What a disaster this rotating DH NL lineup idea is...

[MattZakrowski]

Like which was the worst disaster, 9/11 or the Titanic.

 

9/11, and it's not even close. Nix isn't perfect, but Omar Vizquel is the sort of thing you could use to justify wars.

[kitekrazy]

l...except for the fact that the Royals and Indians MIGHT actually be worse than us

 

 

Give Kenny some more time. I'm sure he's got a few for Royals to add to the roster. Might not be worse but heading towards equal.

 

[whitesoxfan101]

If you don't think Ozzie should be fired now, you'll never be convinced. And I understand that thanks to 2005, there are some people like that out there. But yeah, this year=nightmare. It may end up 2007 ish at this rate.

[qwerty]

It has been proven by numerous studies that the peak offensively and defensively (with artificial enhancements) for every (on average) MLB player should be between 27-30 years old.

 

Yes, just because you're young (see Josh Fields, Chris Getz or Mark Teahen) doesn't make you good at anything in particular.

 

But there's NO WAY that Omar Vizquel hasn't lost something defensively if you go back and compare his range and athleticism (not to mention arm strength) to the year 2000 tape.

[DBAHO]

If you don't think Ozzie should be fired now, you'll never be convinced. And I understand that thanks to 2005, there are some people like that out there. But yeah, this year=nightmare. It may end up 2007 ish at this rate.

It is what it is, simple as that really.

 

I think everyone knows that Ozzie's far more suited to being a manager in the NL, and we've basically tried to become Minnesota v2.0, with terrible results.

[Dick Allen]

There is simply no way an AL team should have Pierre and Vizquel in the line up at the same time let alone occupy the first 2 slots in the order. You can blame Greg Walker all you want for the team's offensive woes, but with the line up starting off Pierre, Vizquel, scoring 4 runs in 9 innings was really about as good as could have been expected last night.

 

I

[whtsoxfan]

KW has really wrecked this team. You get the ball started toward "remaking" the team by trade and you always give up more than you get when you are looking for short term results. Not having taken the long view will be KW's demise when players like Getz start fulfilling their potential. The Peavy trade is really evidence of just how much KW would give up in potential for someone he thought could be a difference maker right now. In retrospect, it looks like it was done out of desperation.

 

Here's looking back on the Jake Peavy deal. So far this year, Peavy is off to a horrendous start with the White Sox. Jake was 0-2 with a 7.85 ERA in 5 starts in April and went winless in a "full" month for the first time since June of 2006 (0-3, 5.28 ERA). He lowered his ERA to 6.31 after beating the Royals.

 

Peavy went to the White Sox in a trade that sent Clayton Richard, Aaron Poreda, Adam Russell and Dexter Carter to the Padres while Jake Peavy was still on the DL.

 

What did KW give up?

 

Clayton Richard was 5-2 last year for the Padre's after the trade. Line for 2009 in SD? 12 GS 64 IP 4.08 ERA .244 BAA.

 

2010 line? 6 GS 3.34 ERA

 

Aaron Poreda was rated the #1 prospect in the White Sox entire system in 2008 by Baseball America. In the 2009 Baseball America Top Prospects listed him as the #63 prospect overall. He's got a 1.93 ERA as a AA reliever this year.

 

Adam Russell is a 6-foot-8, 255-pound AAA closer for the Padres. He had a 3.15 ERA in 15 games with the Padres last season and 2.45 ERA in Spring Training line securing one of the final spots in the bullpen. In 3.1 innings of work he did not surrendered a hit and walked just one batter. He was sent back to AAA when the Padres re-called a player that had been on the DL.

 

Dexter Carter started this season in the minor leagues in Single-A Fort Wayne. When the Padres acquired Carter last season, he was leading the Class-A South Atlantic League in strikeouts. In fact, at one point was leading ALL of the minor leagues in K's! He was 6-1 with a 2.23 ERA in 2009.

 

In 2010 Carter is a starter with the Single-A Fort Wayne is 1-3 with a 4.68 ERA in 25.0 IP and 23 K's.

 

Because Richard is producing better than Peavy, it is clear that the Padre's robbed KW. When these other players start having an impact at the MLB level(especially Poreda), KW will be looking very stupid to everyone.

[Balta1701]

Clayton Richard with a 4.08 ERA in the NL pitching in San Diego isn't anything to write home about.

 

Poreda is a AA reliever for a couple seasons in a Row. Russell got sent down, as you note.

[whitesoxfan101]

KW has really wrecked this team. You get the ball started toward "remaking" the team by trade and you always give up more than you get when you are looking for short term results. Not having taken the long view will be KW's demise when players like Getz start fulfilling their potential. The Peavy trade is really evidence of just how much KW would give up in potential for someone he thought could be a difference maker right now. In retrospect, it looks like it was done out of desperation.

 

Here's looking back on the Jake Peavy deal. So far this year, Peavy is off to a horrendous start with the White Sox. Jake was 0-2 with a 7.85 ERA in 5 starts in April and went winless in a "full" month for the first time since June of 2006 (0-3, 5.28 ERA). He lowered his ERA to 6.31 after beating the Royals.

 

Peavy went to the White Sox in a trade that sent Clayton Richard, Aaron Poreda, Adam Russell and Dexter Carter to the Padres while Jake Peavy was still on the DL.

 

What did KW give up?

 

Clayton Richard was 5-2 last year for the Padre's after the trade. Line for 2009 in SD? 12 GS 64 IP 4.08 ERA .244 BAA.

 

2010 line? 6 GS 3.34 ERA

 

Aaron Poreda was rated the #1 prospect in the White Sox entire system in 2008 by Baseball America. In the 2009 Baseball America Top Prospects listed him as the #63 prospect overall. He's got a 1.93 ERA as a AA reliever this year.

 

Adam Russell is a 6-foot-8, 255-pound AAA closer for the Padres. He had a 3.15 ERA in 15 games with the Padres last season and 2.45 ERA in Spring Training line securing one of the final spots in the bullpen. In 3.1 innings of work he did not surrendered a hit and walked just one batter. He was sent back to AAA when the Padres re-called a player that had been on the DL.

 

Dexter Carter started this season in the minor leagues in Single-A Fort Wayne. When the Padres acquired Carter last season, he was leading the Class-A South Atlantic League in strikeouts. In fact, at one point was leading ALL of the minor leagues in K's! He was 6-1 with a 2.23 ERA in 2009.

 

In 2010 Carter is a starter with the Single-A Fort Wayne is 1-3 with a 4.68 ERA in 25.0 IP and 23 K's.

 

Because Richard is producing better than Peavy, it is clear that the Padre's robbed KW. When these other players start having an impact at the MLB level(especially Poreda), KW will be looking very stupid to everyone.

 

Kenny definitely deserves a lot of blame for this mess, considering we have a payroll of about 100 million dollars, and a roster full of holes. I'm not going to blame him for the Jake Peavy trade yet though, still too early to call that one. But if you want him gone, I can't blame you. A payroll this high should produce a roster much better, and at the end of the day, KW had the power to say no to Ozzie's insane and idiotic lineup ideas, and he didn't. That's on him.

[ThunderBolt]

having taken the long view will be KW's demise when players like Getz start fulfilling their potential.

Chris Getzs' potential is roughly that of David Eckstein. I'm shaking in my boots.

[Balta1701]

Chris Getzs' potential is roughly that of David Eckstein. I'm shaking in my boots.

We have another Getz on the way up in Retherford, and CJ can probably play more positions.

[jphat007]

I put most of the blame on KW. He just put together an awful awful roster. And if he let Ozzie talk him into not getting Thome or picking up Pierre instead of keeping Pods, even more reason to hate on him, because he is the f***ing GM and he is responsible for putting together a good roster. This roster is embarrassing and is going to take some time to fix.

[Balta1701]

I put most of the blame on KW. He just put together an awful awful roster. And if he let Ozzie talk him into not getting Thome or picking up Pierre instead of keeping Pods, even more reason to hate on him, because he is the f***ing GM and he is responsible for putting together a good roster. This roster is embarrassing and is going to take some time to fix.

As I keep saying...Pierre is one of the problems on our roster...but if everyone else was doing fine, you wouldn't notice.

 

If you want to blame KW for this roster, please tell me which of these guys he should have dumped in the offseason: Beckham, Quentin, Pierzynski, Ramirez. Throw in Buehrle and Floyd while you're at it.

[caulfield12]

The only move that could have been made, and it was argued ad infinitum....was TRYING to find a taker for Jenks or non-tendering him.

 

That money could have gone to Damon/Matsui/Vladdy.

 

Hindsight is 20/20, sure, but there were quite a few that were ready to cut the cord with Jenks heading into the season.

 

The only highly-paid closer we've had in the last 20 years (unless you consider Roberto Hernandez as highly paid) was Billy Koch. We all know how well that one worked out.

 

Howry, Foulke, Takatsu, Hermanson, Flash Gordon, Thornton, Marte, Jenks, etc.

 

None of them highly-paid guys.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

The only move that could have been made, and it was argued ad infinitum....was TRYING to find a taker for Jenks or non-tendering him.

 

That money could have gone to Damon/Matsui/Vladdy.

 

Hindsight is 20/20, sure, but there were quite a few that were ready to cut the cord with Jenks heading into the season.

 

The only highly-paid closer we've had in the last 20 years (unless you consider Roberto Hernandez as highly paid) was Billy Koch. We all know how well that one worked out.

 

Howry, Foulke, Takatsu, Hermanson, Flash Gordon, Thornton, Marte, Jenks, etc.

 

None of them highly-paid guys.

 

It was tried.

[jphat007]

As I keep saying...Pierre is one of the problems on our roster...but if everyone else was doing fine, you wouldn't notice.

 

If you want to blame KW for this roster, please tell me which of these guys he should have dumped in the offseason: Beckham, Quentin, Pierzynski, Ramirez. Throw in Buehrle and Floyd while you're at it.

 

Yea, I can agree with that. So I guess there is just no blame for anyone but the players. We were just destined to be terrible this year. Still, it's going to take awhile to fix.

[Balta1701]

Why do people keep thinking that other teams are going to be thrilled to take on a guy who's struggled for so long that we're desperate to dump him? How does that make any sense to anyone?

[caulfield12]

A significant number of posters argued on behalf of retaining BBBJ. Not only that, but there was the concern that pushing Thornton to the back of the pne would further expose Williams' and KW's lack of depth in the farm system (it would have been Threets as a possible 3rd lefty). Not to mention some implicit concerns that Thornton simply doesn't have the mentality to be a good closer and would end up with a 60-75% save conversion rate.

 

Certainly there has to be 3-5 MLB GM's out there, especially in the NL, who would have been very tempted to pull the trigger, if they thought Jenks was the final piece to put them over the top. Like Milwaukee, for example.

 

Also, keeping him in the fold, there was the idea he could be traded and his contract WOULDN'T (TYPO) seem quite so egregious at $3-4 million as a rental player for a playoff contender.

Edited May 8, 2010 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

Also, keeping him in the fold, there was the idea he could be traded and his contract would seem quite so egregious at $3-4 million as a rental player for a playoff contender.

So why then do you think he's impossible to dump now? He hasn't done anything unexpected this season, except maybe even showing a better fastball that other teams are still hitting.

 

This argument is nonsense. KW should have moved him for value when other teams wouldn't have wanted him and when the other team would have been able to move him but he's unmovable now.

[caulfield12]

He's not unmovable now.

 

And he won't be in May/June/July.

 

There will be always be a market for a pitcher who threw 98 MPH yesterday, just like there are smaller ones for Putz and Linebrink, particularly in the NL.

 

Just look at the evolution of Jose Contreras' career, Jon Garland, etc. They'll all (former Sox pitchers) be perfectly fine in the NL. Those hitters haven't seen his stuff 18 games per season for 5 years like the Tigers, Indians and Twins...it will take them one-half season to adjust to him in the first place.

Edited May 8, 2010 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

So why then do you think he's impossible to dump now? He hasn't done anything unexpected this season, except maybe even showing a better fastball that other teams are still hitting.

 

This argument is nonsense. KW should have moved him for value when other teams wouldn't have wanted him and when the other team would have been able to move him but he's unmovable now.

 

 

I don't think he's impossible to dump now, I just made a typo, as you can see from the context of the rest of the sentence...

 

That said, that $7.5 million would have been better off going to a real DH.

 

That said, blow it up, take the $30 million we're guaranteeing to Pierre, Teahen, Kotsay, Vizquel, Castro and Linebrink and the franchise's future looks bright again with Aroldis Chapman and Daniel Hudson waiting in the wings.

 

We could have done just as crappily without those six players with DeAza/Danks, Flowers, Kroeger, Nix, Lucy, Santeliz, etc.

 

Would our record really be 8-10-12 games under .500 with those minor leaguers?

 

In fact, I think our record might actually be better than it is now. Those guys would play with more hunger and desire than the aforementioned veterans, feeling they have a chip on their shoulders to prove that they belong every day they're in a major league uniform. Do you get that sense from Mark Teahen, who KW set up for life?

Edited May 8, 2010 by caulfield12

[Kalapse]

He's not unmovable now.

 

And he won't be in May/June/July.

 

There will be always be a market for a pitcher who threw 98 MPH yesterday, just like there are smaller ones for Putz and Linebrink, particularly in the NL.

 

Just look at the evolution of Jose Contreras' career, Jon Garland, etc. They'll all (former Sox pitchers) be perfectly fine in the NL. Those hitters haven't seen his stuff 18 games per season for 5 years like the Tigers, Indians and Twins...it will take them one-half season to adjust to him in the first place.

Bobby Jenks does not throw 98 MPH, he topped out at 96.7 MPH yesterday, that gun was ridiculous at times.

[caulfield12]

We're really arguing about 1 MPH?

 

The point is, he was throwing as hard as he has all season long, true (maybe one of the Twins' games, he was higher)?

 

But I too questioned those numbers with Putz...if he was throwing 94-96, it was a flat/straight 96 with little life or movement. And his splitter obviously didn't split, it looked more like a BP fastball to Gonzalez, who's somehow leading the world in XB hits now.

Edited May 8, 2010 by caulfield12

[Kalapse]

We're really arguing about 1 MPH?

 

The point is, he was throwing as hard as he has all season long, true (maybe one of the Twins' games, he was higher)?

 

But I too questioned those numbers with Putz...if he was throwing 94-96, it was a flat/straight 96 with little life or movement. And his splitter obviously didn't split, it looked more like a BP fastball to Gonzalez, who's somehow leading the world in XB hits now.

I'm not arguing anything, just pointing out that Bobby Jenks doesn't throw 98 MPH which is a pretty big number in the world of baseball, I know it sure as s*** sounds better than 96.7 on the surfac.e

[Special K]

Is anybody going to even mention the fact that Guillen made a terrible decision to let Buehrle pitch the 8th? What is the point of having a lockdown 8th inning guy like Thornton if you don't use him in those spots. I won't even suggest the idea that he use Santos either, because that would make no sense for a guy who hasn't given up a run all year. I suppose Randy Williams is the only pitcher who deserves to be out there with the game on the line. Guillen is such a joke at managing our pitchers that he costs us tons of close games. It's unfortunate that Guillen wanted close games with the NL Lineup he's been begging for as well.