Ozzie doesn't mean what he's saying. And even if Kotsay does bat third, it will hardly ever happen.

 

At any rate, none of those three are worth getting worked up over.

Thank you. I was surprised as I read this thread at the hate and venom and threats and vomiting. You're absolutely right. One of these three statements is correct. And if Kotsay is hitting the ball well and continues doing so, let him play. I agree that he's a great bench bat, and more than likely that is what he will end up being primarily. But why not use him if he's hot. Who cares how it happens if the Sox win some damn games.

[ThunderBolt]

Thank you. I was surprised as I read this thread at the hate and venom and threats and vomiting. You're absolutely right. One of these three statements is correct. And if Kotsay is hitting the ball well and continues doing so, let him play. I agree that he's a great bench bat, and more than likely that is what he will end up being primarily. But why not use him if he's hot. Who cares how it happens if the Sox win some damn games.

You’re operating under the assumption that his spring training numbers are going to transfer directly into the regular season. This is almost certainly not going to be the case, and if it is it likely won’t last. His career numbers are trending downward, his split stats tend to agree with the theory that this is a terrible idea. If this doesn’t work, we can move him, that’s all well and good. But the implications of this not working are us losing a couple of games that we shouldn’t have lost. That doesn’t sit well with me.

[greg775]

It's funny that one of the options we're considering is Ozzie didn't mean what he said. It's funny to have a skipper that says so much stuff we have to assume he didn't mean it.

I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't mean it. Oz is Oz.

 

[iamshack]

Somebody else here wrote something along these lines that I think is the most important thought in this entire thread. Unfortunately, I'm too lazy to go find it, but:

 

Why is anyone freaking about this? Two things about this are true...just think about it:

 

1) If Kotsay is batting third, and he fails there, they aren't going to keep him there and he will have a pretty short leash.

 

and

 

2) If Kotsay is batting third, and he stays there, that means he's hitting really well. In which case, why would anyone complain about a number 3 hitter that's tearing the cover off the ball?

 

But really, the most likely truth is:

 

3) Kotsay really isn't going to bat third and Ozzie doesn't mean what he's saying. And even if Kotsay does bat third, it will hardly ever happen.

 

At any rate, none of those three are worth getting worked up over.

 

While I generally agree with you Mr. Rongey, have we really reached the point where we find it acceptable for Ozzie to try any cockamamie idea he might come up with just because if it ultimately fails, he will be forced to correct it? What is the cost of all the failed experiments in the first place? And does the success rate of said experiences justify the continued experimentation?

 

Is it acceptable for Ozzie to bat Pierre in the clean-up spot because ultimately it will prove ineffective and therefore will eventually be corrected?

Edited March 27, 2010 by iamshack

[hogan873]

You’re operating under the assumption that his spring training numbers are going to transfer directly into the regular season. This is almost certainly not going to be the case, and if it is it likely won’t last. His career numbers are trending downward, his split stats tend to agree with the theory that this is a terrible idea. If this doesn’t work, we can move him, that’s all well and good. But the implications of this not working are us losing a couple of games that we shouldn’t have lost. That doesn’t sit well with me.

Well, I am saying that his numbers MAY transfer directly. I did note that more than likely he will end up being a solid bench bat. What I am saying is, if he's hot, use him until he's not. Let's just hope that Ozzie realizes when he's not hot anymore.

[GREEDY]

I am generally a Kotsay supporter (playing RF against RH SP)....

 

BUT

 

How is this possibly acceptable:

1) If Kotsay is batting third, and he fails there, they aren't going to keep him there and he will have a pretty short leash.

 

You cannot bat a 34 year old guy with a career OPS of .750, third in an American League lineup, and expect anything but failure, so why bat him there in the first place?

 

3) Kotsay really isn't going to bat third and Ozzie doesn't mean what he's saying. And even if Kotsay does bat third, it will hardly ever happen.

 

So.... basically you are saying that if your first two points fail to defend Ozzie's case for batting Kotsay third, it really doesn't matter because Ozzie didn't mean what he said?

[Ranger]

You’re operating under the assumption that his spring training numbers are going to transfer directly into the regular season. This is almost certainly not going to be the case, and if it is it likely won’t last. His career numbers are trending downward, his split stats tend to agree with the theory that this is a terrible idea. If this doesn’t work, we can move him, that’s all well and good. But the implications of this not working are us losing a couple of games that we shouldn’t have lost. That doesn’t sit well with me.

 

Nobody said they were going to transfer directly. But you can't be certain that they won't, at least for a short time. Obviously, the likelihood is that he is not going to hit .420 this year. But, if he happens to carry that over into the season for a couple of weeks, there wouldn't be any harm in him batting 3rd for those couple of weeks. And even if they try to ride the hot hand of a short period, and he does not hit well for that short period, he's probably not going to cost them 2 games. I think you're putting too much weight on it.

 

While I generally agree with you Mr. Rongey, have we really reached the point where we find it acceptable for Ozzie to try any cockamamie idea he might come up with just because if it ultimately fails, he will be forced to correct it? What is the cost of all the failed experiments in the first place? And does the success rate of said experiences justify the continued experimentation?

 

Is it acceptable for Ozzie to bat Pierre in the clean-up spot because ultimately it will prove ineffective and therefore will eventually be corrected?

 

See above.

 

I am generally a Kotsay supporter (playing RF against RH SP)....

 

BUT

 

How is this possibly acceptable:

 

You cannot bat a 34 year old guy with a career OPS of .750, third in an American League lineup, and expect anything but failure, so why bat him there in the first place?

 

So.... basically you are saying that if your first two points fail to defend Ozzie's case for batting Kotsay third, it really doesn't matter because Ozzie didn't mean what he said?

 

I believe my rational thinking is pretty self explanatory. All I did is give you 3 reasons not to freak the F out about this whole thing. All of them are certainly valid.

 

Again, see above.

[Ranger]

Well, I am saying that his numbers MAY transfer directly. I did note that more than likely he will end up being a solid bench bat. What I am saying is, if he's hot, use him until he's not. Let's just hope that Ozzie realizes when he's not hot anymore.

 

Don't use reason around these parts, son.

[iamshack]

Nobody said they were going to transfer directly. But you can't be certain that they won't, at least for a short time. Obviously, the likelihood is that he is not going to hit .420 this year. But, if he happens to carry that over into the season for a couple of weeks, there wouldn't be any harm in him batting 3rd for those couple of weeks. And even if they try to ride the hot hand of a short period, and he does not hit well for that short period, he's probably not going to cost them 2 games. I think you're putting too much weight on it.

 

 

 

See above.

 

 

 

I believe my rational thinking is pretty self explanatory. All I did is give you 3 reasons not to freak the F out about this whole thing. All of them are certainly valid.

 

Again, see above.

 

Mr. Rongey,

You are a very reasonable man, by all accounts. I like to consider myself a reasonable man as well. The reason I say this is because we have very similar views, in that there is no reason to get too excited about an issue here or there, as one or two things usually does not cause enough of a ripple to really make much of a wave. However, I believe that eventually, one cannot simply dismiss all these small issues, because eventually they do all add up. They do make a difference when they have been allowed to collect and cumulate. We are not so much better (or any better at all, to be frank) than some of our division rivals that we can afford to underperform on many levels. Our margin for error is simply not great.

 

Therefore, while I, too, find it a bit rash to be alarmed by each and every one of Ozzie's idiosyncracies, or by a player here or a player there underperforming, the sum of these gaffes certainly can cost this team a division, and therefore is cause, perhaps, for closer inspection. I think that over the course of both Ozzie and Kenny's tenure, it is these smaller issues and imperfections that cause us to miss out on division titles we should have won, maybe a playoff series we could have won, in other words, a few seasons lost. In my humble opionion, these are the corrections that should be focused upon; these are the errors in judgment that must be corrected and must not be repeated; the decisions that Ozzie can not contnue to make if he truly wishes to become one of the elite managers in the game.

 

I do not think it helps anyone to continually accept them as "this alone likely won't cost us anything..."

[SI1020]

Don't use reason around these parts, son.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to disagree with Kotsay batting third.

[ThunderBolt]

Don't use reason around these parts, son.

Reason? As opposed to what logic and statistics? I’m usually inclined to optimism Ranger, but not in the face of reason. My reason. This usually concedes with statistical trends and career numbers. All of which seem to point to Mark Kotsay hitting third being a bad idea. Now, I could defy this reason, in the face of embracing blue skies and Ozzie’s idiosyncrasies or I could, as i did with Dewayne Wise leading off and in center field, wait for this to fail. It’s not the most fun I could ever have, but it’s probably the most realistic option I have.

[hogan873]

Don't use reason around these parts, son.

My bad.

[ThunderBolt]

It's amazing how quickly we've made the transition from the 2009 "Your Love" White Sox to the 2010 "If Wishes were Horses" White Sox. Maybe if I close my eyes and chant "Ozzie" three times fast we can bat Omar Vizquel leadoff with Kyle McCulloch pitching opening day.

[Ranger]

It's amazing how quickly we've made the transition from the 2009 "Your Love" White Sox to the 2010 "If Wishes were Horses" White Sox. Maybe if I close my eyes and chant "Ozzie" three times fast we can bat Omar Vizquel leadoff with Kyle McCulloch pitching opening day.

 

Your problem is that you are equating my saying the Kotsay-batting-third reaction is an overreaction to some sort of hyperoptimistic view of the team. I didn't say that, and I said nothing like that. What I said was that there is no need to overreact to what Ozzie said and I gave three good reasons why we shouldn't.

 

If Ozzie does, in fact, decide to bat Kotsay third to start the season (which I kind of doubt), it isn't going to last very long and I don't think it's going to cost them anything. You're acting as if Ozzie is going to put him there, he's going to fail miserabely, but Ozzie is going to keep him there for the entire season anyway. That, I can guarantee you, is NOT going to happen.

 

What I don't have a problem with is if the manager decides to take advantage of the guy that's hot and see if that carries over into the season, if for just a bit. And if it doesn't work, he'll abandon it quickly.

 

Look, I don't think Kotsay will hit like this in the regular season, but there is also no guarantee that he is NOT going to start off hot. The baseball season is a LONG one, and teams try out a lot of things over the course of a year. I will be shocked, absolutely shocked, if Mark Kotsay costs the Sox the division because he was batting third. That's all.

 

But, let me reiterate once again, that I don't think he's going to hit there in the first place.

[Balta1701]

If Ozzie does, in fact, decide to bat Kotsay third to start the season (which I kind of doubt), it isn't going to last very long and I don't think it's going to cost them anything. You're acting as if Ozzie is going to put him there, he's going to fail miserabely, but Ozzie is going to keep him there for the entire season anyway. That, I can guarantee you, is NOT going to happen.

 

What I don't have a problem with is if the manager decides to take advantage of the guy that's hot and see if that carries over into the season, if for just a bit. And if it doesn't work, he'll abandon it quickly.

 

Look, I don't think Kotsay will hit like this in the regular season, but there is also no guarantee that he is NOT going to start off hot. The baseball season is a LONG one, and teams try out a lot of things over the course of a year. I will be shocked, absolutely shocked, if Mark Kotsay costs the Sox the division because he was batting third. That's all.

 

But, let me reiterate once again, that I don't think he's going to hit there in the first place.

Ranger, I'm just going to add...I really hope you're right.

[Princess Dye]

People are really nitpicking with Chris here. All he's indicating that Kotsay is not that farfetched a notion for hitting higher in the lineup. When you look at all the OBPs up and down this lineup, it's hard to argue too stridently for anyone, be it Kotsay or anyone else.

 

Do we call Beckham and CQ sure things to produce? No. They're high up in the lineup because it's the most sensible leap of faith to make. Everyone else is right behind em in being x-factors of varying shapes n' sizes.

 

This is the kind of lineup where you could see tons of shuffling if things arent starting out great.

Edited March 28, 2010 by Princess Dye

[scenario]

Mark Kotsay should NOT be batting third for any competitive MLB team. Period.

 

We should not be sitting around coming up with rationalizations for making an obviously bad baseball decision.

 

And if Ozzie thinks it's a good idea, he should have his head examined.

 

 

[bmags]

Um, I have a feeling that what ozzie could consider a success for kotsay at third would not match up with what reasonable production for batting third would be. If he's batting .280 with horrible power in that position i'm sure ozzie would keep him there.