Single biggest problem with the Sox over the past decade

[caulfield12]

What the White Sox actually did right...

 

Brandon McCarthy, 17th round, 2002, $40,000 signing bonus

Chris B. Young, OF, 16th round, 2001

Aaron Rowand, 1998, 1st round (35th overall), $575,000

Joe Crede, 1996, 5th round

Mark Buehrle, 1998, 38th round, $150,000 signing bonus

Ryan Sweeney, 2003, 2nd round/52nd pick, $785,000

Jeremy Reed, 2002, 2nd round/59th pick, $650,000

Brandon Allen, 2004, 5th round

Chris Getz, 2005, 4th round, $225,000 signing bonus

Gio Gonzalez, 2004, 1st round, 38th pick, $850,000

Anthony Carter, 2005, 26th round

Daniel Hudson, 2008, 5th round, $180,000

Clayton Richard, 2005, 8th round, $78,000

Jon Rauch, 1999, 3rd round/99th pick...would go on to become the #1 prospect in baseball before the torn labrum and surgery

Dexter Carter, 2008, 13th round

Trayce Thompson, 2009

 

And, of course, Beckham and Andrew Mitchell, who I will never fault KW even if he never makes it back from his injury, it was a great "upside" pick.

Edited April 19, 2010 by caulfield12

[DBAHO]

That hasn't stopped other big-market teams from having big draft budgets. With the way agents run baseball, enough elite prospects slip in the draft where they can be gobbled up in the 15-30 range, but the Sox refuse to play hardball and instead take the Kyle McCulloch's, Lance Broadway's, Royce Ring's of the world -- the easy signs (which is not a terrible thing if they make up for it later in the draft, but they don't). The Sox have rarely taken signability risk anywhere in the draft.

I think that has changed over the past couple of seasons. You don't see the Sox drafting the likes of Broadway with early picks anymore, which has been a welcome philosophical change. Thompson was a risky pick and the Sox signed him.

 

Obviously because they don't deal with Bora$$ clients, they're not going to shell out big bucks in the draft that way. You can still get pretty good talent though if you draft right.

[caulfield12]

How many Boras clients do the Twins have?

 

 

[Balta1701]

How many Boras clients do the Twins have?

I'm not sure they have any.

[Texsox]

The Twins won the WS in 1987 and 1991. How long do the White Sox get to live off of 2005 before it doesn't count at all?

 

 

I guess we just have different versions of "success"

 

2000-2009

 

Twins- 5 postseason appearances, 6 PS wins, 1 DS win

'Hose- 3 postseason appearances, 11 PS wins, 1 DS win, 1 pennant, 1 ring

 

I know, I know, 2005 doesn't count anymore. But really, 2 more appearances and 1/2 the number of wins is "success"? I've always viewed success as winning championships, not divisional crowns in a s*** division.

 

And lets also remember that they will have at least 25% of their payroll dedicated to one player (yes he's a top 3 in the game) and unless they plan on being in the 9 figure range for the next 8 years, that's quite a big risk for them.

 

Thanks. Saved me some typing.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Indians don't really scare me because of their bullpen....their idiotic trade of Franklin Gutierrez and bringing in Kerry Wood...I don't know, without Hafner and an ailing Sizemore, they're just not as dangerous to me.

 

Cabrera looks like he could be a keeper...but for every Choo, there's a Peralta, Hafner, Marte or Josh Barfield behind them.

 

They're going to need a lot more quality pitching, and that takes time to develop. Westbrook won't be around much longer, and Carmona's been inconsistent (good this year, but 2/3 starts were against us). Losing Lee and Sabathia really set them back. Masterson's looked very good for them.

 

You're right, they really replenished their minor league system with all those trades (DeRosa and V-Mart too), but I'm not seeing them coming close to Minnesota, simply because their woeful attendance will depress their payroll and put them into the same situation the A's are in with young talent getting into years 4-5-6.

 

That said, I think they have a much brigher long-term future than the Tigers, who are a veteran ballclub but they also have Austin Jackson, Sizemore, Raburn, Clete Thomas, Ryan Perry, Porcello....a lot more good, young talent than the Sox I'm afraid.

 

I was talking, more or less, 2-3 years from now. Not necessarily 2010. Shapiro has done an amazing job over the last few years in turning older, past their prime vets and all-star caliber players they were sure to lose through FA into young/cheap talent that you can legitimately move forward with into the future. You mentioned the Gutierrez trade and the Wood signing. The former obviously being a bad trade. Wood is gone after this year. So that's nothing to dwell on. But what about the doozies Shaprio has been able to pull off?

 

Eduardo Perez for Asdrubal Cabrera.

Ben Broussard for Shin Chin Choo and some other scrub I can't remember.

Casey Blake for Carlos Santana and another player that escapes my memory.

Mark Derosa for Chris Perez.

 

We've seen first hand how good Cabrera/Choo are. Carlos Santana for Casey Blake was a steal of epic proportions. Santana, along with Posey/Montero, are the 3 best catching prospects in baseball. And Chris Perez for an aging Mark Derosa is another tremendous value. They got premium talent in the Sabathia/Lee/Martinez trades. Matt Laporta, Michael Brantley, Justin Masterson, Jason Knapp, Nick Hagadone and Carlos Carrasco are all considered very good to elite prospects. They've also drafted well the last few years. Alex White at #15 was considered a steal. And he's already been impressive at high A (though it's a small sample size). They're just really stacked. Of course, like all farm systems, you'll have guys that produce and guys that flame out. But if even half of these guys come through for them, they'll be a force again sooner rather than later.

 

 

[Big Hurtin]

Let's compare with White Sox blown draft picks

 

1999---Jason Stumm, 1st round/15th pick, $1,750,00

1999---Matt Ginter, 1st round/22nd pick, $1,275,000

1999---Danny Wright, 2nd round/64th pick

2000---Joe Borchard, 1st round/12th pick, $5,300,000

2001---Kris Honel, 1st round/16th pick, $1,780,000

2002---Royce Ring, 1st round/18th pick

2003---Brian Anderson, 1st round/15th pick, $1,650,000

2004---Josh Fields, 1st round/18th pick, $1,550,000

2005---Lance Broadway, 1st round/15th pick, $1,570,000

2006---Kyle McCulloch, 1st round, 29th pick, $1,050,000

2007---Aaron Poreda, 1st round, 25th pick, $1,200,000

 

That list is depressing. You can't really complain about not having high enough draft picks when you completely blow the ones you do get.

 

[joeynach]

Isnt the draft budget just a function of the quality of players we are able to select. The better the draft picks, meaning the higher the picks, the more $$ we are going to spend. If we keep drafting late picks, lower talent picks, then our draft spending will be lower.

[maggsmaggs]

Isnt the draft budget just a function of the quality of players we are able to select. The better the draft picks, meaning the higher the picks, the more $$ we are going to spend. If we keep drafting late picks, lower talent picks, then our draft spending will be lower.

Not really. Top prospects fall all the time due to bonus demands. Just look at the Tigers, they nabbed Porcello and their recent top prospect Jacob Turner (both consensus top HS pitchers in the draft) late b/c of their bonus demands. Also, you have fringe first-round picks who asks for seven-figure bonuses that get picked up in the 5- to 15-round range.

[Dick Allen]

That list is depressing. You can't really complain about not having high enough draft picks when you completely blow the ones you do get.

The biggest misconception that has been used about past White Sox drafts has been they picked low so they had nothing to work with. Just some of the picks in the 2005 draft after Broadway, the "safe" pick:

Jacoby Ellsbury

Matt Garza

Colby Rasmus

Luke Hochever

Clay Bucholtz

Nolan Reimold

Kevin Slowey

Yunel Escobar

 

What we don't know is if the problem was recognizing talent, developing talent or both. Perhaps if Broadway was drafted by someone else he may have been useful. I doubt it. Maybe if the above had been drafted by the Sox, they may have been busts.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Dick Allen

[joeynach]

The biggest misconception that has been used about past White Sox drafts has been they picked low so they had nothing to work with. Just some of the picks in the 2005 draft after Broadway, the "safe" pick:

Jacoby Ellsbury

Matt Garza

Colby Rasmus

Luke Hochever

Clay Bucholtz

Nolan Reimold

Kevin Slowey

Yunel Escobar

 

What we don't know is if the problem was recognizing talent, developing talent or both. Perhaps if Broadway was drafted by someone else he may have been useful. I doubt it. Maybe if the above had been drafted by the Sox, they may have been busts.

 

So many variables.

[jenksycat]

Wondering how AP was a "blown pick" when he was the main point of a trade for Peavy

[Big Hurtin]

Wondering how AP was a "blown pick" when he was the main point of a trade for Peavy

 

That's the exception, IMO. The rest of his list looks pretty crappy considering where they were picked.

 

[Flash Tizzle]

The biggest misconception that has been used about past White Sox drafts has been they picked low so they had nothing to work with. Just some of the picks in the 2005 draft after Broadway, the "safe" pick:

Jacoby Ellsbury

Matt Garza

Colby Rasmus

Luke Hochever

Clay Bucholtz

Nolan Reimold

Kevin Slowey

Yunel Escobar

People around here for many years were disgusting me with the excuses used to explain the lack of development in the minor league department. Our draft position was often cited. I honestly believed what I read was echoed by management -- most notably that because Williams could deal prospects for proven veterans, all we needed was to draft people who could perform well in the minors and then ship them off. As if other teams don't have scouts. Someone should browse through the 2005/2006 draft threads, and I guarantee you'll find that exact argument thrown about by respected posters.

 

What annoys me is, it's not even as if we'd be upset if several more million was spent on a 1st or 2nd round pick that ultimately busted. That doesn't mean breaking the bank for an athletic Joe Borchard, but instead take advantage of quality players -- whether high school or college -- who drop due to sign ability concerns. I'd take Nevin Griffith a million times over Donny Lucy, even if it means one person reaches the majors and the other never makes AAA. Yes, the draft is much less certain than other sports; but with that knowledge, why not improve your odds of developing a potential #1, instead of another #5. Or a studly 1B instead of another 4th OF?

 

Although I'm pleased that, atleast on the surface (Buddy Bell, Williams stating his committal to a strong system), it appears we're more concerned with the draft.

 

Also, I'll end on this question concerning our international prowess -- name me the last contributing player from Latin America that was developed through our system? Hint -- you'll have to go back a LONG time.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Flash Tizzle

[maggsmaggs]

People around here for many years were disgusting me with the excuses used to explain the lack of development in the minor league department. Our draft position was often cited. I honestly believed what I read was echoed by management -- most notably that because Williams could deal prospects for proven veterans, all we needed was to draft people who could perform well in the minors and then ship them off. As if other teams don't have scouts. Someone should browse through the 2005/2006 draft threads, and I guarantee you'll find that exact argument thrown about by respected posters.

 

What annoys me is, it's not even as if we'd be upset if several more million was spent on a 1st or 2nd round pick that ultimately busted. That doesn't mean breaking the bank for an athletic Joe Borchard, but instead take advantage of quality players -- whether high school or college -- who drop due to sign ability concerns. I'd take Nevin Griffith a million times over Donny Lucy, even if it means one person reaches the majors and the other never makes AAA. Yes, the draft is much less certain than other sports; but with that knowledge, why not improve your odds of developing a potential #1, instead of another #5. Or a studly 1B instead of another 4th OF?

 

Although I'm pleased that, atleast on the surface (Buddy Bell, Williams stating his committal to a strong system), it appears we're more concerned with the draft.

 

Also, I'll end on this question concerning our international prowess -- name me the last contributing player from Latin America that was developed through our system? Hint -- you'll have to go back a LONG time.

It has to be Carlos Lee.

[southsider2k5]

I was talking, more or less, 2-3 years from now. Not necessarily 2010. Shapiro has done an amazing job over the last few years in turning older, past their prime vets and all-star caliber players they were sure to lose through FA into young/cheap talent that you can legitimately move forward with into the future. You mentioned the Gutierrez trade and the Wood signing. The former obviously being a bad trade. Wood is gone after this year. So that's nothing to dwell on. But what about the doozies Shaprio has been able to pull off?

 

Eduardo Perez for Asdrubal Cabrera.

Ben Broussard for Shin Chin Choo and some other scrub I can't remember.

Casey Blake for Carlos Santana and another player that escapes my memory.

Mark Derosa for Chris Perez.

 

We've seen first hand how good Cabrera/Choo are. Carlos Santana for Casey Blake was a steal of epic proportions. Santana, along with Posey/Montero, are the 3 best catching prospects in baseball. And Chris Perez for an aging Mark Derosa is another tremendous value. They got premium talent in the Sabathia/Lee/Martinez trades. Matt Laporta, Michael Brantley, Justin Masterson, Jason Knapp, Nick Hagadone and Carlos Carrasco are all considered very good to elite prospects. They've also drafted well the last few years. Alex White at #15 was considered a steal. And he's already been impressive at high A (though it's a small sample size). They're just really stacked. Of course, like all farm systems, you'll have guys that produce and guys that flame out. But if even half of these guys come through for them, they'll be a force again sooner rather than later.

 

They also have an empty stadium and no payroll, along with a team that has sucked for years. I kinda doubt Sox fans would put up with that for years.

[dmbjeff]

What the White Sox actually did right...

 

Brandon McCarthy, 17th round, 2002, $40,000 signing bonus

Chris B. Young, OF, 16th round, 2001

Aaron Rowand, 1998, 1st round (35th overall), $575,000

Joe Crede, 1996, 5th round

Mark Buehrle, 1998, 38th round, $150,000 signing bonus

Ryan Sweeney, 2003, 2nd round/52nd pick, $785,000

Jeremy Reed, 2002, 2nd round/59th pick, $650,000

Brandon Allen, 2004, 5th round

Chris Getz, 2005, 4th round, $225,000 signing bonus

Gio Gonzalez, 2004, 1st round, 38th pick, $850,000

Anthony Carter, 2005, 26th round

Daniel Hudson, 2008, 5th round, $180,000

Clayton Richard, 2005, 8th round, $78,000

Jon Rauch, 1999, 3rd round/99th pick...would go on to become the #1 prospect in baseball before the torn labrum and surgery

Dexter Carter, 2008, 13th round

Trayce Thompson, 2009

 

And, of course, Beckham and Andrew Mitchell, who I will never fault KW even if he never makes it back from his injury, it was a great "upside" pick.

 

Half of this list is garbage or unproven. You really can't say a pick we made in 2009 was a good move when he is 2-3 years away from the majors. As for the guys who helped us land Freddy, Peavy, Swisher, Danks etc, they have all been below average major leaguers to this point.

 

We have just drafted horribly from the mid 90's until now. Beckham, Buehrle, Crede, Rowand, Rauch and perhaps Chris Young are the only guys to have been at least average MLB'ers at this point. That is a pretty crappy list.

[caulfield12]

Jordan Danks was another player that comes to mind with signability questions that we brought into the fold.

 

That encouraged quite a few around here, as well as the obvious connection to his brother...and feeling more comfortable making the White Sox his long-term hope to stick around because of that fact. We'll have to wait and see.

 

KW just might surprise everyone and deal Danks if he can't get him to sign like Floyd did. MAYBE.

[Jordan4life_2007]

They also have an empty stadium and no payroll, along with a team that has sucked for years. I kinda doubt Sox fans would put up with that for years.

 

They were a win away from the World Series just three years ago. The attendance/payroll issues go hand in hand. Which makes it even more important for them to build through the farm (ala Rays). And you're right about Sox fans. Our fanbase is ass fickle as they come. We have to win the World Series to register sell-out crowds with any regularity. It's funny, though. We've been to the playoffs a whopping 5 times in the last 26 years, and Sox fans act like they're above and beyond any kind of "rebuilding" project. Like it's cool to finish in third every year as long as we're spending 100+ million. Don't get me wrong, I'd much rather not have to go that route. But if you told me that we'd suffer a down year or two but the reward would, or at least could be, a 3-5 year run in which we legitimately contended (not just hope we can contend due to the division being weak), I wouldn't be that against it.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Jordan4life

[ThunderBolt]

I might take heat for this but i have no problem with the White Sox drafting Joe Borchard. He, Nady, and Tag Bozied looked like elite prospects coming out of California. I can't blame the White Sox for biting on him

[SoxAce]

I might take heat for this but i have no problem with the White Sox drafting Joe Borchard. He, Nady, and Tag Bozied looked like elite prospects coming out of California. I can't blame the White Sox for biting on him

 

I hated him back in 2003 when I first started following prospects. I also hated the pick even more when I saw his college numbers despite never seeing him play in Stanford. Not only did he K 57 times his final year in college (which is like striking out 150+ times in the MiLB and 200+ in the MLB) he walked fewer times. Usually the norm for a high K hitter is around 45-50 times. Even Fields had a better walk rate (thats the pick I didn't mind at all) and K'd less than Borchard. I didn't mind Broadway as much as McColluch since Lance put up the college numbers. Had a nice change and great, great movement despite the velocity. Would had been better served being a round or two later pick though. The McColluch pick however even had other GMs and scouts scratching their heads over that one. By far my least favorite 1st round pick in that decade and pretty much all around. (Lucy, Long, Ring all included too) God that 06' draft was horrible.

Edited April 20, 2010 by SoxAce

[kitekrazy]

I think some organizations go wrong when they draft athletes instead of baseball players. There is a difference. When guys going into the draft have certain deficits, I would think those aren't going to go away since most players started the game at a very young age.

 

I look at guys like Josh Fields who couldn't catch a baseball. When exactly was that suppose to get better? In Little League and High School a player can get away with doing a lot of things bad except for it's hitting. All of those weaknesses show up in the big leagues. If they aren't fixed before entering some form of professional baseball, chances are it will never change. Kerry Wood is another example of that.

[caulfield12]

Robin Ventura worked very hard to go from and average or even below average defender at OSU to make himself into a Gold Glove level player at the hot corner...I don't know how to explain Fields, part of it is lack of instincts (Joe Crede was never close to fast, but he was QUICK) and part of it was simply "baseball IQ" or whatever you want to call it.

 

Maybe because he was never 100% devoted to playing baseball....before bad oe lazy habits had become ingrained that were too hard to unlearn or retrain?

 

It's not like we never have had terrifically athletic players...it's just that Borchard, Fields, Brian West, Brian Anderson never seemed to have high aptitude for the mental part of the game, like Beckham does, but Alexei Ramirez (another athletically gifted player), does not.

 

At a certain point, it's not teachable or coachable.

 

Like Borchard, he was the nicest, most well-spoken, most humble kid in the world...perfect player to build a franchise around. I think his off-the-field qualities enhanced his projectability and the reach became justifiable, plus he was left-handed.