Are the White Sox relevant? Is 2007-itis setting in?

[NorthSideSox72]

Not that I want to parrot Ranger here, but I have a feeling tonight's game is not going to come down to Kotsay and Vizquel, but instead, whether or not Peavy can get it done again.

I'd agree that the biggest thing to watch in this game is Peavy. If he blows up again, the worry meter goes up.

 

[fathom]

Not that I want to parrot Ranger here, but I have a feeling tonight's game is not going to come down to Kotsay and Vizquel, but instead, whether or not Peavy can get it done again.

 

I hate that philosophy so much, as you don't always have to win games 2-1. For example, we won Peavy's horrendous start in Toronto because we had an unlikely hero in Teahen step up.

[caulfield12]

You quote bullpen ERA as a conclusive stat.

 

Linebrink was a lockdown set-up man in 2008...he was nails until he got hurt. Of course, after he went down, the bullpen wasn't as effective. Everyone had clearly defined roles, even moreso than now.

 

But it's when the starting pitching and bullpen were working in unison that we won the majority of our games and got the division lead. Then we just had to hold on and gut things out on a day by day basis for the final 4-6 weeks after Quentin and Crede went down and Linebrink couldn't get back to dominating form.

 

What does Hawk always say? It's not what you do, it's WHEN you do it. We've had a number of close games this year that the bullpen gave up late runs under pressure/duress. I'm not blaming them completely, the offense is putting too much pressure on the pitching staff...every little mistake is magnified.

 

But if our pen was so perfect in 2010, we'd be 8-7 or 9-6 right now.

Edited April 22, 2010 by caulfield12

[ThunderBolt]

Not that I want to parrot Ranger here, but I have a feeling tonight's game is not going to come down to Kotsay and Vizquel, but instead, whether or not Peavy can get it done again.

Yeah, he's going to have too. Why? Because Kotsay and Vizquel are in the lineup. It's a roundabout way of looking at things but it's true. We're forcing our pitchers to compensate for the s***ty lineups we have playing behind them.

[fathom]

You quote bullpen ERA as a conclusive stat.

 

Linebrink was a lockdown set-up man in 2008...he was nails until he got hurt. Of course, after he went down, the bullpen wasn't as effective.

 

But it's when the starting pitching and bullpen were working in unison that we won the majority of our games and got the division lead. Then we just had to hold on and gut things out on a day by day basis for the final 4-6 weeks after Quentin and Crede went down and Linebrink couldn't get back to dominating form.

 

What does Hawk always say? It's not what you do, it's WHEN you do it. We've had a number of close games this year that the bullpen gave up late runs under pressure/duress. I'm not blaming them completely, the offense is putting too much pressure on the pitching staff...every little mistake is magnified.

 

But if our pen was so perfect in 2010, we'd be 8-7 or 9-6 right now.

 

Well said! For as good as the numbers look, we've lost a few games we should have won due to our bullpen (Thornton in particular).

[NorthSideSox72]

You quote bullpen ERA as a conclusive stat.

 

Linebrink was a lockdown set-up man in 2008...he was nails until he got hurt. Of course, after he went down, the bullpen wasn't as effective. Everyone had clearly defined roles, even moreso than now.

 

But it's when the starting pitching and bullpen were working in unison that we won the majority of our games and got the division lead. Then we just had to hold on and gut things out on a day by day basis for the final 4-6 weeks after Quentin and Crede went down and Linebrink couldn't get back to dominating form.

 

What does Hawk always say? It's not what you do, it's WHEN you do it. We've had a number of close games this year that the bullpen gave up late runs under pressure/duress. I'm not blaming them completely, the offense is putting too much pressure on the pitching staff...every little mistake is magnified.

 

But if our pen was so perfect in 2010, we'd be 8-7 or 9-6 right now.

Seriously? You think the bullpen, leading the league in K's and near the league lead with a 2.42 ERA, is why we aren't 8-7 or 9-6? You have got to be joking.

 

The bullpen is the LAST thing to worry about right now on this team.

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Well said! For as good as the numbers look, we've lost a few games we should have won due to our bullpen (Thornton in particular).

Oh come on fathom, you've seen enough baseball to know that is complete crap. Bullpens give up runs. The Sox pen is right now the best, or one of the best, in the game.

 

I seriously feel like some of you guys are taking crazy pills. The team is hitting .217 - 2 1 7 - .176 w/RISP. The starting pitchers are in the bottom half in ERA. The defense is making blunders. Ozzie is running Kotsay out there as a 3-hole hitter. And you blame the bullpen? Absurd.

[iamshack]

Yeah, he's going to have too. Why? Because Kotsay and Vizquel are in the lineup. It's a roundabout way of looking at things but it's true. We're forcing our pitchers to compensate for the s***ty lineups we have playing behind them.

I understand that, but you've got to look at things from Ozzie's point of view and from more of a distance at times.

 

Is this our optimum lineup? No. Do we want Rios AND Beckham sitting out much in the same game? No.

 

But putting our optimum lineup out there hasn't resulted in runs plenty of times this season, and Ozzie has got to manage this entire ballclub and keep them ready and interested. Sitting the same 3 or 4 guys every game does not accomplish that.

 

We're going to have to prove at some point that this team can win based on it's strength - the starting pitching - and Jake Peavy needs to start earning his paycheck and prove he can shutdown an opposing lineup entirely.

[fathom]

Oh come on fathom, you've seen enough baseball to know that is complete crap. Bullpens give up runs. The Sox pen is right now the best, or one of the best, in the game.

 

I seriously feel like some of you guys are taking crazy pills. The team is hitting .217 - 2 1 7 - .176 w/RISP. The starting pitchers are in the bottom half in ERA. The defense is making blunders. Ozzie is running Kotsay out there as a 3-hole hitter. And you blame the bullpen? Absurd.

 

I knew someone would respond like this. We're just saying that the bullpen has really shined in the blowouts, but they've not performed in the clutch as well as the numbers would make you think. Except for Santos, of course, who I can't wait to see pitch in bigger situations.

[NorthSideSox72]

I knew someone would respond like this. We're just saying that the bullpen has really shined in the blowouts, but they've not performed in the clutch as well as the numbers would make you think. Except for Santos, of course, who I can't wait to see pitch in bigger situations.

I've watched most of the games this year. And I seriously think you are way off base on this. It makes zero sense, and isn't reality.

 

[fathom]

I've watched most of the games this year. And I seriously think you are way off base on this. It makes zero sense, and isn't reality.

 

Please explain...Matt Thornton blew 2 games in the first two weeks of the season, and so did Pena (though he didn't get the loss in one of them). Putz blew another game as well. Our bullpen has had no problem retiring guys in blowouts though up until last night.

[caulfield12]

I've maintained all along this bullpen is the most talented one we've ever had, with the obvious exception of Williams.

 

If you substitute Threets from the LH side at 95 MPH with control...maybe the best bullpen in Sox history, despite Jenks' shakiness.

 

Of course, I know the 2005 bullpen was better statistically. I'm talking about pure "stuff" and raw talent.

 

Santos is one of my favorite things about this season so far that's making it somewhat more bearable.

[NorthSideSox72]

Please explain...Matt Thornton blew 2 games in the first two weeks of the season, and so did Pena (though he didn't get the loss in one of them). Putz blew another game as well. Our bullpen has had no problem retiring guys in blowouts though up until last night.

The Sox are scoring 2 or 3 runs most games. You cannot put that kind of pressure on the staff repeatedly and expect them to hold it. This is just not at all about the pen.

 

[caulfield12]

Please explain...Matt Thornton blew 2 games in the first two weeks of the season, and so did Pena (though he didn't get the loss in one of them). Putz blew another game as well. Our bullpen has had no problem retiring guys in blowouts though up until last night.

 

 

And you shift those 3-4 games, you get an 8-7 or 9-6 record, DESPITE the offense and inconsistent starting pitching as well as defense.

 

That's one of many reasons this start is so frustrating.

 

 

[fathom]

The Sox are scoring 2 or 3 runs most games. You cannot put that kind of pressure on the staff repeatedly and expect them to hold it. This is just not at all about the pen.

 

I'm sure you've seen my posts ridiculing this offense enough to know I'm not blaming the bullpen. All I'm saying is their numbers are deceiving due to superior performances during mop-up time. This entire team sucks basically, and makes winning look very difficult.

[Steve9347]

From April 17 to May 5th during the 2008 season, the White Sox went from 9-6 to 14-17. That's a record of 5-11 during a 16 game stretch. That's a rough stretch early in the season that is 1 game worse then the one the Sox are currently on, and that team won 89 games and a division title. That offense really wasn't any better or much different, and they were just fine.

 

Sit down, relax, and enjoy baseball. It does take about 40-60 games to determine how good a team really is. I'm not about to say that everything will fix itself, but we don't know what this team is or is not capable of completely yet.

Post of the millennium.

[NorthSideSox72]

I'm sure you've seen my posts ridiculing this offense enough to know I'm not blaming the bullpen. All I'm saying is their numbers are deceiving due to superior performances during mop-up time. This entire team sucks basically, and makes winning look very difficult.

This is where you leave logic behind. "The entire team" does not suck. The bullpen has been very good, except Williams. Rios has come back nicely, Teahen is hitting (though struggling defensively), and Jones has been a pleasant surprise. Konerko looks decent. Danks looks great, MB did until yesterday. So no, the entire team does not suck.

 

2/3 of the lineup is awful, clutch hitting has been basically non-existent, Williams looks awful, and Peavy is worrisome. To lesser degrees, Thornton had a couple bad outings, and the left side of the infield looks lost on D. Those are the bad areas, and that is where the team is failing.

 

[SoxAce]

I'm sure you've seen my posts ridiculing this offense enough to know I'm not blaming the bullpen. All I'm saying is their numbers are deceiving due to superior performances during mop-up time. This entire team sucks basically, and makes winning look very difficult.

 

Definitely agree with this.

[fathom]

This is where you leave logic behind. "The entire team" does not suck. The bullpen has been very good, except Williams. Rios has come back nicely, Teahen is hitting (though struggling defensively), and Jones has been a pleasant surprise. Konerko looks decent. Danks looks great, MB did until yesterday. So no, the entire team does not suck.

 

2/3 of the lineup is awful, clutch hitting has been basically non-existent, Williams looks awful, and Peavy is worrisome. To lesser degrees, Thornton had a couple bad outings, and the left side of the infield looks lost on D. Those are the bad areas, and that is where the team is failing.

 

By entire team, I meant the offense, defense, pitching, coaching, base running. Yes, there are some bright spots for individuals. I love watching Santos pitch.

Edited April 22, 2010 by fathom

[dmbjeff]

I think Rios will be fine. AJ also SHOULD come back to his averages...but he is getting to that age for catchers, you never know when you're in your 30's.

 

What is required for Quentin and Ramirez to be as good as they were in 2008. And for Pierre and Beckham to wake up, too. Almost everything has to go right, as we said before the season.

 

But who on this team is capable of putting up Quentin May-August 2008 numbers?

 

There's only Carlos himself, Beckham and Andruw Jones that fit into that category.

 

Nearly every player comes back to his averages after a slow start. Rare cases happen sure, like Andruw Jones in 08, but seriously, almost all of these guys will hit. Patience is a virtue, you seem to lack it.

[Steve9347]

By entire team, I meant the offense, defense, pitching, coaching, base running. Yes, there are some bright spots for individuals. I love watching Santos pitch.

F*ck Santos. I brought him in in the 8th in MLB 10 the Show last night and he gave up a 3 run bomb. Not cool!

[Kyyle23]

F*ck Santos. I brought him in in the 8th in MLB 10 the Show last night and he gave up a 3 run bomb. Not cool!

 

 

user error

[LVSoxFan]

We're only at April 22 I'm hardly giving up on the team. So a bad start? Ok, it's a bad start...

[greg775]

The way I look at this is simple. You've seen this board go through the steps of AA in the last two weeks. We were fighting through the denial stage, now it seems like a sort of "acceptance" phase is going on where people are deliberately starting to tune out the White Sox and disengaging. Is that just a defense mechanism from years of being a Sox fan, a "protective" mechanism not to invest too much in something?

 

I think you are delving too deeply in the minds of fans.

The bottom line is a lot of us picked the Sox to go .500 or a little better, some people even said 90 wins in that one thread and now most everybody's expectations have been lowered dramatically.

We will watch all season and see what happens. Many of us have our favorite players and least favorite players. I hate Pierre and like Pods, but I will try not to post that for the 1,000th time in the future.

The Sox are what they are ... we shall assess their play on a daily basis and see what happens, but I think your talking about the marketing guy again was a bit old and made everybody cringe a bit.

[caulfield12]

I think you are delving too deeply in the minds of fans.

The bottom line is a lot of us picked the Sox to go .500 or a little better, some people even said 90 wins in that one thread and now most everybody's expectations have been lowered dramatically.

We will watch all season and see what happens. Many of us have our favorite players and least favorite players. I hate Pierre and like Pods, but I will try not to post that for the 1,000th time in the future.

The Sox are what they are ... we shall assess their play on a daily basis and see what happens, but I think your talking about the marketing guy again was a bit old and made everybody cringe a bit.

 

Look tomorrow at MLB attendance.

 

There's a certain team 45 minutes east of your location that will be leading the White Sox for the first time this decade in that category. This, without the "real" Zach Greinke but a very entertaining offense, at least.

 

They play the Twins at home, coming off winning 2/3 in TOR...it will be an interesting attendance battle with the White Sox this weekend.